What changes, if any, would you like to see from Luigi in future updates?

[Cubelarooso]

I have a mental threshold of when to bother with Bthrow, which I keep moving back as it keeps disappointing me. I'm up to 180% at this point. I suppose I should just do so lab work to find a conclusive answer.
I'm fine with it not killing, as Luigi can usually get some finisher off of Dthrow.

A random, non-gameplay idea occurred to me today:
In Melee, Cyclone was some horrible cream-yellow color. I kinda miss that, but figure if it's gonna change graphically at all it should do so in a way that holds up to Mario's stars. So I figure, why not give the move a whole lotta dust, in reference to how Luigi's Mansion was used to show off GCN's particle abilities?

 

[Elza~]

I was just looking back and reading the scenario about how "breaking shields is so uncommon...."

I am not sure what you guys do for your "shield pressure", but that isn't uncommon for me as I have personally busted a lot of shields. At my tournament on Wednesday I got 4. At tonight's tournament I got 3. One being on Sethlon(Friendlies).

 

[Broasty]

I was just looking back and reading the scenario about how "breaking shields is so uncommon...."

I am not sure what you guys do for your "shield pressure", but that isn't uncommon for me as I have personally busted a lot of shields. At my tournament on Wednesday I got 4. At tonight's tournament I got 3. One being on Sethlon(Friendlies).

Certain matchups I've been extremely close, but I've yet to have an opponent pull out a shield when they shouldn't...they'd rather take the hit every time. The matchup I've been the closest is Kirby since you can stop her campiness with perfectly spaced SH->Dair->FF->Waveland backwards. Most matchups though, people will either grab me with the range I have or use a OOS Fair to beat my aerial mobility.

The big difference between a pillar and a normal shield break is that a pillar involves starting from a point where one would normally feel safe pulling out a shield...at least, that's the way I see it. Having that powerful shield break would allow for stuff like SH->Dair->Nair->L-Cancel->DTilt (on the backside of opponent so they can't grab).

 

[Elza~]

Certain matchups I've been extremely close, but I've yet to have an opponent pull out a shield when they shouldn't...they'd rather take the hit every time. The matchup I've been the closest is Kirby since you can stop her campiness with perfectly spaced SH->Dair->FF->Waveland backwards. Most matchups though, people will either grab me with the range I have or use a OOS Fair to beat my aerial mobility.

The big difference between a pillar and a normal shield break is that a pillar involves starting from a point where one would normally feel safe pulling out a shield...at least, that's the way I see it. Having that powerful shield break would allow for stuff like SH->Dair->Nair->L-Cancel->DTilt (on the backside of opponent so they can't grab).

Depending on the character, you can actually D-tilt from the front and still be safe. Just take in to account grab range of said character. Also, after some experimentation, I noticed If you have done some damage to a shield already and have it at a relatively small size, you can shatter it with a Fire Jump Punch. That move basically has D-tilt properties, and I actually think it does slightly more shield damage, granted it isn't perfect shielded. I would recommend doing this from a point you can fade back to a ledge/or platform cancel it to make yourself recover faster. It has a lot of shield stun so it is actually harder than you may think for someone to punish you for it.

It may sound silly to others to do that, but I play Luigi "High Risk/High Reward". One of the quotes I heard last night was "Who uses D-tilt like that!?"

 

[Broasty]

Depending on the character, you can actually D-tilt from the front and still be safe. Just take in to account grab range of said character. Also, after some experimentation, I noticed If you have done some damage to a shield already and have it at a relatively small size, you can shatter it with a Fire Jump Punch. That move basically has D-tilt properties, and I actually think it does slightly more shield damage, granted it isn't perfect shielded. I would recommend doing this from a point you can fade back to a ledge/or platform cancel it to make yourself recover faster. It has a lot of shield stun so it is actually harder than you may think for someone to punish you for it.

It may sound silly to others to do that, but I play Luigi "High Risk/High Reward". One of the quotes I heard last night was "Who uses D-tilt like that!?"

I'm really trying hard to go for shield breaks, believe me, I'd LOVE to get that consistently haha. I've actually had a few instantly where I was SO close, went for the Dtilt and due to the shield being too small, it poked the player hurtbox and didn't contribute the shield (which would've broke).

 

[MudkipUniverse]

for some reason, I am worse with luigi in PM then in Melee. maybe it's just that the colors throw me off.

 

[Broasty]

for some reason, I am worse with luigi in PM then in Melee. maybe it's just that the colors throw me off.

Completely different balance on a similar character. Notice how my main for Melee is Young Link...whenever I play Melee Luigi, I get hit during combos because I know PM Luigi instinctively. I'd recommend moving this conversation towards the Luigi Discussion Thread of the Differences Between Melee and PM Luigi thread for the sake of keeping this area on topic (who knows, PMBR might take ideas!).

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Completely different balance on a similar character. Notice how my main for Melee is Young Link...whenever I play Melee Luigi, I get hit during combos because I know PM Luigi instinctively. I'd recommend moving this conversation towards the Luigi Discussion Thread of the Differences Between Melee and PM Luigi thread for the sake of keeping this area on topic (who knows, PMBR might take ideas!).

I certainly don't want the PMBR to take my ideas. Screw that.

 

[Broasty]

I certainly don't want the PMBR to take my ideas. Screw that.

Lol I would LOVE to be able to Wave Scuttle both directions...just saying

 

[Cubelarooso]

But then the PMDT would get all the fame and money while you get nothing!

 

[MudkipUniverse]

But then the PMDT would get all the fame and money while you get nothing!

exactly. BUT WHAT MONEY

 

[Cubelarooso]

All the royalties he'd get whenever anyone wavescuttled rightward!

Anyway back on topic.
Having the worm thing as both a taunt and victory pose is rather redundant (especially for something Sakurai just made up) and should be rectified eventually. Personally, I'm partial to his Smash 64 pelvic scoot.

 

[Broasty]

But then the PMDT would get all the fame and money while you get nothing!

For a split second there, I thought of a vivid picture featuring the PMDT rolling around in mounds of cash...then I laughed my ****ing butt off.

All the royalties he'd get whenever anyone wavescuttled rightward!

Anyway back on topic.
Having the worm thing as both a taunt and victory pose is rather redundant (especially for something Sakurai just made up) and should be rectified eventually. Personally, I'm partial to his Smash 64 pelvic scoot.

CAN THIS PLEASE HAPPEN

 

[Cubelarooso]

Here's a dumb idea I like:
One thing I actually liked about Brawl was that Luigi had an animation where his head gets stuck in the wall. What if Luigi could do that by holding taunt as he Missiles into a wall, then went into specialfall when he gets out?

 

[Boomer3d]

I've been off the smashboards for a little bit but I am so happy the term wave-scuttle caught on. I did personally make a request to make it work both ways so we will see.

 

[1FD]

I'm sure people around here no about this but with wavescuttle you can just slide into attacks while keeping momentum in other ways.
Like WD forward scuttle back for like a frame and instantly slide forward ftilting.
Or WD backward and scuttle forward for a frame and instantly slide backward ftilting.
Of course it only works the one way I guess but basically you get a WD without needing to WD if you wavescuttle first.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I'd like some changes to his DA, making it actually less punishable for starters.
And the obvious wave scuttle both ways (I REALLY need to use this more).

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I'd actually like some changes to luigi tornado; not everyone has a turbo controller that is tournament usable you know.

Maybe decrease maximum height but increase how much the B button rises you up.

 

[Elza~]

I'd actually like some changes to luigi tornado; not everyone has a turbo controller that is tournament usable you know.

Maybe decrease maximum height but increase how much the B button rises you up.

That would make his Cyclone way too good of a move is they were to do that. They already made it to where it doesn't need to be used on-stage before you can use it off-stage.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

That would make his Cyclone way too good of a move is they were to do that. They already made it to where it doesn't need to be used on-stage before you can use it off-stage.

It wouldn't mean it would be too good; it would just increase the no. of luigi professionals by taking away a very bad excuse for a learning curve. There is like 4 notable mains in Melee/PM because of this.

but basically, yeah, it would be op

 

[Elza~]

I am not a Luigi professional, but I can do it consistently(I plan to be though). It just takes practice. I believe I have achieved almost the maximum height from doing it so much now.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

It wouldn't mean it would be too good; it would just increase the no. of luigi professionals by taking away a very bad excuse for a learning curve. There is like 4 notable mains in Melee/PM because of this.

but basically, yeah, it would be op

His Luigi tornado rise is pretty easy in PM. Honestly it's fine as it is

 

[Daeeedal]

As mentioned before, I'd like to see the amount of inputs required to get full vertical lift off of the Weegee-nado reduced. I don't know if the amount has been upped from Brawl, but I feel like I have to mash so hard to make it even remotely usable for recovery. On the ground it's easy as pie, but it feels like the aerial version takes 2-3x as many B spams.

Without it, Luigi's recovery is super predictable. Even with it, it's pretty predictable when you're investing your entire being into mashing B.

Also I can't tell if Mario's rate of fire (geddit) on his neutral B has been upped since Melee/Brawl (since I didn't play him often), but if Luigi's fireball speed matched Mario's, I'd be a happy camper (quite literally).

Personally, I'm partial to his Smash 64 pelvic scoot.

Also this

 

[Broasty]

As mentioned before, I'd like to see the amount of inputs required to get full vertical lift off of the Weegee-nado reduced. I don't know if the amount has been upped from Brawl, but I feel like I have to mash so hard to make it even remotely usable for recovery. On the ground it's easy as pie, but it feels like the aerial version takes 2-3x as many B spams.

Without it, Luigi's recovery is super predictable. Even with it, it's pretty predictable when you're investing your entire being into mashing B.

Also I can't tell if Mario's rate of fire (geddit) on his neutral B has been upped since Melee/Brawl (since I didn't play him often), but if Luigi's fireball speed matched Mario's, I'd be a happy camper (quite literally).




Also this

Honestly, the mash isn't that hard. Personally, it's like a reminder to me of "Hey, you F'd up, you shouldn't be off stage." since as a Luigi player, you DON'T want to be offstage...or better put...you don't want to get hit period lol.

Dude, trust me, buffing fireball speed would be ******** how OP it'd be. You wanna know why? Right now, if you throw out a fireball with correct spacing, you have an almost guaranteed follow up on most matchups, provided your execution and reaction time to the reaction of the opponent is on point. On taller characters (Bowser, Ganondorf, DDD, DK) an appropriately spaced Wavelanded Fireball hitconfirm leads into a GUARANTEED Shoruken, USmash, DSmash, or Grab. The fireball is also really good for edgeguard if used intelligently. if you get Marth from the distance with one while he's offstage, he's dead. Some matchups like Link allow for offstage setups for Dair follow ups.

In principle, the fireball is great tool to use IF you have the spacing to do it. You can't abuse it, but it can be a viable tool to fight campy players til you can break their CC.

However, let's think about what Luigi could do if he had the fireball speed of Mairo.

Due to Luigi's WD, majority of Luigi neutral would be this:
Fireball->WD->Something

I can tell you for majority of the matchups, the beginning 40% would be Fireball->WD->Grab, CG tech chase, 40%-75% Fireball->WD(or dash)->Dair, finally at 75% or more, Fireball->WD->Shoruken. It'l basically be a more braindead Falco/Mario. The fireball edgeguard would be ridiculous since you already can rack up a good 14% each time if you play your cards right when edgeguarding.

Hell, honestly Mario's current fireball speed is a little too quick, I'd speculate it's going to get slowed down just be of how dumb the neutral has become for Mario...at least Falco can't afford to take a hit.

And if you're looking for tools to get in, OnFullTilt made a pretty awesome guide, though as a far as application goes Luigi's "textbook" is still in its extremely early phases. For the most part, you need to wiff punish approachers and fireball til CC limit campers (see link below, thanks Cubelarooso). The only times you go "in" is to chase your opponent retreating or place extremely well spaced shield pressure (great for abusing lower level player's lack of OoS option knowledge). At least, that's my two cents. Take it for what you will.

CC Limit by Cubelarooso (same chart, I just did some formatting)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sDF7Gyj3kEjPWIPfc92biaOPHbuV0LrZTX6nrppag0s/edit?usp=sharing

 

[1FD]

I just made this post but it's luigi related but basically the application of wavescuttling can be done both ways already if you do it like this. There are 2 locals (VL and bamesy) who do it. VL isn't a good player but he does this lots so he's good at doing it but doesn't use it properly. Bamesy doesn't play luigi and hasn't since 2.6 but he's actually good and used it well when he did play him. He basically showed VL how and what to do with it and it's crazy what this opens for luigi even though Luigi is already stupid good.

this post and the quote of myself IN this post

 

[Daeeedal]

[weegee knowledge bomb]

While I would still feel the rate of mashing for Down-B is a bit high, you make a good point. And I do agree that his fireball is fine, the suggestion was for the sake of puns lol.

As much as I'd like OP Luigi, fireball rate isn't even something I'd care to see buffed much, if anything I'd like it to have better range.

Also another OP suggestion, it would be awesome if fireballs floated only when holding B, but then gained gravity/bounced like Mario's when you let go.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Insofar as actual changes for Luigi goes, he's so damn limited, he needs more tools. I know in their latest post they said they are toning mostly everyone down, but I think Luigi needs a tone UP, personally. He's pretty much a carbon copy of Melee Luigi with a storage misfire and very small changes (Dtilt I guess).

I'd like to see his D-Throw get revamped, it could at least work like Smash 4 if they don't wanna redo the animation. That would give Luigi a really reliable setup into almost anything within his diverse air game. As far as other things, a very minor air speed increase by a minute but noticeable amount would give Luigi a way to make more use of his aerials and the supposed range buff. Honestly I think one of or both of these two things combined would help him a lot.

Also change Dtilt it's pretty stupid lol. You can make it hit shields hard but right now it's laughably unsafe on hit and is really just there to be funny IMO. I think they should just make it pop up like in Melee except at lower %s so he can actually poke with his Dtilt and do something with it.

 

[Elza~]

Insofar as actual changes for Luigi goes, he's so damn limited, he needs more tools. I know in their latest post they said they are toning mostly everyone down, but I think Luigi needs a tone UP, personally. He's pretty much a carbon copy of Melee Luigi with a storage misfire and very small changes (Dtilt I guess).

I'd like to see his D-Throw get revamped, it could at least work like Smash 4 if they don't wanna redo the animation. That would give Luigi a really reliable setup into almost anything within his diverse air game. As far as other things, a very minor air speed increase by a minute but noticeable amount would give Luigi a way to make more use of his aerials and the supposed range buff. Honestly I think one of or both of these two things combined would help him a lot.

Also change Dtilt it's pretty stupid lol. You can make it hit shields hard but right now it's laughably unsafe on hit and is really just there to be funny IMO. I think they should just make it pop up like in Melee except at lower %s so he can actually poke with his Dtilt and do something with it.

The only moves I have an issue with is his Dash Attack, and Misfire. I lose a stock everytime I accidentally use DA because how long it lasts. Misfire because it is a move that hits for 25% that has absolutely no priority. I have been standing jabbed out of a misfire by Pikachu, and there was no trade. I can understand a disjoint beating it out, but a non-disjoint move that does 2% beating it out is unacceptable.

As another note, his meteor hitbox on his D-air is rather unreliable and always tends to come out when I want the send out...

His D-tilt may be stupid, but it actually works. Frame-trapping people with the D-tilt leads to a ridiculous amount of damage.

 

[Stride]

He's pretty much a carbon copy of Melee Luigi with a storage misfire and very small changes (Dtilt I guess).

Check this thread; Luigi has received quite a few changes: http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-the-differences-between-melee-luigi-and-pm-luigi.365619/

I just want to emphasise how good tornado is now. Also waveland fireballs are good; you know when you do a Vududash and hit the opponent with the fireball, then hit them while they're still in hitstun or otherwise before they can act? You can do that from anywhere now. Generally Luigi has been made more reliable (easy or guaranteed misfire setups, for example).

I'd like to see his D-Throw get revamped, it could at least work like Smash 4 if they don't wanna redo the animation. That would give Luigi a really reliable setup into almost anything within his diverse air game..

Concerning down throw, it already combos quite reliably into aerials (down throw forward air all day against Marth), but in the event that the opponent DIs out, Luigi can often take advantage of his mobility to follow up regardless (often by wavelanding out), with the application of pressure if not with an actual hit. Also, he already has quite absurdly reliable setups for his aerials in the form of tornado and weak neutral air, both of which are difficult or impossible to DI such that the followup aerial can be avoided. They work across a wide range of percentages and characters (tornado is ridiculous against floaty and semi-floaty characters).

 

[TTTTTsd]

I still think he's relatively low-cut compared to the other veterans who received massive changes which leaves him feeling like he got the short end of the stick. Even with Tornado being better among other things, I cite a slight increase in airspeed as a reasonable buff as he received this in Melee SD Remix (very good rebalancing of Melee), and it didn't massively break or ruin him at all, and while it was a very minor speed buff even numerically, it gave him more versatility and made his aerial kit even better. I also wouldn't mind dash attack not outright sucking (it doesn't have to be super good but right now it's pretty bad)

I just think he's underwhelming to play as in this when you compare him to other veterans who turned out better.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Turn this:

Into this:

 

[Cubelarooso]

I believe Luigi already is slightly more aerially mobile than Melee. In any case, it's a part of the character, and it's not really so crippling a weakness to need attendance. Just because other characters are too strong does not mean Luigi is too weak.
Dtilt has its uses, fits quite well with the rest of Luigi's kit, and I don't think there's anything it could do that Luigi might want. That last one goes for Dash Attack, too, and it being bad actually does serve the purpose of encouraging the player to get better, which would be a lesson less learned if it were less punishing.

PS PLEASE NO GREEN HIT EFFECT.

 

[otek]

To be honest, I think Luigi is good as he is and doesn't need any changes. I feel like he can beat anyone. Maybe not on paper, but fortunately Smash is not a game played on the paper

 

[Cubelarooso]

But what if you CP to Yoshi's Story?

 

[SM_SC11]

I would love to see his Down special work as did it brawl... This "change" from brawl is the biggest nerf Luigi has ever received in my opinion. Completely destroys options for recovery angles. I hate that it drops first then goes back up, in brawl, the momentum would continue upward if you jump then down special, and spam tapping B he'd rise in a smooth progression, now he drops out of the sky, and then starts a movement back up. Completely ruined my Luigi play, he was always my first choice from n64 through brawl, and this In PM made me not main him

I know his Melee down special functioned more like his PM down special (luigi cyclone) however in melee the mechanics were much different than PM, as much as PM may want to resemble melee, it seems as if this is an attempt to be like melee so much that it absolutely alters how luigi players can get back. It forces them to be extremely predictable if recovering from certain areas. Granted, brawl wasn't perfect, but the luigi cyclone was so much more versatile, now it feels like a crappy one trick pony in regards to recovering.

 

[CBO0tz]

The Brawl cyclone mechanics would be good, but since its easier to climb upward in PM with the cyclone by mashing B, having the ability to recover faster and higher would probably be too much.

 

[SM_SC11]

The Brawl cyclone mechanics would be good, but since its easier to climb upward in PM with the cyclone by mashing B, having the ability to recover faster and higher would probably be too much.

it just seems as if he is so low tier, this won't be the turning point that make him OP, but it will just give him some better options for mobility. Take away the ability to gain upward momentum from a dead stop if you need to, luigi is a wonky character, having his recovery be less predictable fits right into his play style. Having it do the bizarre, drop then gain a ton of upward movement seems out of place, overly predictable, and in my experience down right bad. His brawl recovery was so beautiful, I just imagine it with the flashing indicator of a misfire, and having a luigi that is actually not trash in PM

 

[Cubelarooso]

I never mentioned the nerfs I think Luigi could use to be better designed, partly because I assumed that's all that anyone who plays any other character would think about changing, and partly because I'd rather not get nerfs worse than other players would allow for their characters. But here it is, from most to least supported.

• Revert Grounded Cyclone to Melee. I'm not sure what it is, and I don't mean the ability to rise, but Cylone was just a less-great approach in Melee, and I think it's too good now. I think it might have been the acceleration or something? It seems like the delay between the hits was shortened in PM, even though that's factually incorrect. The second hit lasts a lot longer, so that may play into it. I don't think the hitboxes themselves are any different, but maybe the different animation (where his arms aren't perfectly horizontal) has unintended consequences?
  
• Rising Cyclone requires 1 frame of Idle animation or one complete Grounded Cyclone to recharge. Melee's recharge mechanic was dumb, but it kept Luigi's recovery in check. While incredibly interceptable, I still think it's just a bit better than ideal, and this seems like a fair compromise. Alternatively, Cyclone could work like it does now but require Melee mashing, unless you charge it with a Grounded Cyclone in which case it's as good as currently.

Below this line I'm not sure is warranted, but I don't think would be totally unfair.

• Remove drift after Up-B, a la Melee, both to make recovery worse and so he can't easily avoid the punishment off a wiffed sweetspot through edge-cancelling.
  
• Make Misfires weaker at close range. Being able to combo into death occasionally leaves a bad, Foxy taste in my mouth.
• Reduce ledge grab range. It's real nice for subtle mixups now, but it looks kinda jank.
• No Slimeball waveland. Really want, but don't need.
  
• Melee dthrow.

 

[CBO0tz]

If they reverted the Cyclone to Melee mechanics, they should at least add Brawl's vertical climb mechanic to it as well. I'd rather spend a lot of energy trying to recover and be at in a good tactical advantage, than to spend a lot of energy and getting spiked.

Also, what's this about slime that people keep talking about? Its obviously green PH1RE.

 

[Cubelarooso]

If it's teh ph1re, then how come it doesn't melt teh phr0zen?