WFT Matchup Hub

[⑨ball]

I'll think of a better title later when I'm cleaning it up. For now we should just get started.

Welcome to the WFT Matchup Hub
Click the links below to find open discussions
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Spoiler: Notice

Having everyone focus on one matchup at a time is ideal, but not realistic for our relatively small player base so sub-threads will remain open/active, and be created as we need to discuss them. Rather than doing things like saying character x is good or bad, giving out debatable mu numbers or listing the pros and cons we need to be focused on how to beat them consistently regardless of any other factors. We're a good ways into the game now and we know the basics of character attributes and what makes them good or bad in the meta. We don't need a thread dedicated to saying Greninja is short or Sheik's fair is very safe. We need to focus on the 3 primary states: The Neutral, The Advantage, and The Disadvantage -- how our opponents function, how our kits interact, and how we win. I'll manage this thread and leave the creation of sub-threads to those interested or most knowledgeable about the MU. If you play a certain MU a lot (win or lose) we ask that you share what you know so we can do this right.

These'll be updated with links as they come about.




Ness

Pikachu

ZSS

Luigi

Sonic

Diddy

Fox

Villager

Mario

Yoshi

Pit/D.Pit

Megaman

Falcon

 

[⑨ball]

Wario

ROB

MK

Lucario

Greninja

Pacman

Ike

WFT

Marth

Ryu

Olimar

Roy

Peach

Lucas

Mii Brawler

 

[⑨ball]

Falco

Lucina

Robin

Shulk

DK

Jr.

Charizard

Duck Hunt

Swordfighter

Link

Ganon

T.Link

 

[⑨ball]

Kirby

DDD

G&W

Bowser

Little Mac

Palutena

Doc

Samus

Zelda

Jigglypuff

Mewtwo

Gunner

 

[Macchiato]

reserved for a match up chart

 

[Lord_Espurr]

So who should be discussed first?

 

[⑨ball]

I'll list from worst mu to least worst for Wii Fit.

1)Mario
2)Villager
3)Olimar
4)Pikachu
5)Sheik
6)Fox
7)Diddy
8)Lucario
9)Luigi
10)Sonic
11)Duck Hunt
12)Toon Link

+ Kirby, Yoshi and Greninja are good candidates.

Seems people have more issues with these characters more than any others. A good handful of them are also relatively common in tournament.

 

[Macchiato]

+ Kirby, Yoshi and Greninja are good candidates.

Seems people have more issues with these characters more than any others. A good handful of them are also relatively common in tournament.

Actually the WiiFits and Greninjas agreed that its a 45-55 in Frogs favor

 

[GBAer64]

Well considering Greninja's crouch-like standing pose; I could see how Greninja might have the favor with it's farther ranged attacks, faster running speed, and generally better poke options. I wouldn't say it's that bad since Greninja's moves are also on the laggy side. Thus allowing us Trainers to punish since Greninja's weight iirc is also just right enough to combo with.

I think it's a matter of applying enough pressure to beat an aggressive Greninja's own pressure. Same goes for the more passive types of Greninja's with the only difference being that Sun Salutation and Header might be used more in that case to help keep them on their toes. (This bit is on my accord).


I kinda wonder what the matchups against Mario and Pac-Man are like. I don't really have good enough fights among those two to make any solid conclusions.

 

[Macchiato]

Tbh I think Zelda beats us... The dressed one

 

[⑨ball]

Actually the WiiFits and Greninjas agreed that its a 45-55 in Frogs favor

I know. However, I don't believe MU numbers are interesting or particularly helpful for discussion. When we're revisiting matchups we need to look at ways to win rather than examinations on why other characters have the advantage.

-Greninja snip-

I kinda wonder what the matchups against Mario and Pac-Man are like. I don't really have good enough fights among those two to make any solid conclusions.

@ Fancykong I know you were the one who suggested Greninja might be a bad mu. Do you feel up to heading the discussion on him?

Basic thoughts on Mario tend to be negative among WFT players and it seems a majority consider it a bad if not her worst mu. I have my doubts, but I can vouch for him have a strong neutral and decent advantage state thanks to frame data. @Elite Gaymer plays against Zenyou frequently, so he's a good choice for taking the lead on that discussion.

I've played as Pac-Man and against them but none on the level of Abadango and such. I can run this racket if no one feels like they might be better suited.

Tbh I think Zelda beats us... The dressed one

I wouldn't trust anyone else to do the rundown on the Hyrule monarch, but you're going to have to explain this one.

 

[Fancykong]

Erm, do I need to create a separate thread that will be linked to this matchup hub, or can I just discuss Greninja here? Sorry, this format is a little new to me.

 

[Macchiato]

Erm, do I need to create a separate thread that will be linked to this matchup hub, or can I just discuss Greninja here? Sorry, this format is a little new to me.

Ummmmm 8ball when are you making them

 

[⑨ball]

Erm, do I need to create a separate thread that will be linked to this matchup hub, or can I just discuss Greninja here? Sorry, this format is a little new to me.

Yeah just make a new thread. I'll link it here in the one of the first couple of posts.

 

[Fancykong]

Yeah just make a new thread. I'll link it here in the one of the first couple of posts.

Ok. I'll do it when I get close to a compy.

 

[⑨ball]

Take your time man. An exercise done slow and correct is worth ten done fast for fast's sake.

 

[John12346]

Alright, here's a pretty relevant matchup we should probably be talking about. Enjoy!

 

[⑨ball]

I'll take on Rosalina then as another MU that's pretty vital to competitive play.

 

[Macchiato]

I'll take Zelda because I really know this Match up by heart.

 

[⑨ball]

http://smashboards.com/threads/when-you-wish-death-upon-a-star-rosalina-luma-mu-discussion.410750/

Alright. I've got the Rosalina one up. Took a while because we were all watching EVO, but I've also got some tech incoming to help with MUs in general. Just gotta get my numbers right.

Afterwards if no one has already done it, I'll start threads on Falcon and Ness. We've got some really dirty stuff against them that needs to become commonplace.

 

[GBAer64]

Where by chance would the Falcon and Ness threads be? I'd like to participate in discussions about it : )

 

[⑨ball]

Haven't been made yet. If you feel up to heading the discussion, feel free to start em up. Or you can wait as I'm planning o tackling Falcon soon and I've also got some vital tips for fighting Mother boys.

 

[⑨ball]

So. We just started this and probably already have to take another look at the MUs covered.


I can say right now that Rosalina gets easier. Huge header becomes a reasonable option in customs vs Sheik. Sonic becomes MUCH more manageable as do all of the *******.

Ledge coverage ability skyrockets due to the ease of setup.

Jab setups altered slightly due to better and bigger hitboxes as well as dmg increase on utilt, and KBG buffs across the board.

Most kill percents drop a bit.

In short we've got a lot of lab gym work and revisions to do, but it's all good stuff.

 

[⑨ball]

=bunp=
​

Even if it's just general discussion rather than in depth character specific analyzation and breakdown, having a place we can discuss our issue and share perspectives is invaluable for the development of WFT's meta. Let's pick where we left off and keep it going at an even better pace this time around.

How should I deal with an extremely offensive on a flat stage (Omega/FD)? Since I have trouble with my friend's Ryu and just over all playing against it, since he is an extremely offensive player.

Also how do you feel about using Deep Breathing at the beginning of the match? Since I only really use it to stall in the air, similar to how you would use 's reflector, or possibly and 's PSI Magnet, or possibly 's Farore's Love/. Maybe even different character's counters.

I personally recommend crouching a lot. It's an incomparable footsies tool and in the Ryu MU that's really important as it lets you set the pace. You'll find it pretty easy to powershield or anti air most aerial approaches, and his burst options don't work well at all against it. This forces him to go for unfavorable mixups, or come in slow and play a game where his iconic rewards for winning neutral are massively diminished.

As for DB, using it at the start of a match is a pretty good idea. As DB gets a really good speed(activating) and (less notable) dmg/kb bonus on it's first use, and we use DB a lot, you should be looking to pop that first one and reap it's benefits before you do any of it's other shenanigans like air stalling, instant ledge hopping or platform canceling. I personally usually use it around the 10-30 range the first time since on lightweight fast fallers you can end their stock with full nair>usmash and almost never find a equivalent risk for the reward.

TLDR: Crouch against Ryu to slow him down to your pace and use DB early to reap the bonuses.

I find Wii Fit vs Pikachu fairly difficult. Low profile makes a lot of attacks whiff very easily, thunder jolt alone practically takes away most offstage and ledge options, and Wii Fit doesn't really have too many options against being juggled by him or being popped up by QACs.

Pikachu's pretty annoying. I still feel like he's over rated quite a bit, but I can't deny he does well against WFT for a lot of the wrong reasons. I'll edit this later because she's got a couple of options against a lot of that stuff but it takes a bit more than surface level understanding of the character to know what works and why.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Does WFT have any safe on shield moves?

 

[⑨ball]

Shield safety is largely MU dependent as WFT's landing lag and range must be weighed against her opponent's OoS and shield drop options, but the general answer excluding projectiles and would be auto syncs is no.