What are the differences in clone characters?

[LividLynx]

So I am new to smash all together, so this is an ignorant question. I don't know too much about the game, except that I love it.

Some characters have very similar move sets. Like Fox vs Flaco, Cpt Falcon vs Gandorff, and Marth vs Roy. The main differences I can see between the characters, besides a few moves, is speed vs power.

I am asking this because I was watching a Project M demo with Roy on a live stream (VGBootCamp), and made the comment "Roy looks like a Marth clone," and then few people in chat went super saiyan mocking me. I'm not butt hurt about it, I just want to know why the characters are so different. I understand that the differences in speed and power can really change a play style of a character. I just don't get why calling a character a clone is so insulting.

So if anyone cares to set me straight by telling me the differences between characters with similar move sets, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Sebovich]

Lot of small differences make the characters vastly different, for example Fox and Falcos shine, both really similair moves esthetically but vastly different in its effect. Falcos shine sends opponents upwards, allowing him to execute sick combos, while Fox´s shine is perfect for edgeguarding and gimping at low percentages.

 

[DrinkingFood]

generally the word clone implies things are so similar that it makes no difference which is which. It's more or less the connotation of the word choice that sets people off.

But beside that, "clones" in smash have a lot more different than speed and power differences. Often times their moves functions completely differently. Fox's down air has many weak hits that lock an opponent in place, or pressure shields, while falco's only hits once, good for launching players or spiking them to their death. Mario's nair sends outwards and slightly up while Luigi's sends almost directly upward; the same applies to their respective up airs and downsmashes to a certain degree. Their physics also make them remarkably different characters, with luigi able to linger in the air and deliver multiple attacks before landing while mario's faster falling speed and better aerial maneuverability allows him to be less dedicated when he goes into the air; Luigi has much less traction and thus an amazing wavedash while mario relies on a faster dash. Marth's and Roy's sweet spots and sour spots for their attacks are at different placings on their swords, meaning their effective range is very different and different points in the game. Their physics are also similar to Mario's/Luigi's, marth being closer to luigi (to a lesser extreme) and and Roy to Mario.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I`m sure when you said that you weren`t trying to bash him for being a clone, but I feel thats how other people saw it. people get REALLY butthurt when someone mocks a character they like, especially for being a clone.

 

[LividLynx]

I`m sure when you said that you weren`t trying to bash him for being a clone, but I feel thats how other people saw it. people get REALLY butthurt when someone mocks a character they like, especially for being a clone.

I didn't mean it as an insult, merely an observation that some characters have similar moves. Oh well just a miscommunication.

 

[LividLynx]

Also. thank you DrinkingFood for the explanation of how a few changes between characters can greatly change a character's game style.

 

[Xinc]

I recommend you play the characters available to see the difference of the clone characters. Their attacks are similar, but work differently. For example, Falco and Fox have a similar moveset, but Falco's lasers deal flinch damage and are slower, Falco having a shorter side-b and Up-b, and Falco's reflector sending an opponent upward rather than downward at an angle.

 

[Chzrm3]

Part of what you saw is a response that's been building up for years. I've had a lot of arguments with people about silly things - the biggest thing that drives me crazy is when someone says "Why is Lucas a clone of Ness?" And then, even though I painstakingly explain that they're not clones at all, the person's response is "but they have the same Up-B and Final Smash, and they both hit with sticks!" FKLDSUIOSEURJS

So when you said "Roy looks like a Marth clone", people probably assumed that you were one of those people who just starts up those arguments.

It seems like you're an unfortunate victim of circumstance in that case, haha. Sorry! But everyone in this thread gave you a pretty solid understanding of why the characters are so different. Even Fox and Falco, who are probably the closest as far as similarities, play so differently once you get into them.

 

[Seraphim.]

As everyone has said already, the people probably just took it the wrong way and for the most part Roy usually gets hated on a lot so they probably just thought you were trying to start something or just hating so you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And clones usually have different playstyles then the character they are cloning.

 

[Phaiyte]

As a general rule of thumb, you can honestly believe that "clones" don't actually exist. While some things between characters may look similar, everything about the characters are completely different in every way.

 

[LividLynx]

Ok, thank you for the responses. Any suggestions of more acceptable ways of grouping similar characters? What word(s) should I use instead of clone? Like space animal, swordsmen? Is that a better idea?

Or should I just take every character as their own, ignore similarities in appearance, and solely pay attention to the characters moveset/playstyle?

 

[Chzrm3]

Yeah, calling them spacies / space animals is totally cool. Nobody would be mad at you for that, haha.

For the others, I don't really know of any terms people use to refer to Marth/Roy, Falcon/Gdorf (maybe "manly ass men?" lolol), etc. They usually just call them by their own names.

I feel like such a nerd for giving you defined terms to use, haha. But I still feel bad that you got yelled at by the kids in the stream. XD Hopefully this helps you!

 

[Phaiyte]

Just call them what they are lol.

 

[MLGF]

They're called swordies and punchies respectively.
We also got plumbies, groundbounds, and linkies.

Spread the woooooooord

 

[Xinc]

Ok, thank you for the responses. Any suggestions of more acceptable ways of grouping similar characters? What word(s) should I use instead of clone? Like space animal, swordsmen? Is that a better idea?

Or should I just take every character as their own, ignore similarities in appearance, and solely pay attention to the characters moveset/playstyle?

Spacies for Wolf/Fox/Falco/ Falcon. You could consider Wolf/Fox/Falco semi-clones, seeing they have some difference.
Swordmen for Link/TL/ Marth/ Roy/ Ike. Marth and Roy act more like semi-clones, but you can still call them clones, since their movesets are similar.

I guess you could say clones that are from most similar to least similar are: Fox/Falco, Marth/Roy, Link/TL, Ganondorf/Falcon (though they could be considered semiclones, since their movesets are somewhat different, with the Choke and Fairs being different),
Other semi-clones would be Mario and Luigi, and Fox or Falco and Wolf,

 

[Rikana]

If you play street fighter, just think of it in terms of ryu and ken. They have similar movesets but its how you use them which is different.

 

[LividLynx]

I don't play street fighter, but I love watching it. So that makes a lot of sense. Ryu vs Ken. Similar moves, different gameplay.

 

[Vigilante]

I main Roy and sometimes use Falco as a secondary.

Takes Roy for example:

In Melee, his animations looked like Marth's with a fire effect, but we changed a few of those in Project M. However, Roy has fast-faller physics, while Marth is more floaty. Roy has better hitboxes at the edge of his blade rather than at the tip, while Marth has better hitboxes at the tip rather than the edge. In a sense, In Project M, Roy's built better around short-hop-fast-fall-L-Cancelling because he can do it faster than Marth and he shines best when very close to the opponents. On the other hand, Marth shines best at controlling the distance between himself and his foe. Roy has better launchers to jumps into into juggling comboes, while Marth as say... more reliable gimps.

Marth is faster than Roy at a basic level, but Roy derives his speed from his fast-faller physics, which makes his deceivingly faster than Marth in some instances, which means that his method of exerting pressure requires a different approach. In other words, if you play Roy like Marth, or play Marth like Roy, you will have less than stellar results because the different angles, startup lag, endlag, knockback, damage, etc... make each move serve different purposes.

The same rule applies to other "clones". They play so differently, that it does sadden me that many don,t want to see the likes of Roy back on the pretense that he's a clone. On our end, we have decided to "declone" moves, but giving them different animations when balancing some of them, so Ganondorf's up-tilt and the decision to keep Brawl's side B, Falco's jab and the different up air, as well as Roy's many new animations are a part of that effort. Nevertheless, we also sought to respect the general gameplay direction of these character, and what made them so special.

 

[hotdogturtle]

In Melee:

http://www.twitch.tv/cosmowright/b/427826603?t=4h55m55s
http://www.twitch.tv/cosmowright/b/427826603?t=4h58m24s

Hopefully P:M will fix these differences more

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Yeah, calling them spacies / space animals is totally cool. Nobody would be mad at you for that, haha.

For the others, I don't really know of any terms people use to refer to Marth/Roy, Falcon/Gdorf (maybe "manly *** men?" lolol), etc. They usually just call them by their own names.

I feel like such a nerd for giving you defined terms to use, haha. But I still feel bad that you got yelled at by the kids in the stream. XD Hopefully this helps you!

Ness/Lucas we call Stephen Georg.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Part of what you saw is a response that's been building up for years. I've had a lot of arguments with people about silly things - the biggest thing that drives me crazy is when someone says "Why is Lucas a clone of Ness?" And then, even though I painstakingly explain that they're not clones at all, the person's response is "but they have the same Up-B and Final Smash, and they both hit with sticks!" FKLDSUIOSEURJS

So when you said "Roy looks like a Marth clone", people probably assumed that you were one of those people who just starts up those arguments.

It seems like you're an unfortunate victim of circumstance in that case, haha. Sorry! But everyone in this thread gave you a pretty solid understanding of why the characters are so different. Even Fox and Falco, who are probably the closest as far as similarities, play so differently once you get into them.

No character is a clone, what they are are relatives. They look similar to bystander. But if you play them they're as different as pie is the Captain Falcon.

Btw: Captain Falcon loves vodka.

 

[Burnsy]

They're called swordies and punchies respectively.
We also got plumbies, groundbounds, and linkies.

Spread the woooooooord

+1 for swordies and punchies

 

[Toxicroaker]

One of my friends called Mewtwo a clone of Lucas because "They both use lots of magic" LOL (I didn't pick on her I swear)

 

[Burnsy]

Lucas and Mewtwo actually have quite a few similarities with their movesets, but they have completely different movement, weight, and physics.

 

[MLGF]

The same could be said of a lot of characters?
Was everyone, outside of DK, a clone in Smash 64 because all of their NAir's were sex kicks?


Yes, yes they were