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What do I do for spacing with Mario?

Vyyruss

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 13, 2008
Messages
99
Location
Norfolk, VA
My friend uses Ike and Lucario, which both have ridoculous
amounts of reach in the air. I'm trying to break myself from
the habbit of rolling out of the way because I'm left too open
for follow-up attacks obviously. I'm new to Mario and havent
the slightest clue what to do to get a little distance.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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RPV, California
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A2ZOMG
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Shield?

Learn to SH Double B-air, D-air out of shield, and camp like hell I guess.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
5,718
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Bowie, MD
Keep your distance, fireball approach or Bair approach when it's safe. Get them to hit your shield from time to time.
 

Ray/Boshi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
363
Location
Louisiana
SH. Alot and often. Everytime you approach you don't necassarily have to attempt an attack. Half the battle is attacking, the other half avoiding, while looking for an clean opening. Fireballs, uncharged fludd even, just try to be awkwardly unpredictable at attacking opffensively.

F
 

Oblique

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
109
use fireballs, Bairs aren't that helpful against Ike but still try it when u know you can hit him, and shield one of the best ways that i use to beat Ike, Lucario don't know never faced one that wasn't a computer.
 

BRNO

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
4
SH'ing is always a good idea with Mario, especialy with how well Fireballs work with them in starting up combos. Midair Fireball to D-throw to any aerial is my personal fave.
 

Matt07

Smash Master
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
3,379
Location
Ontario, Canada
I dunno even I can't do SH double b-airs, only once in a while. I just use the c-stick, and mash on it, but about like 90% of the time it doesn't even work.
 

HeroMystic

Legacy of the Mario
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Aug 3, 2008
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HeroineYaoki
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It's actually rather easy.

As soon as you jump, B-air. When you're falling, B-air again.

It's like U-air, but the timing is more strict.
 

ThatGuy

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
3,089
Location
Laval-Ouest, Quebec, Canada
The thing I agree with is using fireballs.

I say you should inch your way in close. Use fireballs to keep them dodging/shielding (or getting hit) and use that small window to run inside their range. Try to read your opponent and anticipate if he/she will attack or expect a follow-up, and that's where you have to make the right decisions. If you see a slow but long attack coming, try to powershield it. If you shield, you'll get pushed too far to do anything about it. You could also try dodging, although I'd trust the PS more.

When you're close, mix up grabs and jabs. Ike only has one fast move which is his jab. Shield the first hit and Dsmash out of your shield or some balony. He's got some aerials that can zone you to the edge of the stage but you can either hit him before (AKA know when he will try to aerial) or PS the attack into whatever torture you like.

As for Lucario's aerials, I don't agree that he has massive reach, it's decent but definitely not insurmountable. He has pretty good priority which may be what confuses you there. You can however outrange him with Bairs. If he Dairs, clear some room and hit him at a safe angle or hit him when he gets down.
 

Matt07

Smash Master
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
3,379
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Ontario, Canada
This....


First time I did this to a MK player I 3 stocked them
Woah, nice! I'd have to agree with Monk here, I usually play by the edge with Mario too. That's Mario's best spot on the stage, well because you need to get them off the edge if you want to 'Gimp' K.O. them, and that's what Mario is good for.
 

Judge Judy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
1,638
Besdies what's already been said, try hard to abuse FIHL as much you can. Also, the cape is a nice follow up from FIHL.
 

Monk/Honkey/Banana

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
2,526
Location
Dunedin, FL(MWFL)
/disagree

That's a choice of playstyle. If you like hanging around the edge it's because you can't control the stage well enough.
...If I choose to go to the edge you have two options

1) Stay back and pray your character has projectiles

or

2) Try to run up and attack

sounds like I'm pretty much in control
 

SkylerOcon

Tiny Dancer
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
5,216
Location
ATX
ThatGuy apparently knows nothing of Mario. His best spot is near the edge. Just having the ability to get your opponent off the stage gives Mario an immediate advantage, because of his gimping abilities.
 

ThatGuy

Smash Master
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Messages
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Laval-Ouest, Quebec, Canada
That's not how I see it at all. I see it as a fight. You always have someone controlling the ring (in the center), and you have another hanging on the outside. Some fighters force others to be in whatever position they want their opponent to be in.

If you're comfortable dancing around the edge of the stage, so be it. Why do you bother letting go of the edge anyways? Stay on the edge and spam fireballs until time runs out.

However, if you're center stage underneath the platforms and not giving them an opportunity to attack effectively, how is that not controlling the game?

Hell, I'll turn your arguement around. You're on the edge and I'm spamming fireballs on your location, you have 2 options:

1) Pray you have projectiles to at least cancel mine
2) Try to get up and attack

Sounds like I'm pretty much in control.

As for the other reply, gimping abilities? Mario has better than average gimping abilities compared to some of the other cast, yet it counts for absolutely nothing in this game because every **** recovery is broken! Heck, any multi-jumper (MK, DDD, Kirby, Pit, etc.), and ROB have better gimping ability than Mario, to name a couple. It's too difficult to gimp in Brawl to make it worth investing all your effort into.

Skyler, the situation you describe means you are on the stage while your opponent is off. That's the ideal situation for any character in this game, because they're forced to recover and their options are obviously limited. That also means you're in control of the stage.

Basically, it comes down to this: If you're on the edge, you can use it to gain invincibility frames and stall for some time. Your opponent has no easy or direct way of attacking you. You can shoot some fireballs to keep them on their toes, however that's the only time you're really open for attack. You also have a chance to get your opponent off the edge with a throw, and rely on edgeguarding abilities to rack up damage or outright kill them.

However, it also means that you can't land any direct attacks at your opponent until you get up. If you get hit, it will hurt as they will be the ones edgeguarding you which may lead to a gimp as well. If you're losing, this is a very bad situation because you HAVE to get up, and it's pretty easy to hit someone getting up as the invincibility frames on the edge animations are very short and easily abused (the jump has none but you can attack fast out of it, but if they know you will jump you are seriously ****ed). They have plenty of ways to get you up when they want you to, via projectiles or purposely missing attacks to bait you into another.

Just to finalize my point, here's a vid of everyone's favorite Mario, Boss:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm5jKztiI-E

Notice how Boss always tries to get back to the middle of the stage, and when he's there he's firmly in control of the match? This is especially noticable from beginning to midway of the video. That's because the center of the stage is a critical area that you need to hold; you have great protection from the platforms, therefore it's harder for them to attack you and easier to attack them. Later on he's forced towards the edges and gets punished when he tries to get back in the center because the Marth read him (such as how CK baited Boss to roll inwards into a couple sword dances), which forced Boss back outside and left the Marth player in control.

This isn't even about spacing anymore. It's about controlling the stage, and learning what position you stand in and how to improve it.

Call me out if you think I know absolutely nothing about Mario, because I sure as hell know how to play this game.
 

HeroMystic

Legacy of the Mario
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Okay then... let me try to settle this.

Mario works both in the middle of the stage and on the edge of the stage. What Mario should do depends completely on the character.

You obviously wouldn't go to the edge against a player against Marth, an opponent that can easily knock Mario off the edge and keep him off the edge, but an opponent such as Bowser that has crap corner pressure besides his Bowsercide, Mario can easily go to edge, spam fireballs to approach, and knock him off the edge and gimp the crap out of him.

Saying Mario can't do one or the either is completely silly when Mario has the tools to do both.

Apply the situation, take the best action.
 

ThatGuy

Smash Master
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Messages
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Laval-Ouest, Quebec, Canada
Okay then... let me try to settle this.

Mario works both in the middle of the stage and on the edge of the stage. What Mario should do depends completely on the character.

You obviously wouldn't go to the edge against a player against Marth, an opponent that can easily knock Mario off the edge and keep him off the edge, but an opponent such as Bowser that has crap corner pressure besides his Bowsercide, Mario can easily go to edge, spam fireballs to approach, and knock him off the edge and gimp the crap out of him.

Saying Mario can't do one or the either is completely silly when Mario has the tools to do both.

Apply the situation, take the best action.
I agree wholeheartedly, I just want to add to this.

It's not only about the character; it's about the opponent, the stage, and what skills you're comfortable to rely on that will determine what you should or shouldn't do in a match. Not every Bowser player will have crappy corner pressure, and you have to be prepared for that.
 

HeroMystic

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Yeah, it obviously depends on your opponent's playstyle and skills as well.

I try to go to both the edge and the middle of the stage moderately, but I have this bad habit of just staying on the edge due to playing CPUs. x.x Gotta break that habit.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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I'd agree with ThatGuy if we were using...say...Marth. But we're not. The center of the stage really doesn't offer Mario much control or protection since we don't have the range, priority, or projectiles to protect ourselves and force the opponent to vary their approach or anything of that nature.

Near the ledge, however, we force them to approach. They can't projectile camp us because of the cape and must approach US instead. From there, we read and react, which is infinitely better than being on the blind offensive. Reacting, as opposed to attacking in brawl, is always the better decision because of the heavy defensive game. That's from my understanding anyways. I don't think Monk meant ON the ledge, I think he meant near it. Not sure if you confused the two or I read wrong.

As for the other reply, gimping abilities? Mario has better than average gimping abilities compared to some of the other cast, yet it counts for absolutely nothing in this game because every **** recovery is broken! Heck, any multi-jumper (MK, DDD, Kirby, Pit, etc.), and ROB have better gimping ability than Mario, to name a couple. It's too difficult to gimp in Brawl to make it worth investing all your effort into.
I'd have to disagree with ROB, Pit, and Kirby having better gimping than Mario. And it doesn't matter if a recovery is broken, all it takes is one cape for most to snatch a stock, be it D3 or DK. And gimping in Brawl is not THAT difficult, just harder than melee is all.
 

ThatGuy

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I said control the stage, not a blind offensive.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=KgKlTbUPr_4 Boss vs. Azen (Pika)
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=swRlav0qs6U Boss vs. Korn (Meta)
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=f1RV2oolCY0 Boss vs. Candy (Wolf)

I'm just plucking vids from the Mario vid thread, and people seem to unanimously pick Boss as the best Mario due to his tournament results. I also believe Boss is a good Mario based on what the Toronto people that played him at CH4 said (those are the guys that beat me pretty easily). Point to me some vids where Boss voluntarily runs to the edge for strategic advantages, because from the vids I watch he's always fighting for the focal point.

My theory is that people are so used to getting pushed towards the edge of the stage that they believe the edge is the best bet because they're so used to being there.

EDIT: I have to concede that the edge can be a decent place against Meta however simply because his Tornado really forces you out there.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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I'd rather control my opponent than to control the stage, especially as Mario. If I were DK and I ran to the edge to try and produce the same result...well suffice it to say I wouldn't do too well. In the center of the stage, however, I have the advantage. Wherever the opponent goes, I can punish them before they get there and I potentially knock them offstage for a spike or edgeguard. Why? Because I have range, power, priority, and I'm not running the risk of eating projectile spam because I'm constantly in their safe area. Same deal with Marth, Olimar, MK, or Snake especially.

As Mario from the center of the stage, I can sort of do the same...but not really. Mario doesn't have range, or tons of priority. Even when controlling the stage, we aren't priority or range demons and don't have the power to deter risky approaches. Our projectile isn't even good for camping to the degree of ROB's or Link's projectiles. BUT, we have the cape, projectiles, AND excellent gimping, making the edge a more fitting area for Mario. There, we're safe from range and priority that'd normally charge right through us with minimal risk.

I don't know why Boss runs to the middle, and I don't pretend to know why. Maybe he can read his opponents well enough that Mario's inherent disadvantages don't effect him nearly as much and he can capitalize consistently. Or it could be something as simple as hating being offstage and not feeling safe near the edge. Either way, it's his preference. Aniki doesn't wavedash and Lucky (top Sonic main) doesn't ASC. Clearly good techs with nothing but positive results from their practice, but the best of the best don't use them. Same applies here.

Just playing devil's advocate btw. I personally don't have a preference. I fight from where I stand when my opponent reaches me, despite obvious advantages I could have.
 
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