What are your top 10 players?

[Spak]

1. Which tournament was this? That sounds wack af. What kind of tournament has 17 people, 7 of which are NOTABLE out of state?
2. But that's also like saying android is top 20 in the world.
3. Plup has been doing way better than lucky recently. Taking multiple sets off hungrybox, 2 off leffen, and one off mango. Lucky beat HBox at press start, and that's about it. Not saying lucky isn't top 10 material, but he just shouldn't be above Plup.
4. Hugs, SFat and Plup to 3rd place isn't easy? LOL

1. http://smashboards.com/rankings/vgc-evo-sponsorship-tournament-melee-singles.1340/event (Correction, 6 notable)
2. Fair enough.
3. Lucky has a total of 3 large tournament wins, the first of which only happened last December and spanned until May of this year. Plup only has one, and that was over a year ago. Lucky has 22 notable doubles wins (the most recent being May of this year), and Plup only has 9 (the most recent being January of this year). If you look at the tourney results, Plup has been more consistent in placing top 16, but Lucky gets first MUCH more often.
4. So you're saying that the person who knocked Leffen out of the tournament, one of the top three Foxes of the west coast, and one of the other best-known Samuses in Smash history isn't a tough top 16?

EDIT: Never mind, the tourney was much larger; it just only showed the top 17 players in the rankings.

 

[Dolla Pills]

4. So you're saying that the person who knocked Leffen out of the tournament, one of the top three Foxes of the west coast, and one of the other best-known Samuses in Smash history isn't a tough top 16?

I know you weren't talking to me directly, but despite making it through winners PP didn't make a phenomenal run through bracket that would cement him as number one (you can see my reasoning in my previous post if you didn't read it).
And none of Armada, Hbox, or Plup had easy brackets either but they all made it through winners to top eight too. Actually Hbox and Plup both faced and beat two different top five players which is a lot more than PP can say (granted only one of those victories happened per player before top eight, but still).

 

[Spak]

I know you weren't talking to me directly, but despite making it through winners PP didn't make a phenomenal run through bracket that would cement him as number one (you can see my reasoning in my previous post if you didn't read it).
And none of Armada, Hbox, or Plup had easy brackets either but they all made it through winners to top eight too. Actually Hbox and Plup both faced and beat two different top five players which is a lot more than PP can say (granted only one of those victories happened per player before top eight, but still).

And you're basing all of this upon merely one national, where the last national he participated in (only half a year ago) he got first place. He doesn't do very well at EVOs in general; 2014 he got beat up pretty bad by Leffen and I think the highest he ever got at an EVO was 3rd (this year). I don't think you can say that he wasn't having a bad day for the exact reason you said I can't say he was having a bad day, but he might also be a bit out of practice; the main Raleigh area's locals went on hiatus for who knows how long.

 

[Dolla Pills]

And you're basing all of this upon merely one national, where the last national he participated in (only half a year ago) he got first place. He doesn't do very well at EVOs in general; 2014 he got beat up pretty bad by Leffen and I think the highest he ever got at an EVO was 3rd (this year). I don't think you can say that he wasn't having a bad day for the exact reason you said I can't say he was having a bad day, but he might also be a bit out of practice; the main Raleigh area's locals went on hiatus for who knows how long.

It seems you too are basing all of this off of one major, and it was six months ago.

 

[Spak]

It seems you too are basing all of this off of one major, and it was six months ago.

Fine then, let's look at another national. Oh wait, these are the only two recent ones, so these are the only two points of reference. One of which he beat Armada by a slim margin, the other of which he lost to Armada by a small margin. Like I said earlier, there is no definite way to tell which is better than the other because we only have two points of recent reference and the sets were super close both times.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Fine then, let's look at another national. Oh wait, these are the only two recent ones, so these are the only two points of reference. One of which he beat Armada by a slim margin, the other of which he lost to Armada by a small margin. Like I said earlier, there is no definite way to tell which is better than the other because we only have two points of recent reference and the sets were super close both times.

Um he lost to Armada by a pretty wide margin at Evo and he didn't even get second even though he probably had an easier bracket than Hbox.

Anyway, although Apex put him at number one in the world at the time it has been six months and his performance at Evo clearly shows he is no longer number one in the world. If you say anything else about his Evo performance you are fanboying to the point of no longer being reasonable.

Now, if PP gets his head and heart back in the game I can easily see him going back to number one. But you can't look at a man who goes to tournaments every six months and say he is the best in the world if he doesn't win everything.

 

[Spak]

Um he lost to Armada by a pretty wide margin at Evo and he didn't even get second even though he probably had an easier bracket than Hbox.

Anyway, although Apex put him at number one in the world at the time it has been six months and his performance at Evo clearly shows he is no longer number one in the world. If you say anything else about his Evo performance you are fanboying to the point of no longer being reasonable.

Now, if PP gets his head and heart back in the game I can easily see him going back to number one. But you can't look at a man who goes to tournaments every six months and say he is the best in the world if he doesn't win everything.

I'll go over the Winner's and Loser's where PP got knocked out:

Winner's Finals:
G1: Even (both were 0% at one stock at the same time), but then PP gets only 17% on Armada on the last stock.
G2: Same as G1, but Armada was at 64%.
G3: Armada gets in his head and PP has 32% when Armada's last stock comes around and PP gets 4%.

Against the "best player in the world", he was ahead for about half the time until G3. A raw tipper could have made PP win Game 2.

Now, Loser's Finals:
G1: PP was in the lead all game until he got gimped by the wall of Fairs, game ends with HBox at 51%.
G2: Decisive 3-Stock for HBox. You can see post-game that he was feeling a LOT of pressure.
G3: He would have won if the transformation was 8-10 seconds later, HBox is lucky that tree was there. HBox at 105%.

Other than Game 2 of the HBox set, I don't see how you could say that PP lost any of his matches against the other gods by a wide margin.

I do see where you're coming from, though. Since Armada has been at more major tournaments recently (CEO 2015, WTFox, etc.) I guess I can't say that PP is number one in placings right now. I still think he's the best player, but he just doesn't go to enough tournaments to prove it.

 

[Dolla Pills]

I'll go over the Winner's and Loser's where PP got knocked out:

Winner's Finals:
G1: Even (both were 0% at one stock at the same time), but then PP gets only 17% on Armada on the last stock.
G2: Same as G1, but Armada was at 64%.
G3: Armada gets in his head and PP has 32% when Armada's last stock comes around and PP gets 4%.

Against the "best player in the world", he was ahead for about half the time until G3. A raw tipper could have made PP win Game 2.

Now, Loser's Finals:
G1: PP was in the lead all game until he got gimped by the wall of Fairs, game ends with HBox at 51%.
G2: Decisive 3-Stock for HBox. You can see post-game that he was feeling a LOT of pressure.
G3: He would have won if the transformation was 8-10 seconds later, HBox is lucky that tree was there. HBox at 105%.

Other than Game 2 of the HBox set, I don't see how you could say that PP lost any of his matches against the other gods by a wide margin.

I do see where you're coming from, though. Since Armada has been at more major tournaments recently (CEO 2015, WTFox, etc.) I guess I can't say that PP is number one in placings right now. I still think he's the best player, but he just doesn't go to enough tournaments to prove it.

Yeah the games were close but the sets weren't (unlike Apex where the sets were close too) which was really what I meant. Anyway that's besides the point, I think we understand each other now.

 

[JipC]

1-2: Leffen, Armada
3-4: Mango, PPMD
5: HBox
6: M2k
7-8: Axe, Westballz
9-10: Shroomed, SFat
~~~~~
11-13: PewPewU, Plup, Wobbles
14: aMSa
People in the same tier are in no particular order.

 

[EddyBearr]

Angrybox is the best player in the world. He just doesn't do good at any tournaments that aren't Apex 2010 or MVG-sponsored. He almost does as well as he actually is at EVOs, but those don't reflect his true skill, and since we don't see Apex 2010 level Angrybox at nearly enough events, we should probably focus on Apex 2010.

 

[Spak]

Angrybox is the best player in the world. He just doesn't do good at any tournaments that aren't Apex 2010 or MVG-sponsored. He almost does as well as he actually is at EVOs, but those don't reflect his true skill, and since we don't see Apex 2010 level Angrybox at nearly enough events, we should probably focus on Apex 2010.

I completely agree; Hungryfox isn't all that great... No way I would put him in the top 100.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

1-2: Leffen, Armada
3-4: Mango, PPMD
5: HBox
6: M2k
7-8: Axe, Westballz
9-10: Shroomed, SFat
~~~~~
11-13: PewPewU, Plup, Wobbles
14: aMSa
People in the same tier are in no particular order.

Plup not even in top 10?

 

[Dolla Pills]

So I think some people underrate Leffen so I pulled together some tournament placing data and updated my previous list.

Spoiler

Tournaments where top six have outplaced Leffen year:

Armada: Apex, Beauty 10, INY, Sandstorm, DrømeLAN 4.5, Evo
HBox: Paragon, Sandstorm, Press Start, Evo
Mango: INY, Press Start, BAM 7
M2K: Paragon, Press Start
PP: Apex, Evo

Now where Leffen has outplaced the others:

Armada: BEAST V, Paragon, CEO, FC, WTFox
Mango: BEAST V, Apex, CEO, WTFox
HBox: Apex, CEO, FC
M2K: Apex, Sandstorm if you count it, WTFox, SSC
PP: none

Now let’s take a look at tournaments won with other top 6 in attendance this year:

Leffen: BEAST V, CEO, FC, WTFox, SSC
Armada: Beauty 10, INY, Sandstorm, DrømeLAN 4.5, Evo
Mango: Press Start, BAM 7
PP: Apex
Hbox: Paragon
M2K: none
Average placing with other top 6 present this year:
Armada: 19/10=1.9
PP: 4/2=2
Leffen: 39/14= 2.8 (rounded up)
Mango: 28/10= 2.8
HBox: 23/7= 3.3
M2K: 24/5= 4.8

And Leffen's tournament sets with other top six this year (Leffen - top player):
PP: 0-1
Mango: 3-3
Hbox: 2-2
Armada: 7-6
M2K: 5-1

And sets dropped to non top six players this year:
Armada: 0 (hasn't dropped one since 2010)
PP: 0
Leffen: 5 (Plup x2, Hugs, Axe, Sfat)
M2K: 6 (Shroomed, Wobbles x2, Axe x3)
Mango: 7 (Plup, Fiction, Axe, Shroomed, Westballz x3)
Hbox: 4 (Wizzy, PPU, Lucky, Westballz) + as many as he has lost to Colbol and Plup which is at least one but probably more

My interpretations of these stats/ my updated list:
(DISCLAIMER- I compiled the stats to demonstrate Leffen's current skill in a factual manner, but some of the following opinions have to do with other stuff)

Spoiler

1) Armada is really good. Probably at the top if you ask me or most people.
2) Leffen is a lot better than many people think. This might not definitively prove him to be the most skilled player at the moment, but they present a very strong case for top two. He has significantly more wins than everyone except for Armada who he is tied with, he has outplaced Mango at more tournaments and is only one behind Armada and Hbox, he goes to the most tournaments with other top 6 players and still has one of the highest average placings, he has good set records against all of the top six this year (only behind by one out of one set to PP), and he doesn't actually drop tons of sets like everyone thinks he does. Your placing of Leffen also has to do with whether you value current placings or legacy, and I value current placings much more.
3) Your placing of PP very much depends on how skeptical you are / how much faith you have in him. It's hard to undoubtedly put him in a spot, but it's hard to argue him out of a spot too (except I think it's pretty easy to argue him out of best in the world as I did earlier with Spak). Being a skeptic, I wouldn't put him in top two.
4) Mango is kind of falling off (only two tournament victories this year, one was in Australia) but still does better than everyone else. However his ego is still top two.
5) Hbox actually had a good year, but with lower average placings and only one tournament win I wouldn't place him any higher. Mango PP and Hbox are all pretty close to me though.
6) That's really all I want to do because it's all I have made up my mind on. The other spaces are more questionable in my mind but I'd say 6-7 is M2K and Plup in some order, 8 is probably Axe, 9-10 could be PPU and Westballz but I'm really not sure.

 

[Dafrancoman]

Plup would be high up on my list that guy is one to watch

 

[PTFool]

1. Armada
2. Leffen
3. Hungrybox
4. PPMD
5. Plup
6. Mango
7. Mew2King
8. Axe
9. PewPewU
10. Westballz

I know I have a lot of unpopular opinions here, but they are well justified:
Armada is Armada. Only player who seems able to beat him is Leffen.
Leffen is winning all the majors, super dominant, but can still be beaten by non-god players more than the other top players (Plup at Evo/Axe at Press Start).
Hungrybox has consistently been right behind the Swedes and got 2nd at Evo, 1st at Paragon earlier this year, and has been consistent against lower level players.
PP won Apex convincingly if not easily, handily beat Plup, who was slaying gods and titans that tournament, for 3rd, and doesn't have any worse performances bringing him down.
This may be sacrilege but I think Plup is above Mango. Plup is my favorite player and has been for a while, so my view is biased, but he was convincing against Mango and Leffen at Evo, he SHOULD have won against them at CEO as well were it not for horrible timings of PS transformations, and he has a strong record against Hungrybox. I don't think many would argue that his Sheik is better than any other, including M2Ks. He's been incredible as of late and could possibly make it a top 7 within a year.
Mango has, by all accounts and to the dismay of many, had a miserable 2015. 4th at Apex, 5th at Evo, and only winning Press Start (though in amazing fashion). Placing him as low as I did is debatable, but after Plup beat him solidly and should have one other time (which would have placed him 7th), I can't imagine Plup not being ranked above Mango. The Kid can definitely bounce back, but he's gonna need to step it up from where he is. Hoping for a better 2016.
Mew2King sorta owns this spot. He's still better than any of the good players, but has dropped below the other top players.
Axe always makes top 8, so not putting him in the top 8 makes no sense. He's amazing, he's exciting, but his choice of character means he has a lot of bad matchups that force him to use secondaries that, while impressive, are not at the needed caliber to break into the top players. The first player on this list I can't or haven't seen beating Armada.
PewPewU. King of 9th place. Apex, CEO, and Evo. Beat Hbox this year, and has performed admirably against the top players. Still needs to step up to break the 9th place curse, but he's better and more consistent than anyone below him.
Better than PewPewU on a good day, but no where near him on a bad day, Westballz is only ranked lower here because of his consistency and performances at big tournaments. Destroyed Mango at Mayhem, and was amazing at Sandstorm, but was got 33rd at Apex and surprisingly lost to Ken and Chu at Evo for 13th. 4th at CEO, but 17th at Press Start. You never know what to expect and that narrowly costs him again PPU.

Hope some people read this all. Let me know what you think.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Leffen is winning all the majors, super dominant, but can still be beaten by non-god players more than the other top players (Plup at Evo/Axe at Press Start).

Armada and PP are the only "gods" who have dropped less sets to "non-gods" than Leffen this year. You can check my post two posts up to see.

 

[-ACE-]

There simply isn't enough data on PP right now. There's always going to be lists based off tourney placings (which is all many people see), and some that are just lists of "Who do you think is the best", similarly to how tier lists often have Fox as #1 even when Falco was winning all the majors. Sometimes you just know Fox is better but there's no "proof". I have more faith in armada, PP, and Plup than I do leffen, but he has proven himself multiple times lately and is undisputed #1 currently.

 

[Ladder]

1. Armada
2. Dr peepee
3. Leffen
4. Mango
5. Mew2king
6. Axe
7. Hungrybox
8. Plup
9. Westballz
10. The moon

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

1. Dead Shroomed (RIP Shroomed Doc)
2. Mang0 (SCORP MASTER)
3. Scar
4. Leffen (He's funny)
5. Nintendude (Shares my 64 main :^))))))))
6. HBox (Why HBox... why your EVO shennanigans)
7. Dr. P00p00
8. Axe (The Shroomed of Pikachu)
9. Armayo
10. M2K (4 his smarts and stuff)
10.5. ZeRo (Broke his tier whoring and won EVO with Diddy! Who is like #5)

 

[Spak]

I feel like Wetballz is underestimated by most people based on their lists. Based on his signifigant placings this year, he got Second at Smash the Targets, 4th at Paragon Orlando, 5th at I'm Not Yelling, 2nd at MVG Sandstorm (and almost took a game off Armada, was ahead at the power outage if memory serves), got 17th at Press Start, got 2nd then 1st at two Mayhem events, got 4th at CEO, then 5th at WTFox, and 13th in EVO (the biggest Smash tournament of all time).

 

[PTFool]

Armada and PP are the only "gods" who have dropped less sets to "non-gods" than Leffen this year. You can check my post two posts up to see.

That's true, but you have to consider how often these players play top level opposition. PPMD has been to 2 tourneys. He doesn't count. Mango plays Westballz all the time and there's no shame in any player losing to West, especially at a local. Hbox plays Plup and Wizzy similarly often. Leffen only plays against players that can threaten him against Armada or when he comes to the US. And the losses to SFAT and HugS were pretty devestating. So was the fashion of his loss to Axe. All that said, I still ranked him #2. He''s the only top 6 player I feel is more likely to a player in the top 15 than the top 6.

 

[Dolla Pills]

That's true, but you have to consider how often these players play top level opposition. PPMD has been to 2 tourneys. He doesn't count. Mango plays Westballz all the time and there's no shame in any player losing to West, especially at a local. Hbox plays Plup and Wizzy similarly often. Leffen only plays against players that can threaten him against Armada or when he comes to the US. And the losses to SFAT and HugS were pretty devestating. So was the fashion of his loss to Axe. All that said, I still ranked him #2. He''s the only top 6 player I feel is more likely to a player in the top 15 than the top 6.

Yeah PP not dropping anything is not saying too much, I'd certainly agree with that. I'll say though, Leffen may not have a challenging scene where he lives, but when he comes to America he is always competing. This year he's been to the most tournaments with other top six players there, and I feel like he's gone to a couple like Super Nebulous where the level of play is still pretty high.

Leffen did have time earlier this year (Press Start) where he was tilting, but that seems to be over. He tends to have fairly close games with other top 15, but you don't really see him lose that often. He's 3-0 against Westballz this year, and he still has beaten Axe every time other than Sandstorm to my knowledge (certainly not this year), and although the Sandstorm set wasn't super close it wasn't super devastating either. He seems to have a weakness against Samus, and although he did quite poorly at INY and lost to Hugo there's not much shame in losing to Plup.

I'm not saying I disagree with your placement of Leffen, I just think there is a popular misconception that Leffen drops and is the most likely to drop sets against non top six players, and I just want to show people that in reality that is not the case.

 

[PTFool]

Leffen did have time earlier this year (Press Start) where he was tilting, but that seems to be over. He tends to have fairly close games with other top 15, but you don't really see him lose that often. He's 3-0 against Westballz this year, and he still has beaten Axe every time other than Sandstorm to my knowledge (certainly not this year), and although the Sandstorm set wasn't super close it wasn't super devastating either. He seems to have a weakness against Samus, and although he did quite poorly at INY and lost to Hugo there's not much shame in losing to Plup.

He's clearly recovered now, but that time when he was playing on tilt was very recent. It still needs to be taken into account. And if his ability to play well can shift on a dime, that's not good consistency. He seems a lot less consistent than Armada and Hbox at least. And no one matches the consistency of PewPewU. 9th at all the tournaments!

 

[B-Will]

I think Lucky and PewPewU are pretty comparable, but with Lucky getting 5th at TBH4 giving him an edge.

Just before EVO 2015, I would have said Shroomed > Lucky/PewPewU definitively, but now I'm questioning whether his style of Sheik is viable at top level.

Really, I have a hard time seeing why PewPewU would be #10 as opposed to Shroomed, Lucky, Fly, or etc (players who've topped 8 a major while having similar resumes).

Yeah, I can see the argument for any of the others as well. It really is a toss-up between a bunch of players at 10!

I feel like people have slept on plup as of recent; he's taken Mango (almost twice), Hbox, and Leffen but fallen to what we've seen of PPMD (Bo3 and controller problems suck) and m2k (SnS was 3-0 in both winner's finals and grands) and I don't think he's played Armada since switching to Sheik (correct me if I'm wrong). If he can be consistent with a placing like his EVO run for the rest of this year, I definitely think he's worthy of the number 7 spot.

Plup is awesome definitely. One of my favorite players at the moment. Number 7-8 belong to plup or axe for sure...axe has been more consistent for longer but plup is definitely rising fast. I am interested in seeing what pans out!

 

[B-Will]

Double post...

 

[EddyBearr]

Yeah, I can see the argument for any of the others as well. It really is a toss-up between a bunch of players at 10!

I've recently become even more convinced in Lucky and Shroomed being above PPU.

With post-EVO reaction winding down, I think of Shroomed as #10 again. After that, I will definitively put Lucky next.

Lucky:
5th at TBH4
Beaten 4/5 gods, many god wins
Top in SoCal besides Mango
Pretty consistent otherwise, getting 9th-17th range if not having a stellar performance.

PewPewU is good, but he has not exhibited the ability to reach a ceiling as much as Lucky has. He's greatly consistent and can beat top players, and I think his position is very established as "10-15 range," but he's consistently not reaching the same levels as someone like Axe, Westballz, or even Lucky.

 

[Modesty]

1. Armada
2. Leffen
3. PPMD
4. Mango
5. Hungrybox
6. Plup
7. M2K
8. Axe
9. Westballz
10. Pew Pew U

 

[Yokubou]

My top 10 and prediction for MIOM's rankings:

1. Leffen
2. Armada
3. Mango
4. Hungrybox
5. PPMD
6. Mew2King
7. Axe
8. Westballz
9. Plup
   
10. PewPewU

Reasoning:
Leffen went 3-0 and 3-1 vs Armada at CEO, 3-1 at FC: Return, and 3-2 at WTFox. Apex/CEO/EVO: 3rd/1st/5th. He also won FC: Return, WTFox, and SSC.

Armada went 3-1 vs Mango at CEO, never dropped a set to any non-god. His lowest placing this year was 5th at Paragon, with no 4th place finishes. Apex/CEO/EVO: 2nd/2nd/1st.

Mango had a number of rough losses to Leffen and Armada throughout the year, with his bizarre SDs vs Hbox at EVO sealing his fate to fall below the Swedes. Apex/CEO/EVO: 4th/3rd/5th.

Hbox got 2nd at EVO, sure, but the 3 Foxes in the top 6 usually have his number. Apex/CEO/EVO: 5th/5th/2nd.

PPMD descended from his mountain to win Apex, then nearly 6 months later suffers a 0-3 to Armada and an embarrassing 0-3 including a 3-stock to Hbox at EVO. Apex/CEO/EVO: 1st/X/3rd.

Mew2MyHandsHurt has still not seen a doctor, and he obviously can't keep up with the other gods while suffering from issues with his hands. But he still beats anyone below him, retaining his status as a god of Melee. Apex/CEO/EVO: 9th/X/X. 2nd at Paragon (Hbox) and SSC (Leffen).

Axe had a strong showing as always, but not quite strong enough to break into the top 6. Apex/CEO/EVO: 13th/X/7th. 3rd at Sandstorm, Press Start, and SSC.

Westballz on a good day is truly a monster, but he still suffers from being incredibly inconsistent. Apex/CEO/EVO: 33rd/4th/13th. 4th at Paragon and SSC as well; 5th at INY, FC, and WTFox; 17th at Press Start.

Plup's rise can only be called meteoric - from 16th to 9th in just 1 year. A Sheik to rival M2K, with wins over Leffen and Mango at EVO (0-2 to PPMD though) and wins over Hbox back in Florida, as well as a last game last stock match vs Mango at CEO. Apex/CEO/EVO: 49th/7th/4th.

PPU, the perpetual 9th placer, usually loses to those above him and gets bopped by the gods save for his 2-1 over Hbox at Apex. Does he have more potential (sorry), or is this as far as our Marth hero goes? Apex/CEO/EVO: 9th/9th/9th.

Bonus:
The only tournaments with at least 4 of the top 10 present where they failed to secure 1st-4th were Press Start where Fly Amanita took 2nd, and FC: Return where MacD took 4th.
Armada's average placing was 2.25; 1.86 without Paragon (5th). Never failed to place top 5.
Leffen's average placing was 3.2; 2.56 without Press Start (5th).
Mango's average placing was 3.14. Never failed to place top 5.
Hbox also never failed to place in the top 5, with an average placing of 3.29.
PPMD's average placing was 2.0, but he only went to Apex and EVO...
M2K's average placing was 4.8 (not counting the forfeit at Sandstorm); 3.75 without Apex (9th).
Axe's average placing was 6.0; 4.6 without Apex (13th).
Westballz's average placing was 9.2; 6.56 without Apex (33rd), 5.25 without Apex and Press Start (17th). Median: 5.
Plup's average placing was 5.33 without Apex (49th).
PPU's average placing was 7.75 - 4th at INY.

 

[Spak]

Just pointing out that Leffen just lost in Heir II v. Android. Leffen played Marth, true, but his cockiness caused him to lose a tournament set.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Just pointing out that Leffen just lost in Heir II v. Android. Leffen played Marth, true, but his cockiness caused him to lose a tournament set.

Leffen was going mostly Yoshi/ some secondaries for a sub goal I believe. He wasn't being "cocky"

 

[CptJPuff]

1. Hungrybox
2. Leffen
3. Mango
4. M2K
I don't really know about the rest.

 

[Spak]

1. Hungrybox
2. Leffen
3. Mango
4. M2K
I don't really know about the rest.

Where's Armada and PP? I'd expect the 5 gods in the top 6 (Maybe bar M2K, but that's debatable since his absence).

 

[CptJPuff]

Where's Armada and PP? I'd expect the 5 gods in the top 6 (Maybe bar M2K, but that's debatable since his absence).

I guess I should rephrase that last sentence. I don't know how to go about placing the rest (Armada, PPMD, Hugs, Axe, etc.) because they're so close to one another in terms of skill.

Off the top of my head though, I would put PP at 5 and Armada at 6.

Going to edit that list and think about it more later.

 

[Yokubou]

I don't know how to go about placing the rest (Armada, PPMD, Hugs, Axe, etc.) because they're so close to one another in terms of skill.

Off the top of my head though, I would put PP at 5 and Armada at 6.

I don't think anyone would argue that Mango, Leffen, and Armada aren't the top 3 right now.
Armada and HugS are not on the same level at all. HugS earned a MIOM rank of 19 this year.
Armada hasn't dropped a set to a non-god/top 6 player since Pound 4 (Jan. 2010). He also just won EVO, and I'm pretty sure he has a positive record vs every single player except Leffen this year.

...

 

[Spak]

I don't think anyone would argue that Mango, Leffen, and Armada aren't the top 3 right now.
Armada and HugS are not on the same level at all. HugS earned a MIOM rank of 19 this year.
Armada hasn't dropped a set to a non-god/top 6 player since Pound 4 (Jan. 2010). He also just won EVO, and I'm pretty sure he has a positive record vs every single player except Leffen this year.

...

I would argue PP is 2nd or 3rd. As already stated in this thread, a majority of the PP games vs HBox and Armada at EVO were last hit last stock, he didn't go to CEO because it didn't fit his schedule and he has his priorities straight, and he won APEX, the biggest Smash tournament (until EVO). He placed better than Mang0 at both of the recent nationals they were both at; I can't see how you can say Mang0 is better.

 

[Yokubou]

I would argue PP is 2nd or 3rd. As already stated in this thread, a majority of the PP games vs HBox and Armada at EVO were last hit last stock, he didn't go to CEO because it didn't fit his schedule and he has his priorities straight, and he won APEX, the biggest Smash tournament (until EVO). He placed better than Mang0 at both of the recent nationals they were both at; I can't see how you can say Mang0 is better.

The issue with putting PP too high is that there's just not enough data to justify it. I'm basing my rankings heavily off of the more recent tournaments, and Apex was back in Jan/Feb. Since EVO was the only other tournament PP went to, his performance there is the primary determining factor. 3x 1-stock vs Armada, 2x 1-stock and a 3-stock vs Hbox; 2-stocked Plup twice. He also dropped a game to both SFAT and HugS.
PP never had to play Leffen or Mango, who both fare much better against Hbox. (Mango SD'd how many times at EVO vs Hbox? Don't count that set; lifetime and recent record are still very lopsided.)
I think putting PP 3rd over Mango is fair enough, but I wouldn't put him over Leffen or Armada. Not that he's not good enough or that I don't want to, but because he doesn't attend anything so it's not fair to put him over the others who consistently show up and perform.

Out of 25 entries to majors (at least 4 of the top 10 players in attendance) (from Paragon to SSC) between Mango (7), Armada (8), and Leffen (10), only once did one of them (Leffen) finish outside of top 5 (9th at Press Start). Armada placed top 3 except for 5th at Paragon; Leffen placed 1st or 3rd except for 5th at Sandstorm and EVO (and PS); Mango finished top 3 except for 4th at Apex and 5th at Sandstorm and EVO. Side note: Mango/Leffen/Armada didn't place below any non-gods at BAM 7 or BEAST 5 either.
Sure, PP entered and did well at the two largest tournaments, but that's still only two, and he didn't play Leffen at EVO or Mango at either tournament.

TL;DR: PP only entered 2 tournaments so it's hard to place him.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Plus a lot of people, especially Leffen, have gotten a lot better in between Apex and Evo, so he could've had a much harder bracket before top 3. I mean I don't think Sfat would be too much of a challenge for PP, the set versus Hugs was a huge nail biter and Hugs would've won if in the last moment he moved his c stick ninety degrees in the counterclockwise direction, and Plup had a somewhat broken controller. The thing about PP is he's a total mystery and how you place him depends entirely on your skepticism. The only things clear are that he's a top player and he's probably not number one at least.

Personally, I'm very confused at how to place PP, Mango, and Hbox. I think Hbox has had some good recent performances but overall his year has been worse than Mango's. PP I don't like to place that high in terms of the top five because I think if he played sets with them right now he would probably lose to all of them (he certainly did lose to Hbox and Armada). Mango I don't like to place that high either because this year he hasn't lived up to his name at all. So I don't really know what to do and I would probably place Hbox below the other two but I don't like to.

And here's another way to look at it. Since 2013 PP has won 4 big/somewhat big tournaments: Tipped off 9, Apex 2014, Sktar 3, and Apex 2015. He also used to go to a lot more tournaments. Everyone else except for maybe Hbox and M2K (didn't look them up so I actually don't know) has won more or significantly more than PP. Even Leffen who has only come to be considered at the top level maybe at the beginning of 2015 has won five big tournaments since then.

 

[FEOwain]

1. Armada
2. Hungrybox
3. Leffen
4. Mang0
5. Mew2King
6. PPMD (All he did was win Apex. He did 1 thing all year.)
7. Westballz
8. Shroomed (SOOOO UNDERRATED)
9. Plup (Way too inconsistent)
10. Axe (Shouldn't be higher than anyone else)