• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

What are the major advantages over Link as of 2.6?

SmashAmass

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
212
Location
California
3DS FC
2191-7637-6640
Since Link has been polished rather nicely, with some new hitboxes and other adjustments, it makes me wonder what the benefits are of Toon Link as of 2.6. I could be wrong about this, since I don't main as him, but this is what I've noticed so far:
*His vertical recovery is worse than Links, this was an acceptable trade-off before Link's new hitboxes helped with edge guarding and extended further horizontally.
*He has an overall shorter range and less killing power, which may not be the case for his Ariel attacks, but his grounded tilts and smashes all have this problem (besides his USmash).
*His bomb deals less damage and knockback
*His grounded UpB isn't the most reliable killing move, which was fixed for link as a horizontal gimp at 100+%
*He has poor recovery, and is easily edge guarded by his lack of a vertical spike, since his whole animation resembles that of the N64 era link.

Again, I could be wrong or missing a few details, but this is what I've found through my playthrough of the character. So is Toon Link an inferior character, or is it too soon to know tier and meta-game wise?
 

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
2,740
Location
Illinois
Toon Link has really really good recovery.

Down-throw to aerial up-b is a great kill move.

He is the TOON version of Link, which is awesome.
 

BRLNK88

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
955
Location
Austin, Texas
Bomb jumps are MUCH harder in 2.6.
I could do them endlessly in 2.5, now the bomb hits the sword and goes flying away, same with Link.
Idk what the hell they did....
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
Since Link has been polished rather nicely, with some new hitboxes and other adjustments, it makes me wonder what the benefits are of Toon Link as of 2.6. I could be wrong about this, since I don't main as him, but this is what I've noticed so far:
*His vertical recovery is worse than Links, this was an acceptable trade-off before Link's new hitboxes helped with edge guarding and extended further horizontally.
*He has an overall shorter range and less killing power, which may not be the case for his Ariel attacks, but his grounded tilts and smashes all have this problem (besides his USmash).
*His bomb deals less damage and knockback
*His grounded UpB isn't the most reliable killing move, which was fixed for link as a horizontal gimp at 100+%
*He has poor recovery, and is easily edge guarded by his lack of a vertical spike, since his whole animation resembles that of the N64 era link.

Again, I could be wrong or missing a few details, but this is what I've found through my playthrough of the character. So is Toon Link an inferior character, or is it too soon to know tier and meta-game wise?
Link has received more changes than TL has in 2.6, but that doesn't make him a strictly worse character. There are many benefits to choosing TL over Link (as well as vice versa, obviously).

Toon Link's recovery, with some experience, is strong. With good DI, AGT'ing gives you both a considerable amount of distance and many options to vary your recovery with, as well as simultaneously throwing out non-clankable projectiles for your opponent to deal with. You can also mix-up by throwing a rang, grappling the ledge, or by using a sweetspot up+b. Link's recovery does pretty much the same thing, except it's more lenient and up+b travels further. This is all pre-bomb jumping, his recovery is solid with AGT and tether/up+b mixups alone, add that in and it's just icing.

With regards to killing power: Toon Link's fsmash is also a very potent killing move, and while his dsmash does not posses raw power, it sends at a very good angle for killing people early and hence has many uses against opponents who are close to the edge. In many cases it is a better option than a counterpart with more raw power, sheerly because the angle at which they are forced to recover is that much worse. Also, note that TL's aerial up+b gives him an aerial killing option that nothing in Link's arsenal can compare to, allowing him to effectively trap opponents above him and secure a KO with ease. TL's dair is also easier to connect with, as he jumps much quicker than Link does.

TL's bomb is a lot better than Link's (it's better that it has less kb), it guarantees a hit confirm into pretty much any move you want. This even works at killing percents where you can combo bomb into dair or up+b. It also deals 12% damage, which is neat. Comparing their tilts/grounded up+bs by their killing potential alone is not a fair way of doing things, seeing as they were designed for different purposes. TL's grounded up+b is far more utility based, and highly dynamic in nature. With it's mobility, multi-hit nature and charge-up animation it's useful as a mobile edge-hogging tool, and as a tool to tech chase with, both things that you can not achieve with Link's up+b. Having a grounded move that can cover multiple tech options is extremely important for TL, because his grab's start-up is too slow to regrab a tech animation on reaction. Likewise, his tilts are also focused more on utility and not raw power, they are considerably quicker overall and dtilt/utilt can also combo into TL's killing moves. TL's dtilt in particular is fantastic and probably rivals Link's utilt, which is by far his best tilt.

As for 2.6 specific benefits: His fthrow, uthrow and bair have been reworked to improve his combo game. Bair in particular sends at a much better angle now and improves his combo game a lot. The removal of the boomerang catch animation, while universal, really shines for TL as it allows him to use his fast jump animation to combo from his boomerang with a much larger array of moves than he used to be able to.

tl;dr: TL is the faster, more combo/mobility oriented version of Link, traits that are very important in PM. While he lacks in a lot of areas that Link excels at (particularly range), he really shines in others, e.g. his running speed, his jump physics, his superior grab game, his better combo game, his control of people above him. You have to look at both sides of the coin to understand that he isn't necessarily a worse version of Link.

Bomb jumps are MUCH harder in 2.6.
I could do them endlessly in 2.5, now the bomb hits the sword and goes flying away, same with Link.
Idk what the hell they did....
TL's up+b has three parts: A strong, medium and weak hit. In 2.5 the "medium" hit was really weak and the "weak" hit basically may as well have not existed (it came so late in the animation, pretty much as he was already falling). In 2.6 the medium hit was given much more power, making it a respectable killing move, and the weak hit was given more active frames to be made more prevalent. The end result is that up+b will be much more lenient when aiming for a strong combo finisher (the strong+medium hit stay out for roughly 2/3 of the animation, as opposed to the strong hit only being half the animation in 2.5) but there is an actual weak hit now. The weak hit only does 4 damage, and TL's bombs have 6 health, so it does make the timing for bomb jumping a little more strict. That said, testing was done to make sure that the timing for bomb jumping is still possible for a human to perform consistently.

Link's, however, should not be any harder in 2.6. It was always possible for his up+b to hit the bomb away if timed incorrectly.
 

BRLNK88

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
955
Location
Austin, Texas
I feel like they did do something with either the bombs or the up-B with Link.
I never hit the bomb with the sword in 2.5, if I blew the bomb jump, it's because I missed the bomb.
The TL stricter timing sucks, but I guess nothing you can about it cept be more accurate... sort of makes me wanna play Link more, TL is toast w/o his bomb jumps. I have noticed, when I sweetspot the up-B it kills earlier than before, very nice at the end of a combo to the ledge.
 

SmashAmass

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
212
Location
California
3DS FC
2191-7637-6640
Link has received more changes than TL has in 2.6, but that doesn't make him a strictly worse character. There are many benefits to choosing TL over Link (as well as vice versa, obviously).

Toon Link's recovery, with some experience, is strong. With good DI, AGT'ing gives you both a considerable amount of distance and many options to vary your recovery with, as well as simultaneously throwing out non-clankable projectiles for your opponent to deal with. You can also mix-up by throwing a rang, grappling the ledge, or by using a sweetspot up+b. Link's recovery does pretty much the same thing, except it's more lenient and up+b travels further. This is all pre-bomb jumping, his recovery is solid with AGT and tether/up+b mixups alone, add that in and it's just icing.

With regards to killing power: Toon Link's fsmash is also a very potent killing move, and while his dsmash does not posses raw power, it sends at a very good angle for killing people early and hence has many uses against opponents who are close to the edge. In many cases it is a better option than a counterpart with more raw power, sheerly because the angle at which they are forced to recover is that much worse. Also, note that TL's aerial up+b gives him an aerial killing option that nothing in Link's arsenal can compare to, allowing him to effectively trap opponents above him and secure a KO with ease. TL's dair is also easier to connect with, as he jumps much quicker than Link does.

TL's bomb is a lot better than Link's (it's better that it has less kb), it guarantees a hit confirm into pretty much any move you want. This even works at killing percents where you can combo bomb into dair or up+b. It also deals 12% damage, which is neat. Comparing their tilts/grounded up+bs by their killing potential alone is not a fair way of doing things, seeing as they were designed for different purposes. TL's grounded up+b is far more utility based, and highly dynamic in nature. With it's mobility, multi-hit nature and charge-up animation it's useful as a mobile edge-hogging tool, and as a tool to tech chase with, both things that you can not achieve with Link's up+b. Having a grounded move that can cover multiple tech options is extremely important for TL, because his grab's start-up is too slow to regrab a tech animation on reaction. Likewise, his tilts are also focused more on utility and not raw power, they are considerably quicker overall and dtilt/utilt can also combo into TL's killing moves. TL's dtilt in particular is fantastic and probably rivals Link's utilt, which is by far his best tilt.

As for 2.6 specific benefits: His fthrow, uthrow and bair have been reworked to improve his combo game. Bair in particular sends at a much better angle now and improves his combo game a lot. The removal of the boomerang catch animation, while universal, really shines for TL as it allows him to use his fast jump animation to combo from his boomerang with a much larger array of moves than he used to be able to.

tl;dr: TL is the faster, more combo/mobility oriented version of Link, traits that are very important in PM. While he lacks in a lot of areas that Link excels at (particularly range), he really shines in others, e.g. his running speed, his jump physics, his superior grab game, his better combo game, his control of people above him. You have to look at both sides of the coin to understand that he isn't necessarily a worse version of Link.



TL's up+b has three parts: A strong, medium and weak hit. In 2.5 the "medium" hit was really weak and the "weak" hit basically may as well have not existed (it came so late in the animation, pretty much as he was already falling). In 2.6 the medium hit was given much more power, making it a respectable killing move, and the weak hit was given more active frames to be made more prevalent. The end result is that up+b will be much more lenient when aiming for a strong combo finisher (the strong+medium hit stay out for roughly 2/3 of the animation, as opposed to the strong hit only being half the animation in 2.5) but there is an actual weak hit now. The weak hit only does 4 damage, and TL's bombs have 6 health, so it does make the timing for bomb jumping a little more strict. That said, testing was done to make sure that the timing for bomb jumping is still possible for a human to perform consistently.

Link's, however, should not be any harder in 2.6. It was always possible for his up+b to hit the bomb away if timed incorrectly.
*low whistle* I gotta say man, this is one comprehensive look at this character. Thanks for the input man, I really appreciate it! I'll have to do some more testing with the character to gather a stronger opinion on his playstyle and where it works best in comparison to Link. Did you gather this information from various sources, or from personal testing?
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
I feel like they did do something with either the bombs or the up-B with Link.
I never hit the bomb with the sword in 2.5, if I blew the bomb jump, it's because I missed the bomb.
The TL stricter timing sucks, but I guess nothing you can about it cept be more accurate... sort of makes me wanna play Link more, TL is toast w/o his bomb jumps. I have noticed, when I sweetspot the up-B it kills earlier than before, very nice at the end of a combo to the ledge.

You could always hit the bomb away with Link's sword, even in Melee, it's not something that has changed in 2.6. Remember that TL's up+b was reworked to make the hitboxes make more sense, there is no reason to do the same for Link.

But yeah, that's what's up with TL's bomb jump in 2.6. Try playing around with it more and letting me know how you feel about the timing later on down the line. :p It took me a while to get used to it, too.

*low whistle* I gotta say man, this is one comprehensive look at this character. Thanks for the input man, I really appreciate it! I'll have to do some more testing with the character to gather a stronger opinion on his playstyle and where it works best in comparison to Link. Did you gather this information from various sources, or from personal testing?

I decided to main the character last December, so I've spent a lot of time exploring his options since then, and used him almost exclusively in tournament. Let me know what your findings are, if you struggle in any areas of his gameplay, I can try to offer some advice. This character is very fun to explore, IMO.
 

SmashAmass

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
212
Location
California
3DS FC
2191-7637-6640
You could always hit the bomb away with Link's sword, even in Melee, it's not something that has changed in 2.6. Remember that TL's up+b was reworked to make the hitboxes make more sense, there is no reason to do the same for Link.

But yeah, that's what's up with TL's bomb jump in 2.6. Try playing around with it more and letting me know how you feel about the timing later on down the line. :p It took me a while to get used to it, too.




I decided to main the character last December, so I've spent a lot of time exploring his options since then, and used him almost exclusively in tournament. Let me know what your findings are, if you struggle in any areas of his gameplay, I can try to offer some advice. This character is very fun to explore, IMO.
I know this is somewhat off topic, but how in the world do you find tournaments locally?! I've wanted to try my hand at a couple, since I feel I'm not getting enough good practice from lvl9 CPU's (true they are good, but they form allot of bad habits regarding prediction and DI). Is there a list somewhere in the forums strictly for ProjectM? and if so, is it insanely difficult to begin fighting in tournaments?
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
I was pretty fortunate in that regard, the area I live in (London) already had a strong Melee community and many of us picked up PM when 2.0 came out. However, you can find tournaments for your region either by either checking your region-specific tournament section or by checking out a facebook group for your region (http://smashboards.com/threads/facebook-groups-links.325058/). These aren't PM-specific sources, but you will probably find people who play PM.

Depending on the caliber of the players who enter, you will most likely not do particularly well at your first tournament. Fortunately, tournaments provide invaluable experience and really help you to improve, and most people who attend them are willing to give you advice.
 

SmashAmass

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
212
Location
California
3DS FC
2191-7637-6640
I was pretty fortunate in that regard, the area I live in (London) already had a strong Melee community and many of us picked up PM when 2.0 came out. However, you can find tournaments for your region either by either checking your region-specific tournament section or by checking out a facebook group for your region (http://smashboards.com/threads/facebook-groups-links.325058/). These aren't PM-specific sources, but you will probably find people who play PM.

Depending on the caliber of the players who enter, you will most likely not do particularly well at your first tournament. Fortunately, tournaments provide invaluable experience and really help you to improve, and most people who attend them are willing to give you advice.
That's great! Unfortunately I am not a facebook user, so this could be a little cumbersome for me. However, I'm still glad that there are local smash groups close to where I live, hopefully they have a group for orange county.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
You could always make a dummy fb account for those groups, the interaction is very similar to that of a forum. :p Also, if you live in Orange County you live close to Okami and Fly Amanita (I was just there last month so I visited Okami <_<), so you definitely have very good competition there.
 

SmashAmass

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
212
Location
California
3DS FC
2191-7637-6640
You could always make a dummy fb account for those groups, the interaction is very similar to that of a forum. :p Also, if you live in Orange County you live close to Okami and Fly Amanita (I was just there last month so I visited Okami <_<), so you definitely have very good competition there.
I should rename this topic "what do I do to join a tournament" by this point, but one last question: what's with all the codenames for competitive players in SSB? Do you just make up your own and earn tourney records by it? Do you have a nickname? How do you get that nickname registered through the tournament scene? is it better to get a nickname than just using your old boring name for a first tournament?
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
I should rename this topic "what do I do to join a tournament" by this point, but one last question: what's with all the codenames for competitive players in SSB? Do you just make up your own and earn tourney records by it? Do you have a nickname? How do you get that nickname registered through the tournament scene? is it better to get a nickname than just using your old boring name for a first tournament?

The aliases that smashers come up with aren't any different than ones you would make for, say, an MMO. It's just a name that you make it up yourself, it can be whatever you want it to be, and you don't have to register it, you simply tell the guy running the tournament what you want to enter the tournament as.
 

BRLNK88

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
955
Location
Austin, Texas
You could always hit the bomb away with Link's sword, even in Melee, it's not something that has changed in 2.6. Remember that TL's up+b was reworked to make the hitboxes make more sense, there is no reason to do the same for Link.

But yeah, that's what's up with TL's bomb jump in 2.6. Try playing around with it more and letting me know how you feel about the timing later on down the line. :p It took me a while to get used to it, too.
Maybe I just never hit the bomb with Link's sword in 2.5 or 2.1...idk.
What alternate timing would you recommend with TL?
In 2.5, if my glide toss was perfect, I could even delay the up-B by 1/2 a second before hitting the bomb, and even DI the hit towards the stage to gain more horizontal. Do I need to do it slower now that there's a weak hit? Or even faster?
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
Maybe I just never hit the bomb with Link's sword in 2.5 or 2.1...idk.
What alternate timing would you recommend with TL?
In 2.5, if my glide toss was perfect, I could even delay the up-B by 1/2 a second before hitting the bomb, and even DI the hit towards the stage to gain more horizontal. Do I need to do it slower now that there's a weak hit? Or even faster?
The weak hit comes out earlier now, so you want to up+b quicker if you are hitting the bomb away. If you're struggling with it, it's probably better to focus on doing a max distance AGT, that makes the timing much more lenient.

edit: You can still DI the bomb hit toward the stage like before, nothing's changed once the bomb actually blows up.
 

SmashAmass

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
212
Location
California
3DS FC
2191-7637-6640
The aliases that smashers come up with aren't any different than ones you would make for, say, an MMO. It's just a name that you make it up yourself, it can be whatever you want it to be, and you don't have to register it, you simply tell the guy running the tournament what you want to enter the tournament as.
Sorry for the late reply, but thanks allot for the information! I really want to start getting a foothold into the competitive community later on, doesn't seem as atrocious as a TCG tournament at the very least (I have X card, therefore I win).
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
Sorry for the late reply, but thanks allot for the information! I really want to start getting a foothold into the competitive community later on, doesn't seem as atrocious as a TCG tournament at the very least (I have X card, therefore I win).
No problem, I think you'll have a lot of fun in the community.
 

FlamingForce

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Messages
390
The timing on the bomb jump is almost frame ****ing perfect, even in slow-mo 1/4 speed I can't do it consistently anymore, it's really silly imo. :\

Why was there ever a need to even make the timing THIS strict, anyway? The only way I can do it reliably now is by double jumping after the AGT >_________________>
 

foxygrandpa

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
414
Location
Long Island
The timing on the bomb jump is almost frame ****ing perfect, even in slow-mo 1/4 speed I can't do it consistently anymore, it's really silly imo. :\

Why was there ever a need to even make the timing THIS strict, anyway? The only way I can do it reliably now is by double jumping after the AGT >_________________>
Frame perfect? I dont think so. My brother plays link and bomb jumps succesfully about 75 percent of the time. It may be difficult but not as difficult as you're making it out to be. When he does it though, he moves forwards so that he is slightly in front of the bomb and then slightly backwards so that the bomb doesn't get hit away by the sword but instead hits link.
And as an opinion, link is a pretty solid character except for his inability to deal with pressure. Toon Link is way below links level.
 

FlamingForce

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Messages
390
Frame perfect? I dont think so. My brother plays link and bomb jumps succesfully about 75 percent of the time. It may be difficult but not as difficult as you're making it out to be. When he does it though, he moves forwards so that he is slightly in front of the bomb and then slightly backwards so that the bomb doesn't get hit away by the sword but instead hits link.
And as an opinion, link is a pretty solid character except for his inability to deal with pressure. Toon Link is way below links level.

LOL Links Bomb Jump is 500x easier, I can do that one with my eyes closed.
 
Top Bottom