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We'd better be the first character board to have a character guide, or I'll be disappointed

chainmaillekid

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I feel that one of the things that really was definitive about pikachu users last gen, was our definitive, collaborative, player guides. And that such hard work, and actively exchanged information is largely responsible for pikachus tier placement, and metagame development.

We've got the pikachu data thread, but we need to start documenting things like, basic combos, and... stuff like that.

So, yeah.

What do we need to do, what can we do with what we currently have ( demo ) , and who here can do it?
 

Choice Scarf

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It would be great if a pro player could post a full analysis, but they'd likely want to keep the info to themselves to have the leg up in tournaments. Still it's never bad to have discussion, so I'm down for some theorycrafting until I get the demo. Let's just hope interest in Pika doesn't wane and activity on these boards die out.

Anyway, these are all based on observations, but I can attempt to start us off:

Pika's greatest strength right now seems to be how quickly he can attack, thanks to a combination of general ground/air mobility, good auto-cancel aerials, and especially the extremely little startup lag on his normals. Pikachu is immediately able to counterattack out of many situations, so he is very good at both whiff punishing and stuffing opponent's attacks. For example, I saw shofu's Pika beat out a lot of Zero's ZSS's moves before he could attack. Pivot F-tilts are really good for this reason, and I want to say Pika should be able to short-hop air dodge aerial (is there a name for this yet? SHADA?) with Fair and Nair, maybe Uair, but I'd like someone to confirm that.

Other strengths have transferred from previous games. Pika's speed and small size allows him to evade opponents' attacks well, so he can use hit and run tactics effectively. This would of course give him favor on large stages and stages like Battlefield with decently spaced platform layouts. His recovery is still godlike (Skull bash I think has even more distance on it, so it's probably even better than Brawl), so with proper DI he can usually always return to the stage. Standard QA should still be tricky enough despite the changes to ledge mechanics, thanks to the direction mix-ups and (speculating but) that new knockback on the second zip potentially threatening stage spikes. Skull bash's hitboxes also seem to cover his head now, so it has better protection. And of course, QA means he can go very deep for kills offstage, which complements edgeguarding tactics from his specials. Finally, most of Pika's moves are also quick in terms of endlag, so Pika's lower power (damage on moves) is compensated by DPS tactics.

I see 3 weaknesses for Pikachu, though the last one is probably the most unknown right now. First, Pika is a lightweight (I think 79 when the average roster appears to be in the 90s), so you can't take too much damage or else even the large blastzones won't save you. I'm also assuming that weight influencing hitstun is still a thing, so be wary if the opponent can combo very well. Second, Pika still has low range and disjoint, which forces him to go in for damage and limits his ability to space and zone. His shield size and grab range is also small, so the opponent will know that Pika would want to go in in order to get more options, meaning zoning particularly effective against Pikachu. Good fundamentals with DI, spacing/movement, and aggro mindgames can still help solve this as it has in the past given good APM.

The third weakness we should focus on first is the lack of kill power. Pikachu's U-smash, F-smash, and Thunder have all been nerfed, generally in range and/or distance, and combined with the larger blastzones this makes killing opponents raw with Pika not quite viable until around 120-150%. Thunder is particularly painful because when U-smash was nerfed in Brawl at least you could still Thunderspike. But thanks to the meteor in the cloud we have to settle for comboing into the thunder "splash", which seems to have reasonable knockback but the opponent could DI (maybe even meteor cancel?) before move finishes. The range nerf also means you can Thunder and miss because the opponent is too high (and as a long time Pika main that makes me sad), so you can't U-smash or U-throw Thunder at too high a percent. U-smash is actually slightly laggier on start-up, so I'm not sure how safe it is outside of shield anymore (probably okay, but still).

Because Pika can't kill at low percents anymore, this means the player will have to put in much more work to rack up damage, and it doesn't help that Pika got damage nerfs across the board either. So if you want to commit to Pika, don't be dissuaded that you'll need more effort and more button pressing to be effective with him compared to other characters (though honestly this applies to all games). That being said, we can work on Pika's meta by figuring out the following things:
  1. Figure out what percents Thunder stops and starts comboing into itself. Thunder is not Pika's primary move but it can be useful to master it now for potential future applications (B-reverse meteor edgeguards anyone?). It would also help get a feel of the roster's fall speed and weight since both are involved in the combo, so knowing which characters are particularly vulnerable will be interesting. Knowing if the opponent is always sent in front of Pika can help too. U-throw/U-smash/U-tilt to Thunder are probably combos for this.
  2. EDGEGUARDING! One's of Pika's greatest strengths, the edgeguarding game will be more dynamic than ever thanks to the new ledge mechanics and how everyone seems to have really good recoveries. We should learn to be particularly creative here since we have a healthy dominance offstage. For example, I'm curious about how good fastfalling Bairs are for dragging the opponents down.
  3. Solidify the low-percent game - basically make sure Pika racks up damage while the opponent is still suffering low knockback. Master Uair chains and tilts out of approaches and defense, to the point where you can start using higher knockback moves like Nair, Dair, Dash Attack, and F/B-throw to try to get the opponent offstage.
  4. Not new, but overall just make sure Pika's neutral game still works. Approachs will probably be melee-esque with SHFF aerials (Fair, Nair, Uair), especially since QAC is unconfirmed right now. Implementing Pivot F-tilts/F-smashes and "SHADA" might be the new meta, so see how effective that is.
Finally, keep note of which characters and playstyles you have trouble with. Pika is looking to be a particularly effective rushdown character with gimping prowess, so he's probably going to suffer against characters with large range or gimp-proof recoveries. I think the demo has a good mix of playstyles to test this out, but all the more power to you if you have the full version.

That's all I can think of for now. We'll need more research for a proper guide but hopefully this works as a good launching point.
 

chainmaillekid

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I'll get back to your reply when I get a min.

What it SHADA? this is the first I've heard of it.

Also, I do have 2 3ds's, both with the demo, so I can easily enough do testing for really basic stuff.
perhaps even grab frame data on sandbag. so maybe I'll start with that when I get the free time.
 

SonicZeroX

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Thunder is particularly painful because when U-smash was nerfed in Brawl at least you could still Thunderspike. But thanks to the meteor in the cloud we have to settle for comboing into the thunder "splash", which seems to have reasonable knockback but the opponent could DI (maybe even meteor cancel?) before move finishes. The range nerf also means you can Thunder and miss because the opponent is too high (and as a long time Pika main that makes me sad), so you can't U-smash or U-throw Thunder at too high a percent. U-smash is actually slightly laggier on start-up, so I'm not sure how safe it is outside of shield anymore (probably okay, but still).
Pikachu has a custom Thunder that not only makes it start higher up, but it's actually STRONGER if it hits high up.
 

Choice Scarf

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@ chainmaillekid chainmaillekid It's just something that was on GIMR's stream, where you short hop and air dodge after a dash as an approach, but before you hit the ground use an aerial that autocancels to avoid the air dodge's endlag. Not sure how useful it is right now, though I think it has potential to be a useful mix-up as a defensive variant of the standard aerial approach. If more people test it out and incorporate we can see how well it works if at all. At least with Mario he could SHADA Nair, so I want to say Pika has some ability with it as well. And I just made up the term "SHADA" as an acronym - I hope there's a cooler name somewhere else on the boards.

@ SonicZeroX SonicZeroX That would be awesome but the biggest issue with it is whether or not custom moves will be legal. If so then, then hell yes to all of the cool custom things Pika can do (he's apparently got a paralyzer and QA meteor too!), but we should probably stick with the default layout just to be safe for now.
 

SonicZeroX

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I hope they're legal because it looks amazing
 
Last edited:

Illuvial

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Why would you want us to rush a guide out? If you're going to have a character guide you'd want it to be accurate, informed and in-depth. Sure you can add to and edit it as time goes on, but rushing a guide out for the sake of having a guide seems kinda silly. I dunno, I'd prefer to wait for a REALLY good guide to come along as opposed to get a ****ty guide within the next couple weeks
 

chainmaillekid

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Not waiting to get started =/= rushing to get it out.

And a guide doesn't need to be in-depth. I mean, yes, a guide is more useful when it can go in depth.
But you can bet the players guides that will come out for the game will have nice little guides for each character, and none of them will be in-depth.
Accuracy, that is important of course. And informed... I take that to kinda overlap with accuracy.


A REALLY good guide isn't just going to happen.
 

Muhznit

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Better to have a crappy guide than none at all. I still remember the big list of Pikachu tricks we had a while back for Brawl. If it's of any help:

* Quick Attack's second hit can actually kill in sudden deaths (something which we'll probably see a lot of in the new meta)
* That one D-Tilt trick where you down tilt and do an attack for a tiny bit of backwards momentum is still in. I rolled towards a ledge, D-Tilted, then Thundered. Pikachu slid off the ledge easily.
* It's possible to do a Quadruple Thunder on Final-Destination-mode stages from said Down-Tilt trick. First Thunder comes after the Down-Tilt, hits you and boosts you up enough for another one. You can do one more, then you HAVE to jump or you die. During that jump, you can get the third Thunder when you're in the magnifying glass. That boosts you up enough for the Final Thunder, at which point you can quick attack twice back upwards. The last step is tricky to do if you aren't good at obtuse angles.

This is all tested on the American Demo.
 

Zigoon95

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Is it an impression or is Quick Attack easier to perform? I hadn't used him in precedent Smashes because I had some troubles with the second hit, but in the demo it seems that I have no problem.

Anyway, although I haven't much experience with competitive game, I have noticed, while playing with my brother, that Pikachu comboes very hard, especially with utilt-usmash-uair-other aerials. Also, his back aerial is capable of KOing even at low percentages if used properly in the low part of offstages (I experienced mostly ΩBattlefield), due to the impossibility of the opponents to recover and/or counter, but it's a bit risky doing it at the very bottom.
 
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