What are Sonic's weaknesses?

Kirby Phelps (PK)

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#1
I know Sonic is high tier for a reason, but he's gotta have SOME weaknesses. So I wanted to know what you guys think his weaknesses are and also the best way to get around them. Personally, I feel like playing a defensive Sonic isn't great. He relies on his Spin Dash/Charge, and if that's not working, then he doesn't have much else in the form of heavy offense.
 

•Saıls•

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#2
Might just be me, but I find Sonic's lack of projectiles (or just long ranged attacks) a big weakness.
 
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Camalange

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#4
I'd have preferred if this was taken to the FAQ thread, but...

Sonic is actually more commonly played defensively, which I'll touch on later. He's not a true rushdown character at all, and only appears that way if the Sonic is of a very high caliber or higher caliber of their opponent. Also, of course Sonic has weaknesses... Most people don't take the time to recognize them though. More people complain about a character that isn't even top 5 yet they just are okay with half the cast having Hoo-Hahs and the like. This isn't to say Sonic still isn't a top character, but some aspects of his character are severely overhyped.

Sonic himself not having a projectile isn't necessarily inherently bad. It doesn't help though, as a lot of top tiers have them like Diddy's bananas, Sheik's needles, Rosalina & Luma, Luigi's fireballs, ZSS stungun, Pikachu's thunderbolts, etc…

Spring is great but is a completely different projectile fundamentally so we can't really count that as a projectile (it's not used for zoning, spacing, etc.) We actually forfeit stage control by using it since it puts us high above in the air, which is somewhere you never want to be in Smash 4, especially when your landing options aren't great, which is a weakness I will also get to. Spring is only great for edgeguarding or temporarily getting out of a situation, but can sometimes lead to a harder punish based off the reasons I just mentioned.

KO power isn't so much a problem (besides the Bthrow nerf RIP) but his set-ups still are lacking. Better than Brawl, but aren't as free or safe as others (Hoo-hah, bouncing fish, Luma, Luigi Dthrow, etc.)

Ultimately, Sonic's problems lie in his approaches and landing. With the spring autocancel distance heightened, it's hard to safely spring and dair to the ground without it being easily baited and punished. We lack moves that put a hitbox below us that autocancel, so falling nairs are okay but we have to basically fall into you which leads to us getting shieldgrabbed.

Approaching is difficult against zoner heavy characters. Getting walled out is brutal, despite popular belief. For bad projectiles (Samus) then yes, Sonic is "2 fast" and can get through walls easily. But GOOD PLAYERS with GOOD CHARACTERS (like Rosalina and Luma or Olimar and Pikmin) can make approaching hell. We have to approach, or just hope you mess up and we can run and punish. Sonic's game is primarily punish based, so if you're just creating SAFE walls, then Sonic is in such an awful situation. Sonic's approaches only seem great if you're pressing buttons from across the screen for no rhyme or reason, as Sonic has easy, let's say, auto-punishes, because we can get there in a second whereas most characters don't have a response to people pressing buttons from the opposite side of the map.

It takes a huge understanding of yourself, the player, and the match-up to actually be aggressive and break down good walls. Sonic requires reads so heavily that a scrubby Sonic can get shut down easy.

Scrubby players will lose to mediocre Sonics because they can't handle spins, but spins themselves aren't that strong. It's the mix-ups and options that come with them that make him good, when utilized by a smart player who avoids patterns but finds yours.

At the end of the day, Sonic has to be in your face to do anything. His speed and lack of commitment to approaches leads to a heavy bait-and-punish playstyle. It's not true rushdown like Diddy or Sheik who can safely poke just out of range while also pushing you out.

There are benefits to spins as their shield pressure and mix-ups on shield are safer from Brawl, but with the damage nerf, more things clank with spins and they do less damage so it's even more work than before. The only true buff that spins got at all from Brawl to Smash 4 is that due to the change in engine itself, Sonic's spins have more shield stun making them harder to respond to. The only additional mix-up on shield we gained is the slow, multi-hit spin roll. This is the sole reason for spins being better. Other than that, they've literally been nerfed in every other way or remained exactly the same. Sonic being remotely good was completely unintentional from a programming perspective.

Sonic really just resets neutral a lot, and while this is annoying, it's not particularly amazing either. It doesn't inherently put us in an advantage if we're not gaining ground either… At that point, it becomes more of a battle of frames and reactions.

This is also why characters like Fox are very good against Sonic, as Fox totally wins the neutral game, so if all we're doing is resetting neutral, we're putting ourselves in a bad position.

:093:
 

cerealkiller

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#5
As always very well detailed and I agree with everything. I just think you're a bit in denial regarding his KO power. Of the characters I play regularly Sonic is the only one I have to put in so much effort to finish the opponent. I feel like the only moves I can rely on are a well landed F-smash (charged) or Up-Smash.
 

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#6
As always very well detailed and I agree with everything. I just think you're a bit in denial regarding his KO power. Of the characters I play regularly Sonic is the only one I have to put in so much effort to finish the opponent. I feel like the only moves I can rely on are a well landed F-smash (charged) or Up-Smash.
Well, we're no Fox, but Usmash, while being a little difficult to safely land, has pretty insane knockback.
Fsmash and Bair are both very good, and even Uair honestly. I've also killed with Nair and Ftilt before with proper circumstances.

Maybe it all seems great to me since Sonic Brawl was such suffering for trying to get kills.

Again, I don't think it's so much a fault in KO power as much as it is set-ups.

Fox's Usmash is very fast and safe, and he can jab>jab>Usmash, so the low risk of executing and the ease of landing the set-ups make him a KO threat. Sonic doesn't really have this sort of thing going for him, especially in neutral. Most kills are some sort of edgeguard, read, etc.

:093:
 

Kirby Phelps (PK)

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#7
Approaching is difficult against zoner heavy characters. Getting walled out is brutal, despite popular belief. For bad projectiles (Samus) then yes, Sonic is "2 fast" and can get through walls easily. But GOOD PLAYERS with GOOD CHARACTERS (like Rosalina and Luma or Olimar and Pikmin) can make approaching hell. We have to approach, or just hope you mess up and we can run and punish. Sonic's game is primarily punish based, so if you're just creating SAFE walls, then Sonic is in such an awful situation.
Really? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong, but there've been so many times when it felt like my Pikmin were very unreliable and I assumed Olimar was bottom tier. There'd be times when my Pikmin were right next to me, but when I do an f-smash, they don't respond and I get punished. Or if I do a grab and I'm right in front of someone, but the Pikmin just goes right through my opponent instead of grabbing them. With only three Pikmin that love to scatter and derp about, sometimes without even doing an attack, it really feels like Olimar's zoning abilities are weak. His Pikmin are far less dependable as they were in Brawl.
 

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#8
Really? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong, but there've been so many times when it felt like my Pikmin were very unreliable and I assumed Olimar was bottom tier. There'd be times when my Pikmin were right next to me, but when I do an f-smash, they don't respond and I get punished. Or if I do a grab and I'm right in front of someone, but the Pikmin just goes right through my opponent instead of grabbing them. With only three Pikmin that love to scatter and derp about, sometimes without even doing an attack, it really feels like Olimar's zoning abilities are weak. His Pikmin are far less dependable as they were in Brawl.
Well, maybe not as much Olimar, but he's definitely not bottom tier. Look at players like Dabuz.

I just don't think people give Olimar nearly enough credit. I will say he's not quite the same stature as he was in Brawl, and with the HA fix, Sonic doesn't lock on to Pikmin anymore, it's definitely an improvement.

But, if you're properly spacing, Olimar's grab is ridiculous against Sonic. He can so easily grab Sonic out of his approach because Olimar's grab has range and is disjointed... It's stupid.

Plus, just the amount of disjoints and camping that revolve around Olimar make him annoying for Sonic regardless.

It's not as bad, as say, Lucario, who was an awful match-up in Brawl and continues to be a stupid match-up now.

:093:
 

ToonKake

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#9
I'd have preferred if this was taken to the FAQ thread, but...

Sonic is actually more commonly played defensively, which I'll touch on later. He's not a true rushdown character at all, and only appears that way if the Sonic is of a very high caliber or higher caliber of their opponent. Also, of course Sonic has weaknesses... Most people don't take the time to recognize them though. More people complain about a character that isn't even top 5 yet they just are okay with half the cast having Hoo-Hahs and the like.

Sonic himself not having a projectile isn't necessarily inherently bad. It doesn't help though, as a lot of top tiers have them like Diddy's bananas, Sheik's needles, Rosalina & Luma, Luigi's fireballs, ZSS stungun, Pikachu's thunderbolts, etc...

Spring is great but is a completely different projectile fundamentally so we can't really count that as a projectile (it's not used for zoning, spacing, etc.) We actually forfeit stage control by using it, since it is great for edgeguarding or getting out of a situation, it puts us high above in the air, which is somewhere you never want to be in Smash 4, especially when your landing options aren't great, which is a weakness I will also get to.

KO power isn't so much a problem (besides the Bthrow nerf RIP) but his set-ups still are lacking. Better than Brawl, but aren't as free or safe as others (Hoo-hah, bouncing fish, Luma, Luigi Dthrow, etc.)

Ultimately, Sonic's problems lie in his approaches and landing. With the spring autocancel distance heightened, it's hard to safely spring and dair to the ground without it being easily baited and punished. We lack moves that put a hitbox below us that autocancel, so falling nairs are okay but we have to basically fall into you which leads to us getting shieldgrabbed.

Approaching is difficult against zoner heavy characters. Getting walled out is brutal, despite popular belief. For bad projectiles (Samus) then yes, Sonic is "2 fast" and can get through walls easily. But GOOD PLAYERS with GOOD CHARACTERS (like Rosalina and Luma or Olimar and Pikmin) can make approaching hell. We have to approach, or just hope you mess up and we can run and punish. Sonic's game is primarily punish based, so if you're just creating SAFE walls, then Sonic is in such an awful situation.

It takes a huge understanding of yourself, the player, and the match-up to actually be aggressive and break down good walls. Sonic requires reads so heavily that a scrubby Sonic can get shut down easy.

Scrubby players will lose to mediocre Sonics because they can't handle spins, but spins themselves aren't that strong. It's the mix-ups and options that come with them that make him good, when utilized by a smart player who avoids patterns but finds yours.

At the end of the day, Sonic has to be in your face to do anything. His speed and lack of commitment to approaches leads to a heavy bait-and-punish playstyle. It's not true rushdown like Diddy or Sheik who can safely poke just out of range while also pushing you out.

There are benefits to spins as their shield pressure and mix-ups on shield are safer from Brawl, but with the damage nerf, more things clank with spins and they do less damage so it's even more work than before.

Sonic really just resets on neutral a lot, and while this is annoying, it's not particularly amazing either. It doesn't inherently put us in an advantage if we're not gaining ground either...

This is also why characters like Fox are very good against Sonic, as Fox totally wins the neutral game, so if all we're doing is resetting neutral, we're putting ourselves in a bad position.

:093:
The BEST ADVICE IVE SEEN ON SONIC ALL DAY THANK U & I TOO ARE A SONIC MAIN.... WELLL the Picture givess it away... lol..
 

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#10
To put it short and sweet.....like candy....Sonic is a brawler who has trouble with projectiles. Find a way to get past his speed. His attacks ARE NOT AS STRONG AS THEY SEEM UNLESS YOU'RE GETTIN WOMBO COMBO'D so work on that shield'n grab game.
 

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#12
This was really helpful.
Thanks @ Camalange Camalange for showing this to me, next time I'll look before asking
Hey, anytime. I'm happy when people learn, lol.
So spindash be traded with, right?
Yes. Most moves clank, but some moves beat it out completely. Almost all jabs will clank. Little Mac's is the best because of how fast it is so it will just eat Sonic completely.

It's good to note not only what moves will beat out Spindash, but what options you have in neutral if it clanks. For example, if you have a jab that's under frame 4, it will come out before Sonic's jab and you win neutral.

:093:
 

phantom man

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#13
His Spindash or side B and down B are very easily stopped/countered. Im serious, nearly anything can stop it, it's just that he's so fast people don't react. I also found out that you can grab Sonic while he's in his ball form. I don't know if you can only do it to a certain special but I did it somehow.
 
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IWinToLose

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#14
Just some random points to address in this topic that were missed:

Camalange's point about Jab/Clanking Sonic's Spin Dash:
If you try to jab/tilt Sonic's spin dash, Sonic can easily SDJ (Spin Dash Jump) and Homing Attack for a free punish. Be mindful about this mix up.

Sonic's Killing Power:
Sonic certainly isn't Ganon when it comes to kill power. Some good set ups for Sonic's kills lie in his spring and footstools. Footstooling your opponent near the edge around 70-80% and an FSmash can net you a surprisingly early kill.

If you spring them in the right direction with an auto cancelled DAir, you can follow up with a smash if they miss the tech or an USmash if they fly off the stage. While seemingly situational, this is one of the 'safer' set ups for USmash (as it's incredibly unsafe).

Up Throw with a fresh UAir can net you some kills at key %'s (typically around 80-100%). However, this isn't a true Hoo-Ha.

I personally end up killing with BAir a lot by just reading their air movement and air dodges.

If you're aware of these options, Sonic loses some of his ability to cheese some KO's on you, further limiting his KO power.
 
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cerealkiller

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#15
Sonic's Killing Power:
Sonic certainly isn't Ganon when it comes to kill power. Some good set ups for Sonic's kills lie in his spring and footstools.
For me that's not killing power, but maybe that's just my interpretation. A character may be phenomenal at gimping and getting early cheesy kills but for me killing power is landing standard attacks and Smash-Attacks without huge efforts and get kills.
 

Camalange

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#16
Just some random points to address in this topic that were missed:

Camalange's point about Jab/Clanking Sonic's Spin Dash:
If you try to jab/tilt Sonic's spin dash, Sonic can easily SDJ (Spin Dash Jump) and Homing Attack for a free punish. Be mindful about this mix up.
The SDJ would still only go over your opponent, and most jabs are fast enough that they can react to a HA, unless they completely commit to mashing a jab which they shouldn't do.

:093:
 

IWinToLose

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#17
The SDJ would still only go over your opponent, and most jabs are fast enough that they can react to a HA, unless they completely commit to mashing a jab which they shouldn't do.

:093:
I've hit many good players with this. It's another mixup like any other. You can do SDJ to not run into the jab and immediately do a no charge homing attack. If you read it and do it a little before the opponent does his jab, you'll beat their jab. Most characters will eat it.

Hence why most really good people don't bother with this and just shield or just chuck a safe projectile at him since there's nothing Sonic can do about this once he releases his SD/SC.
 
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Camalange

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#20
Yes, but I was speaking strictly to what beats a spin roll. It's not a failsafe, but some people don't even know to jab or tilt.

:093:
 

Drippy

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#21
I'd have preferred if this was taken to the FAQ thread, but...

Sonic is actually more commonly played defensively, which I'll touch on later. He's not a true rushdown character at all, and only appears that way if the Sonic is of a very high caliber or higher caliber of their opponent. Also, of course Sonic has weaknesses... Most people don't take the time to recognize them though. More people complain about a character that isn't even top 5 yet they just are okay with half the cast having Hoo-Hahs and the like. This isn't to say Sonic still isn't a top character, but some aspects of his character are severely overhyped.

Sonic himself not having a projectile isn't necessarily inherently bad. It doesn't help though, as a lot of top tiers have them like Diddy's bananas, Sheik's needles, Rosalina & Luma, Luigi's fireballs, ZSS stungun, Pikachu's thunderbolts, etc…

Spring is great but is a completely different projectile fundamentally so we can't really count that as a projectile (it's not used for zoning, spacing, etc.) We actually forfeit stage control by using it since it puts us high above in the air, which is somewhere you never want to be in Smash 4, especially when your landing options aren't great, which is a weakness I will also get to. Spring is only great for edgeguarding or temporarily getting out of a situation, but can sometimes lead to a harder punish based off the reasons I just mentioned.

KO power isn't so much a problem (besides the Bthrow nerf RIP) but his set-ups still are lacking. Better than Brawl, but aren't as free or safe as others (Hoo-hah, bouncing fish, Luma, Luigi Dthrow, etc.)

Ultimately, Sonic's problems lie in his approaches and landing. With the spring autocancel distance heightened, it's hard to safely spring and dair to the ground without it being easily baited and punished. We lack moves that put a hitbox below us that autocancel, so falling nairs are okay but we have to basically fall into you which leads to us getting shieldgrabbed.

Approaching is difficult against zoner heavy characters. Getting walled out is brutal, despite popular belief. For bad projectiles (Samus) then yes, Sonic is "2 fast" and can get through walls easily. But GOOD PLAYERS with GOOD CHARACTERS (like Rosalina and Luma or Olimar and Pikmin) can make approaching hell. We have to approach, or just hope you mess up and we can run and punish. Sonic's game is primarily punish based, so if you're just creating SAFE walls, then Sonic is in such an awful situation. Sonic's approaches only seem great if you're pressing buttons from across the screen for no rhyme or reason, as Sonic has easy, let's say, auto-punishes, because we can get there in a second whereas most characters don't have a response to people pressing buttons from the opposite side of the map.

It takes a huge understanding of yourself, the player, and the match-up to actually be aggressive and break down good walls. Sonic requires reads so heavily that a scrubby Sonic can get shut down easy.

Scrubby players will lose to mediocre Sonics because they can't handle spins, but spins themselves aren't that strong. It's the mix-ups and options that come with them that make him good, when utilized by a smart player who avoids patterns but finds yours.

At the end of the day, Sonic has to be in your face to do anything. His speed and lack of commitment to approaches leads to a heavy bait-and-punish playstyle. It's not true rushdown like Diddy or Sheik who can safely poke just out of range while also pushing you out.

There are benefits to spins as their shield pressure and mix-ups on shield are safer from Brawl, but with the damage nerf, more things clank with spins and they do less damage so it's even more work than before. The only true buff that spins got at all from Brawl to Smash 4 is that due to the change in engine itself, Sonic's spins have more shield stun making them harder to respond to. The only additional mix-up on shield we gained is the slow, multi-hit spin roll. This is the sole reason for spins being better. Other than that, they've literally been nerfed in every other way or remained exactly the same. Sonic being remotely good was completely unintentional from a programming perspective.

Sonic really just resets neutral a lot, and while this is annoying, it's not particularly amazing either. It doesn't inherently put us in an advantage if we're not gaining ground either… At that point, it becomes more of a battle of frames and reactions.

This is also why characters like Fox are very good against Sonic, as Fox totally wins the neutral game, so if all we're doing is resetting neutral, we're putting ourselves in a bad position.

:093:
I hate Sonic and struggle a lot in this match-up so today I took the time to learn Sonic (and that's the only reason why I'm here on these boards) and geez I can't agree much more with most of what was said. I used to think this character was braindead and OP and although he definitely is a top tier and well it is my first day using him, he's no doubt not as easy as I thought he was.
 

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#22
I hate Sonic and struggle a lot in this match-up so today I took the time to learn Sonic (and that's the only reason why I'm here on these boards) and geez I can't agree much more with most of what was said. I used to think this character was braindead and OP and although he definitely is a top tier and well it is my first day using him, he's no doubt not as easy as I thought he was.
It's a miracle that this actually worked.

People are willing to learn.

#blessed

:093:
 

Drippy

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#23
It's a miracle that this actually worked.

People are willing to learn.

#blessed

:093:
I actually want to be legitimately good at Sm4sh so I'm doing a lot to get better at the game and this is one of the few steps that I'm taking. I also plan on learning the basics of characters like Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, etc. all other problematic match-ups for Mega Man. Meanwhile Sonic is more of a player problematic match-up and less of a character match-up for me.
 
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IWinToLose

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#24
The biggest mistake most players make against Sonic is whiffing moves at mid range. Most characters can't do anything to hard punish this so you can typically get away with this against most of the cast, but Sonic will punish you hard. Stop doing random attacks if you're not in range of Sonic and you'll do much better against him.

Some of Sonic's other more 'technical' weaknesses:

Almost all of Sonic's moves are average in speed or slow. He may look fast, but his attacks take awhile to come out. Keep in mind that Sonic cannot string many attacks together. Unlike Shiek, who can NAir you and attack right after you shield it, Sonic doesn't have a single move that allows him this luxury. If you shield something from Sonic, don't be afraid to attack back as he won't be able to beat most characters' options.

Sonic often uses Up B as a combo breaker. If your character's combos can be broken by Up B, keep this in mind and bait it out and go for the punish when Sonic falls helplessly or DAir's back to the ground.

When Sonic releases his SD/SC, know that you have the advantage if you shield it. Thus, if you have trouble against Sonic, simply press shield when he releases SD/SC. You can punish if Sonic misjudges a hit confirm or you can bait his spring or double jump and punish accordingly. Also, knowing the difference between Sonic's SD and SC is very important.

If Sonic does Side B, he can shield cancel and has all the options Oos available to him. However, at mid-long range, this move takes much longer to reach you and isn't a threat. As such, most Sonics will shield cancel at this range. The way to beat this is to go for a fast and safe attack at close range or to simply shield at mid-long range. You can go for the jab but you need to confident with your timing and often times it's easier to just shield.

If Sonic does down B, you will hear multiple charges in quick succession. This move is not shield cancellable and only jump cancellable. However, this move has a much faster horizontal acceleration and velocity. Sonic usually uses this move at mid/long range for hard reads and waits for you to mess up to punish. Simply put, just don't whiff or mess up at mid/long range
 
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Scootch

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#25
I think his weaknesses are that his smash attacks are pretty easy to punish, and he seems to have a pretty hard time getting the kill. At least imo.
 

SneaselSawashiro

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#26
I'd have preferred if this was taken to the FAQ thread, but...

Sonic is actually more commonly played defensively, which I'll touch on later. He's not a true rushdown character at all, and only appears that way if the Sonic is of a very high caliber or higher caliber of their opponent. Also, of course Sonic has weaknesses... Most people don't take the time to recognize them though. More people complain about a character that isn't even top 5 yet they just are okay with half the cast having Hoo-Hahs and the like. This isn't to say Sonic still isn't a top character, but some aspects of his character are severely overhyped.

Sonic himself not having a projectile isn't necessarily inherently bad. It doesn't help though, as a lot of top tiers have them like Diddy's bananas, Sheik's needles, Rosalina & Luma, Luigi's fireballs, ZSS stungun, Pikachu's thunderbolts, etc…

Spring is great but is a completely different projectile fundamentally so we can't really count that as a projectile (it's not used for zoning, spacing, etc.) We actually forfeit stage control by using it since it puts us high above in the air, which is somewhere you never want to be in Smash 4, especially when your landing options aren't great, which is a weakness I will also get to. Spring is only great for edgeguarding or temporarily getting out of a situation, but can sometimes lead to a harder punish based off the reasons I just mentioned.

KO power isn't so much a problem (besides the Bthrow nerf RIP) but his set-ups still are lacking. Better than Brawl, but aren't as free or safe as others (Hoo-hah, bouncing fish, Luma, Luigi Dthrow, etc.)

Ultimately, Sonic's problems lie in his approaches and landing. With the spring autocancel distance heightened, it's hard to safely spring and dair to the ground without it being easily baited and punished. We lack moves that put a hitbox below us that autocancel, so falling nairs are okay but we have to basically fall into you which leads to us getting shieldgrabbed.

Approaching is difficult against zoner heavy characters. Getting walled out is brutal, despite popular belief. For bad projectiles (Samus) then yes, Sonic is "2 fast" and can get through walls easily. But GOOD PLAYERS with GOOD CHARACTERS (like Rosalina and Luma or Olimar and Pikmin) can make approaching hell. We have to approach, or just hope you mess up and we can run and punish. Sonic's game is primarily punish based, so if you're just creating SAFE walls, then Sonic is in such an awful situation. Sonic's approaches only seem great if you're pressing buttons from across the screen for no rhyme or reason, as Sonic has easy, let's say, auto-punishes, because we can get there in a second whereas most characters don't have a response to people pressing buttons from the opposite side of the map.

It takes a huge understanding of yourself, the player, and the match-up to actually be aggressive and break down good walls. Sonic requires reads so heavily that a scrubby Sonic can get shut down easy.

Scrubby players will lose to mediocre Sonics because they can't handle spins, but spins themselves aren't that strong. It's the mix-ups and options that come with them that make him good, when utilized by a smart player who avoids patterns but finds yours.

At the end of the day, Sonic has to be in your face to do anything. His speed and lack of commitment to approaches leads to a heavy bait-and-punish playstyle. It's not true rushdown like Diddy or Sheik who can safely poke just out of range while also pushing you out.

There are benefits to spins as their shield pressure and mix-ups on shield are safer from Brawl, but with the damage nerf, more things clank with spins and they do less damage so it's even more work than before. The only true buff that spins got at all from Brawl to Smash 4 is that due to the change in engine itself, Sonic's spins have more shield stun making them harder to respond to. The only additional mix-up on shield we gained is the slow, multi-hit spin roll. This is the sole reason for spins being better. Other than that, they've literally been nerfed in every other way or remained exactly the same. Sonic being remotely good was completely unintentional from a programming perspective.

Sonic really just resets neutral a lot, and while this is annoying, it's not particularly amazing either. It doesn't inherently put us in an advantage if we're not gaining ground either… At that point, it becomes more of a battle of frames and reactions.

This is also why characters like Fox are very good against Sonic, as Fox totally wins the neutral game, so if all we're doing is resetting neutral, we're putting ourselves in a bad position.

:093:
lol, then I must be a horrible Fox player lol

There was this For Glory Sonic player named Kylin (who used a lot of other characters beforehand to try and **** on me) who eventually picked Sonic into my Fox; sadly unlike my Falco, my Fox isn't as good since for me he's harder to control movement-wise and him being more different than Falco's playstyle sorta makes it hard on me.
I was quite unsure with what to do vs. Sonic via my Fox, and the only way I got him to lose first stock was to fail an up B like I did (we both self-destructed at some point for our first stocks).
So yeah, it's safe to say even to this day I have little idea how to play my Fox (or Falco) vs. Sonic properly nowadays since his hit-and-run playstyle is one of the most effective ones in the game.
 
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