Well, thanks PMDT for all of the hard work, mates!

[Engage]

TOO LONG DIDN'T READ VERSION AT THE BOTTOM FOR LAZY PEOPLE:

I really had a blast with some of my buds and all while using Project M, and I even introduced them to Project M before I did to Brawl, but... we'r-- I mean I, am going back to vBrawl until Sm4sh is out in a few. I really appreciate all the PMDT has done, along with the PMBR, but, I just can't get used to all of the many changes PM has made when it comes to competitive play. I rarely find myself using Wave Dash as I see no reason to do all of that extra flashy stuff when I can just go in and out and back in like I normally do. Also, I feel that some of the changes made to certain characters in PM were really unnecessary and lowered their attacking power along with their usefulness. For example, Wario, sure they made him seem more like the Wario from his games, and that's cool and all but... I prefer the Brawl Wario more, mainly because he's cooky, like the Wario I usually see. Like, I dig some of the changes made, like his Shoulder Bash being his side special, but his Shoulder Bash into grab thing is throwing me off, and also the ground pound he has is a lot less useful than Brawl's reverse head spin, and his Down Smash is so much less useful in Project M, to me. It's cool looking, but, it almost never hits as it comes out too slow, and it never makes anyone fly away, I landed it 3 times, all it did was make them fall down. His breakdance spin was a lot more useful to me since it could guarantee a knock back and spacing. And his Back Air, oh man it's so slow... but it looks really well done, animation wise, so props to them on that!

I'm saying that, I really love the PMDT's hard work, and I'm sure it's a blast to do this, but to me, in my opinion, I find some of the changes, only some, to be uncalled for. And some of them are just over the top. Bowser having so much Super Armor it's ridiculous is one of them, and then the High Jump thing he has. Princess Peach's down smash making someone go from 0 to 69% without even charging it, yes, this is a thing and it's ridiculous.

But, at the end of the day, I'm still going to try out Project M 3.5 because it sounds and looks interesting, so I'm not a Project M basher, in no way. I actually like the mod a lot, but, it's just way too much going on in terms of changes. Ivysaur is well done compared to Brawls, mainly having Solar Beam over Bullet Seed. But, overall, I enjoy the experience of Project M with friends, but competitively, it seems to me like there is more that's unbalanced to it, than Brawl itself. Maybe it's just me, but that's what it feels like, mainly, Bowser and the super armor, Peach's Down Smash, Ness's PK Fire being able to rack up Hit Point % like a stack of bricks, it's all just way too over powering to me. I really don't like how Samus is able to use her Missiles when your at 50%+ and destroy your chances of recovering, and the missiles being able to knock back and kill is too much too. There's a reason they were weak in Brawl, to avoid things like that. And speaking of that, I can't get used to the dang Melee air evade either, since I've been playing Brawl for years, I'm used to being able to air evade multiple times and then recover. I'm pretty upset that's removed in Project M as well, but it's to keep more like Melee, which makes sense.

Again, i'll be back when 3.5 is out to give it a go, but by then I'm sure Sm4sh will be out, so I'll just give it a quick go before I leave behind my Wii forever. Best of luck Project M community and the team working on this awesome project.

Regards, Engage.

TL;DR - Project M changed too many of the characters who didn't need it at all to me, and made them less powerful and made quite a few of their attacks less useful than they should be. Also, there's a lot of unbalanced gameplay in terms of some of the attacks characters have, but it's all just an opinion I have, if it's fine to you, and you can play it fine, good on you.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

The reason I find myself playing Melee more often then Project m is because it is more polished; Project M isn't even complete, I'm hyped for 3.5.

 

[Engage]

The reason I find myself playing Melee more often then Project m is because it is more polished; Project M isn't even complete, I'm hyped for 3.5.

That's true, I hope it's not complete and gets a bunch of balance issues revised. I can hardly take playing P;M online because of the unbalancing issues. 3.5 looks amazing though.

I also would like to add, Jigglypuff being able to kill at 0% with down special... yeah, remove that too if you could PMDT. No way should that attack kill at 0%. It literally has a combo of down throw at 0% into up tilt into a short hop rest, and auto kill.

 

[kaizo13]

oh man, jiggs can kill at 0%?
no wonder she's so good in project m

seriously though, a lot of what you are saying is simply misinformation or just your opinion on things, which i can't say many would agree with

 

[Xermo]

It literally has a combo of down throw at 0% into up tilt into a short hop rest, and auto kill.

DI

 

[Engage]

oh man, jiggs can kill at 0%?
no wonder she's so good in project m

seriously though, a lot of what you are saying is simply misinformation or just your opinion on things, which i can't say many would agree with

It's not really misunderstandings at all, more of, things that are in need of a fix in Project M. Bowser shouldn't have all of that super Armor, and Peach shouldn't have the ability to rack up all of that damage with one uncharged Down Smash, even in Sm4sh she can land every hit of that and uncharged is only like 24%? that's a huge difference, compared to the 69% PM can do. And PK Fire for Ness is quite broken in PM as well, if you fight a Ness who uses PK fire to approach you, you'd see what I meant.

DI

Try to DI that annoying throw she has, the roll ontop of you thing, at 0% Hit Points.

 

[9bit]

Try to DI that annoying throw she has, the roll ontop of you thing, at 0% Hit Points.

I think you might not fully understand how DI works. You can start holding a direction (either straight right or left) during the throw animation. So as soon as she starts rolling on top of you, just hold left or right until you're soaring through the air, away from a potential Rest attack.

Another thing you have to realize is that PM is balanced around a higher level of gameplay than it looks like you're at. So things you think are too strong are actually not that great at the top level of play.

But anyway, just play whichever Smash game you like most. One unit.

 

[kaizo13]

Peach shouldn't have the ability to rack up all of that damage with one uncharged Down Smash, even in Sm4sh she can land every hit of that and uncharged is only like 24%? that's a huge difference, compared to the 69% PM can do.

DI

And PK Fire for Ness is quite broken in PM as well, if you fight a Ness who uses PK fire to approach you, you'd see what I meant.

DI


like i said, you just seem to be misinformed or you lack experience. it's alright though, just play whichever game is more fun for you.

 

[Engage]

DI


DI


like i said, you just seem to be misinformed or you lack experience. it's alright though, just play whichever game is more fun for you.

I prefer not having to do too much, for no reason as I said. I don't see a point at all in wave dashing, since, you get across the stage faster, but that's only beneficial for characters who have slippery physics, such as Luigi and Ness / Lucas. But, again, as you said play how and what you want. I also, don't feel I should have to DI a Jiggly Puff since in the past, through Melee, Smash 64, Brawl and now the new Smash 4, Jiggly never seemed like much of a threat to me, and the fact that PMDT made her Rest a 1 hit kill attack, is just beyond ridiculous and is the only factor that has me fearing her. I can't even Team Battle if a Jiggly is there due to at any moment they can just Rest when you don't expect it, and you're done. The teammate can hold you in place with a grapple, rest, you're done. It just feels like Brawl Minus's Jiggly Puff and Bowser in Project M to me.

I think you might not fully understand how DI works. You can start holding a direction (either straight right or left) during the throw animation. So as soon as she starts rolling on top of you, just hold left or right until you're soaring through the air, away from a potential Rest attack.

Another thing you have to realize is that PM is balanced around a higher level of gameplay than it looks like you're at. So things you think are too strong are actually not that great at the top level of play.

But anyway, just play whichever Smash game you like most. One unit.

I know what a DI is, 9bit. I'm saying, I've DI'd that attack many times, but at 0%, and the fact that Jigs has almost no type of lag after that grab, what's the use in Direction Influencing her grapple? You can DI it, and they can short hop rest and have a 25% chance of hitting since you're at 0%, you won't fly as high, or that much out of reach. And again, since this has the annoying Melee aerial dodging physics, it's even worst if you try to evade in the air. I'm not saying Melee was bad, but the aerial dodge in Brawl is just superior in every way to me.

 

[9bit]

I know what a DI is, 9bit. I'm saying, I've DI'd that attack many times, but at 0%, and the fact that Jigs has almost no type of lag after that grab, what's the use in Direction Influencing her grapple? You can DI it, and they can short hop rest and have a 25% chance of hitting since you're at 0%, you won't fly as high, or that much out of reach. And again, since this has the annoying Melee aerial dodging physics, it's even worst if you try to evade in the air. I'm not saying Melee was bad, but the aerial dodge in Brawl is just superior in every way to me.

It depends on what character you're playing (your weight and gravity and stuff). And if you get hit by Jiggs' Rest at 0% (or whatever it is after the throw damage), you can properly DI that and you should be able to get a nice punish off, since she'll be helpless for a while.

I'm not going to even go into Melee vs Brawl airdodge because it's been debated to death. But Melee's is better.

 

[~Dad~]

Yo this is a joke right?

Cause lol

 

[Engage]

It depends on what character you're playing (your weight and gravity and stuff). And if you get hit by Jiggs' Rest at 0% (or whatever it is after the throw damage), you can properly DI that and you should be able to get a nice punish off, since she'll be helpless for a while.

I'm not going to even go into Melee vs Brawl airdodge because it's been debated to death. But Melee's is better.

I agree, the weight does factor in, but I only use light weight or medium weights like Luigi and Lucario and Ivysaur, and yet it's still possible for it to happen. But, I don't really have too much of an issue fighting Jigglypuff, it's usually Bowser being able to Super Armor almost everything I throw at him, as an Ivysaur user, even with the long limbs of the Vines it uses, I'd get any of my Vine attacks super armor'd through via Up Special or side special. Why does Koopa Claw even have Super Armor?

Yo this is a joke right?

Cause lol

Explain?

 

[~Dad~]

Explain?

Notable broken PM characters: Jiggs, Peach, Bowser

Notable well rounded PM characters: Ivy


lmao

 

[Engage]

Notable broken PM characters: Jiggs, Peach, Bowser

Notable well rounded PM characters: Ivy


lmao

What? I never mentioned one character in this post who is "well rounded", more over I said the word Broken a lot more.

Jiggs isn't broken, her Rest is just over the top and insanely high tiered and should be fixed in 3.5 (hopefully) to not 1HKO.

Peach isn't broken, again, I just said her Down Smash is over the top and in need of a fix, as I stated, Sm4sh should be the example, her Down Smash can hit each hit in that game, and only do 24% un charged, while PM's is 69% un charged.

Bowser is broken in general, he has too much unnecessary Super Armor that if abused right, can make you unkillable, since the Super Armor doesn't even get weaker the higher the % is and the harder you're hit during that, which is annoying. His Up B out of shield is annoying, Koopa Claw having super armor is irritating, and most importantly, the fact that he has that over the top high Jump is just... why is that a thing?

Ivysaur, it has insane back air and forward air game, but that was also in Brawl so it's not really much of a problem. And also, the Solar Beam can 100% hit after a Down Throw, even if DI'd so there's that too.

 

[kaizo13]

I prefer not having to do too much, for no reason as I said. I don't see a point at all in wave dashing, since, you get across the stage faster, but that's only beneficial for characters who have slippery physics, such as Luigi and Ness / Lucas. But, again, as you said play how and what you want. I also, don't feel I should have to DI a Jiggly Puff since in the past, through Melee, Smash 64, Brawl and now the new Smash 4, Jiggly never seemed like much of a threat to me, and the fact that PMDT made her Rest a 1 hit kill attack, is just beyond ridiculous and is the only factor that has me fearing her. I can't even Team Battle if a Jiggly is there due to at any moment they can just Rest when you don't expect it, and you're done. The teammate can hold you in place with a grapple, rest, you're done. It just feels like Brawl Minus's Jiggly Puff and Bowser in Project M to me.

Engage, not trying to be mean but the more you post the more apparaent it is that you lack eperience and understanding of the game at a high level.

like you say you don't see the point at all in wave dashing and that it's just for being flashy, when infact it has many uses....one of them being to be able to smash attack while moving in and out
.....then there's spacing, baiting, wavelands etc etc.

 

[Engage]

Engage, not trying to be mean but the more you post the more apparaent it is that you lack eperience and understanding of the game at a high level.

like you say you don't see the point at all in wave dashing and that it's just for being flashy, when infact it has a lot of uses like allowing you to attack while moving

Kaizo, do a Wave Dash with someone like Ivysaur or Tink or Yoshi or Donkey Kong, and tell me you find ANY usefulness in their SUPER SHORT RANGE Wave Dash, as I said in the FIRST POST, Wave Dashing is only a "mandatory" trick if you're using a character who has a fast dash or walk (3), like Fox, Wolf, Falco, Marth, Roy, Mario, Luigi.

If anything, DACUS is WAY more important than Wave Dashing is, since you go further with Dacus, regardless the character.

What were you saying about experience? Must not know how long I've been smashing, even in the "high level play."

I only Wave Dash with Mario or Luigi, because they slide really far, allowing me to slide + up smash or down smash.

 

[~Dad~]

What? I never mentioned one character in this post who is "well rounded", more over I said the word Broken a lot more.

Jiggs isn't broken, her Rest is just over the top and insanely high tiered and should be fixed in 3.5 (hopefully) to not 1HKO.

Peach isn't broken, again, I just said her Down Smash is over the top and in need of a fix, as I stated, Sm4sh should be the example, her Down Smash can hit each hit in that game, and only do 24% un charged, while PM's is 69% un charged.

Bowser is broken in general, he has too much unnecessary Super Armor that if abused right, can make you unkillable, since the Super Armor doesn't even get weaker the higher the % is and the harder you're hit during that, which is annoying. His Up B out of shield is annoying, Koopa Claw having super armor is irritating, and most importantly, the fact that he has that over the top high Jump is just... why is that a thing?

Ivysaur, it has insane back air and forward air game, but that was also in Brawl so it's not really much of a problem. And also, the Solar Beam can 100% hit after a Down Throw, even if DI'd so there's that too.

 

[Xermo]

but that's only beneficial for characters who have slippery physics

Uh, no. Every character benefits from the wavedash, man.

Jigs has almost no type of lag after that grab, what's the use in Direction Influencing her grapple? You can DI it, and they can short hop rest and have a 25% chance of hitting since you're at 0%, you won't fly as high, or that much out of reach.

I only use light weight or medium weights like Luigi and Lucario and Ivysaur, and yet it's still possible for it to happen.

You must be overestimating how long you're in hitstun, because you can easily jump after properly DI'ing (or just correctly DI'ing in the first place) to avoid this "25% chance ohko combo"

her Down Smash can hit each hit in that game, and only do 24% un charged, while PM's is 69% un charged.

you're crouch canceling into the full move. it doesn't autolock you into every hit.

Bowser is broken in general, he has too much unnecessary Super Armor that if abused right, can make you unkillable, since the Super Armor doesn't even get weaker the higher the % is and the harder you're hit during that, which is annoying. His Up B out of shield is annoying, Koopa Claw having super armor is irritating, and most importantly, the fact that he has that over the top high Jump is just... why is that a thing?

This is hard to respond to, actually. lol
Bowser has armor in smash 4, so I guess he's broken there too then, right?

 

[Vashimus]

TL;DR - Project M changed too many of the characters who didn't need it at all to me, and made them less powerful and made quite a few of their attacks less useful than they should be. Also, there's a lot of unbalanced gameplay in terms of some of the attacks characters have, but it's all just an opinion I have, if it's fine to you, and you can play it fine, good on you.

Too many characters are weak and made less powerful, yet there's a lot of unbalance in moves/properties because you find them too powerful. Make up your mind.

Bowser's super armor is justified. What's the point of hitting ridiculously hard if you're such a big target and your attacks are so slow you can barely get a hit off? Many other fighters typically have their big brute characters equipped with some kind of super armor for that very reason, I don't see how Bowser should be any different.

 

[Engage]

Uh, no. Every character benefits from the wavedash, man.



You must be overestimating how long you're in hitstun, because you can easily jump after properly DI'ing (or just correctly DI'ing in the first place) to avoid this "25% chance ohko combo"


you're crouch canceling into the full move. it doesn't autolock you into every hit.


This is hard to respond to, actually. lol
Bowser has armor in smash 4, so I guess he's broken there too then, right?

Over estimating? I'm underestimating, since Jiggly puff is lagless after that Down grab.

I'm not crouch cancelling at all, I was using Luigi and did a half dash step into the attack by accident, and lo and behold, I'm hit by the full attack, again, it's in need of a fix.

Bowser doesn't have the ability to High Jump or "Koopa Claw" in Smash 4, now does he?

Also, look at DK, he's big and a brute, yet he's balanced with almost no Super Armor, is that justified? Explain.

 

[kaizo13]

i give up, have fun guys lol

 

[Engage]

Too many characters are weak and made less powerful, yet there's a lot of unbalance in moves/properties because you find them too powerful. Make up your mind.

Bowser's super armor is justified. What's the point of hitting ridiculously hard if you're such a big target and your attacks are so slow you can barely get a hit off? Many other fighters typically have their big brute characters equipped with some kind of super armor for that very reason, I don't see how Bowser should be any different.

What? I said in Project M, characters have been made A LOT weaker in terms of the damage they can rack up off of a combo, while in Project M, 1 attack is almost 30% damage, I should of clarified I meant combo potential by that, my bad. You're usually hitting so hard it's difficult to even pull a combo off because you're hitting so hard. My buddy even said "They hit so freaking hard and are so heavy in this game, wow."

DK is big too, and yet has almost no super armor. There's no justification for that.

 

[Engage]

i give up, have fun guys lol

Goodbye, Kaizo.

 

[Rᴏb]

--removed--

 

[Jity]

 

[Engage]

View attachment 28946

As I said to the guy above, explain?

--removed--

Explain? Confused me with this gif.

 

[Engage]

Too many characters are weak and made less powerful, yet there's a lot of unbalance in moves/properties because you find them too powerful. Make up your mind.

Bowser's super armor is justified. What's the point of hitting ridiculously hard if you're such a big target and your attacks are so slow you can barely get a hit off? Many other fighters typically have their big brute characters equipped with some kind of super armor for that very reason, I don't see how Bowser should be any different.

Also, to add onto the DK arguement, his Up Special out of shield doesn't kill, Bowser's does. Bowser's Side B is insanely strong DK's is nothing in terms of damage compared to Bowser's, and they're both powerful looking 1 hit attacks. Bowser's high jump can easily lead to a Koopa Claw and a kill, why is that a thing I will never know, he's never had a High Jump in any other smash game. What I 'm saying is, if the "big and brutey" thing is a reason, why is DK not as strong a Bowser?

 

[~Dad~]

Also, to add onto the DK arguement, his Up Special out of shield doesn't kill, Bowser's does. Bowser's Side B is insanely strong DK's is nothing in terms of damage compared to Bowser's, and they're both powerful looking 1 hit attacks. Bowser's high jump can easily lead to a Koopa Claw and a kill, why is that a thing I will never know, he's never had a High Jump in any other smash game. What I 'm saying is, if the "big and brutey" thing is a reason, why is DK not as strong a Bowser?

Yeah why ARE characters different?

 

[Rhubarbo]

@ Engage , if you were the man behind 3.5, how would you run things differently?

 

[Vashimus]

DK is big too, and yet has almost no super armor. There's no justification for that.

Also, to add onto the DK arguement, his Up Special out of shield doesn't kill, Bowser's does. Bowser's Side B is insanely strong DK's is nothing in terms of damage compared to Bowser's, and they're both powerful looking 1 hit attacks. Bowser's high jump can easily lead to a Koopa Claw and a kill, why is that a thing I will never know, he's never had a High Jump in any other smash game. What I 'm saying is, if the "big and brutey" thing is a reason, why is DK not as strong a Bowser?

Because DK is a significantly more agile character than Bowser. His movement is faster, his moves are quicker, his air speed is much better, and his jumps are huge. It's not even a fair comparison.

 

[Xermo]

Look, you were the same guy who thought adding in the rapid jab finishers from smash 4 would require modifying the character's individual model. Why can't you just admit to not knowing 100% of how anything in this game works. There's nothing wrong with not understanding the perspective behind character designs, but you're making it really clear you don't understand much of anything here.

Also yeah, a slower, easier to punish bowser with armor and an extra utility in jumping is much more broken than a faster, more mobile bowser with a refined moveset loaded with armor.

 

[1FD]

You might like this thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/top-players-videos-by-character.340128/

 

[Engage]

Yeah why ARE characters different?

Dad, i'm not saying that. I'm saying, Why make Bowser have ALL OF THIS KILL POWER, but DK is still pretty weak? If PM is going to increase the attack power of things, at least balance it throughout the roster, not just for fan favorites or specific characters...

@ Engage , if you were the man behind 3.5, how would you run things differently?

I can't give a clear saying on that, as 3.5 isn't out yet, but I would definitely remove or add in some things for certain characters, remove some Super Armor on characters, not all of it, just on certain attacks (Looking at you, Koopa Claw...), I would also buff people like R.O.B since his Side B floating across the screen thing just seems like a cool idea but not for a Side B. I would also revert Wario back to his Brawl form, and keep the shoulder bash into a grapple ability, because that's just sweet.

But as i said, I don't know what to change in 3.5 or what i would change, as it's not here yet so they might of already did these changes.

 

[Engage]

You might like this thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/top-players-videos-by-character.340128/

I saw that thread, I liked how most of the players in those videos didn't abuse the annoying things, Bowser's Super Armor (I have no problem with it, there's just TOO MUCH for no reason on him, it's like 80% of his attacks have it!) , PK Fire for Ness, Missiles for Samus, they actually kept it a bit fair and not a 1 sided fight.

 

[GP&B]

Dude, Jiggs' Rest setups are exactly the same in this game as they are in Melee. The fact that you're trying to pass this off as a PM exclusive thing to her says how ludicrously unaware you are of how the games work.

I saw that thread, I liked how most of the players in those videos didn't abuse the annoying things, Bowser's Super Armor, PK Fire for Ness, Missiles for Samus, they actually kept it a bit fair and not a 1 sided fight.

That's because these tactics fail at a high level. In competition, you have zero obligation to give your opponent an inch so your sentiments for a "fair fight" fall on deaf ears. Also, Bowser gets wrecked at a high level so there's that.

 

[Engage]

Look, you were the same guy who thought adding in the rapid jab finishers from smash 4 would require modifying the character's individual model. Why can't you just admit to not knowing 100% of how anything in this game works. There's nothing wrong with not understanding the perspective behind character designs, but you're making it really clear you don't understand much of anything here.

Also yeah, a slower, easier to punish bowser with armor and an extra utility in jumping is much more broken than a faster, more mobile bowser with a refined moveset loaded with armor.

I never said the individual model, I said the animation after a few post as I realized I was looking at the wrong thing and how Smash was made.

 

[1FD]

Dude, Jiggs' Rest setups are exactly the same in this game as they are in Melee. The fact that you're trying to pass this off as a PM exclusive thing to her says how ludicrously unaware you are of how the games work.


That's because these tactics fail at a high level. In competition, you have zero obligation to give your opponent an inch. Also, Bowser gets wrecked at a high level so there's that.

Actually they're worse because the release point on her uthrow is off or something like that
and stages are bigger... so it sucks more that way too

 

[GP&B]

Then there's even less excuse to get hit by Rest out of UThrow. This is really silly.

 

[Engage]

Dude, Jiggs' Rest setups are exactly the same in this game as they are in Melee. The fact that you're trying to pass this off as a PM exclusive thing to her says how ludicrously unaware you are of how the games work.


That's because these tactics fail at a high level. In competition, you have zero obligation to give your opponent an inch so your sentiments for a "fair fight" fall on deaf ears. Also, Bowser gets wrecked at a high level so there's that.

PK fire doesn't fail in a high level fight, what? I've watched Project M matches where a Ness could set up with simple spikes from the air looping from a grapple, into a PK fire chain. Bowser gets wrecked in high level? Is that why he's able to 4 stock people easily if they know what they're doing with the annoyance of Super Armor? I'm not saying Bowser as a character is broken, HE JUST HAS TOO MUCH SUPER ARMOR, why is no one realizing I keep stressing he has way too much super armor?

And I know Rest is also in Melee, and so are the set ups.. again, I 've played Melee competitively with my cousin for years, and Jigglypuff's rest wasn't a 1HKO in Melee.

Then there's even less excuse to get hit by Rest out of UThrow. This is really silly.

I never said Rest up throw, it's Rest down throw in PM, into up tilting into a short hop rest, try it out in practice some time, then on a CPU, then on a human, however you want, it's ridiculous.

 

[Xermo]

I never said the individual model, I said the animation after a few post as I realized I was looking at the wrong thing and how Smash was made.

Also, them adding Smash 4's Rapid Jab Finisher would take a while due to having to rework the 3D model of every character with a Rapid Jab at all.

Yeah, you did say it. You corrected yourself after I pointed out to you the issue in your post.