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We Should Make a Doubles Thread

Dakrah

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
21
Location
Miami, Florida
Seriously. Fox is an awesome candidate for doubles play, not to mention almost every tournament has a doubles bracket. You almost never see threads dedicated to doubles play on smashboards and, while we're working on our general gameplay and metagame, we might as well incorporate this aspect of the game into discussion and analysis.

We could talk about things like:

- Fox's role in a team (damage racking, killing, support, etc.)
- Potentially strong partners/complements for Fox
- How to effectively use lasers (avoid hitting your teammate!)
- Matchups that used to suck (i.e. Pikachu and Sheik) are no longer as bad at all with a good teammate
- Any other ideas?

I think this would make for some pretty good discussion. Maybe we could talk about possible teammates each week or just talk about fitting some roles with Fox.

Either way, tell me what you guys think!
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
me and my friend were for an entire year, the best doubles team in australia, and I know doubles well.
but thats with snake, I've made the transition to all fox in singles but not doubles

I just cant get the hang of him (also wolf/wario are probably not very compatable with fox)

but what I have found anyway is that my favorite characters to team with are peach and toonlink.

I remember reading somewhere ages ago on these boards that peach is foxs best partner since the two are supposed to gel really well:

fox can kill where peach cant
foxs lasers are great for activating peachs toad counter if your in synch enough
peach can hover just outside of fox's usmash range, letting fox be alittle more reckless with it, and also she can pressure them into fox's usmash with her dair.
fox can work with items somewhat
peach can help fox recover (intercepting sideB with uair or some ****)
fox can help peach recover (if peach is floating under the ledge it gives fox plenty of time to get under her and upb back up to the stage)
etc etc

something like that, as for toonlink I like toonlink to camp and spam projectiles, while I as fox weave through the opponents and the projectiles and use them to your advantage (this is hard to do because you really have to be in synch with your team mate and know his spam game well)
the advantage of this is that fox can distract them, build up damage and get the kills, while toonlink mega stock tanks (because he's just running away and keeping them out of range with his spam game and ****)
but the disadvantage is that the opponent can double team you if toonlinks spam isnt working well enough, and fox isnt really suited to a 2v1 situation

this is all stuff I've got from friendlys and whatnot, none of this has been properly tested in tourney.
 

Dakrah

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
21
Location
Miami, Florida
me and my friend were for an entire year, the best doubles team in australia, and I know doubles well.
but thats with snake, I've made the transition to all fox in singles but not doubles

I just cant get the hang of him (also wolf/wario are probably not very compatable with fox)

but what I have found anyway is that my favorite characters to team with are peach and toonlink.

I remember reading somewhere ages ago on these boards that peach is foxs best partner since the two are supposed to gel really well:

fox can kill where peach cant
foxs lasers are great for activating peachs toad counter if your in synch enough
peach can hover just outside of fox's usmash range, letting fox be alittle more reckless with it, and also she can pressure them into fox's usmash with her dair.
fox can work with items somewhat
peach can help fox recover (intercepting sideB with uair or some ****)
fox can help peach recover (if peach is floating under the ledge it gives fox plenty of time to get under her and upb back up to the stage)
etc etc

something like that, as for toonlink I like toonlink to camp and spam projectiles, while I as fox weave through the opponents and the projectiles and use them to your advantage (this is hard to do because you really have to be in synch with your team mate and know his spam game well)
the advantage of this is that fox can distract them, build up damage and get the kills, while toonlink mega stock tanks (because he's just running away and keeping them out of range with his spam game and ****)
but the disadvantage is that the opponent can double team you if toonlinks spam isnt working well enough, and fox isnt really suited to a 2v1 situation

this is all stuff I've got from friendlys and whatnot, none of this has been properly tested in tourney.
That's strange, I did the same thing but with opposite results. I was doing alright with Snake, but once I switched to Fox in doubles, we did really well. I think that Fox, in general, does a better job dealing with doubles.

The Peach suggestion seems like a pretty good idea, to be honest, but I've never actually seen it nor do I have a Peach player to play with. Have you ever actually had Peach intercept your side B from below the stage? That seems like it'd be too difficult to actually execute in a fight.
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
nah I havnt, but I think the option is there at least as I've seen it done.
I think that peach as a doubles partner would be very good and rewarding but only if you put in alot of time and effort to really get to know it.

I find snake works amazingly well in doubles if you have the right partner, probably one of the better characters as he can fight 2v1 better then most.

I think that fox isnt that great in group fights, so you need a character that can keep up with him without getting in his way so he doesnt get double teamed, thats how I feel about him anyways.
 

Dakrah

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
21
Location
Miami, Florida
Well I feel that one of the best ways you should be choosing a doubles partner, as far as characters are concerned, is to complement the weaknesses of your own character. For example, I find that I do really well when I team with Marth because he's able to effectively pressure opponents by zoning and can hold his own in a 2v1. Fox then can either provide support (i.e. follow up one of Marth's attacks, creating a team combo; lasering) or Fox can take one of the other characters if they decide to approach, putting him in an advantageous position. Peach doesn't seem like a bad idea at all, for similar reasons. Problem is that I've never seen it done.

So based on what you're saying, you don't think Fox should be involved in 2v1's (which I understand) but instead support? What do you think Fox's role in a team should be and how does it change with the teammates' characters?
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
well I guess that all depends on who's he's teamed with and who he's versing.

obviously he excels at killing, so thats always a good role

and depending on the opponents and the level he can be a good stock tank aswell by simply running away and not engaging.

racking up damage is good too, espcially against heavies.

fox can work in 2v1's sure, but I think he's not suited for it and against say a double marth or a mk and anything, he'd get megaraped imo.

generally, playing a sort of campy style works better then approaching I think.
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
no I havnt, pretty much all of my experiance in doubles with fox is what I've tested out with a bit of theory crafting here and there (ugh), so I'd take my opinions with a grain of salt.

I might give them a look abit later.
 

Dakrah

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
21
Location
Miami, Florida

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
I was only able to watch the half of the second vid (the internet at my job really doesnt like youtube)
but aside from the occasional helping each other out with recovery, they seemed to sit at opposite ends of the stage and engage their opponents in 2 1v1's

whilst that can work well, espcially for 2 characters that dont get together well, I feel that can never be as effective as 2 people working together as a team, whether that be an overall stratergy, comboing their attacks together or whatever, its hard to achieve but is very hard to play against and looks amazing.


kind of off topic, as this is about wolf and snake, but heres an example of the kind of team play I'm talking about


Ok so I'll explain basically how we do Wolf/Snake.

Like in alot of doubles teams, both players need to be very aware of their roles. We play a pretty complex strategy in that we have alot different situation that we use a certain strategy in. Basically our major goal against most combinations we play against is to get the "Walls of Elysium" going. It's basically camping in doubles.

The standard "Walls of Elysium" (Elysium is our crew before you ask), is just Wolf spamming the **** out of blaster/SH blaster and Snake lobbing grenades over the top of him. This doesn't sound like much but even in a 2v2 situation this can do some good damage to the opponents. The grenades are quite damaging by themselves as you'd already know, but the blaster adds a fair bit of unpredictability to it.

It's difficult to defend against, especially on a stage like FD, because you can pretty much have snake throwing grenades constantly, with less lag than usual, because the blaster will often hit grenades, allowing him to throw another one quickly. As I mentioned before, this also adds some unpredictability because the blaster disrupts the usual grenade timing. If someone tries to pick one up, they get hit with a blaster. If that doesn't make the 'nade explode, snake can just grenade strip, which means they take a blaster, a nade, and then potentially another blaster.

The "Walls of Elysium" is best space with snake's back to the edge. Even if somebody gets through our spam, we space ourselves so that wolf is just out of snake's utilt range. This cuts off alot of approaching options. If an opponent tries to jump over wolf, wolf uses uair, which will often force an airdodge to the ground, right into a snake utilt/ftilt. Get *****. While it's not necessary to have a ledge begind snake it does make it alot easier. HOWEVER, if snake has a mine behind him that deters opponents from going over there anyway.

A further expansion on this is to plant a c4 under wolf. The only downside to this is that Wolf must be aware of the timing and not be standing on the c4 when it explodes (duh). BUT if wolf gets a grab while standing on the c4, he can dthrow as snake detonates the c4. Wolf's hurtbox actually goes higher than the c4's hitbox can reach, so the opponent takes damage and knockback from the c4 rather than the dthrow.

If there is no c4 below wolf, he can bthrow to a snake uair or DJ nair really easily

Dthrow > Mine is lols.

We love dthorw utilt. Peopele seem to miss the tech more in doubles because there's so much going on so you can like dthrow someone accross the entire stage into a snake utilt. This can be enhanced if Wolf is stickied with a c4. Imagine dthrow, utilt, c4. :O

We also have several starting setups. Let W represent wolf, S represent snake and O represent the opponents. These setups are assuming you all start on level ground and are reasonably close like on SV or delphino or something like that.

IF: W S O O
Ftilt wall. Snake starts with an ftilt, wolf can SH blaster over snake's head (barely which is lols). This means if they try to do anything but shield, they will get hit by snake's ftilt. If they try to jump over it, they will prolly get hit by the laser, which will knock them back down into the ftilt.
This can be implemented decently on FD aswell but snake has to be a bit more careful because he'll actually need to MOVE to hit them with ftilt(god forbid).

IF: S W O1 O2
If 01 doesn't have a decent ranged attack that is also faster than wolf's ftilt, you can safely ftilt in most situations here with wolf, then go straight into "Walls of Elysium". On FD it's usually more practical to go straight into walls of Elysium.

If we don't have "Walls of Elysium" going, generally Wolf does damage while snake stock tanks, then when we get them to a decent % snake throws in an utilt, GG.

Also snake dthrow > wolf charged dsmash is good. We seem to hit that a fair bit and staling wolf's dsmash doesn't matter AS much because you have snake there to kill if necessary.

Using wolf to control the air and snake to control the ground is a good idea if you're near eachother.


I'm sure I'm missing something...

Anyway that's the basic idea...
ok heres some vids

a grand final set
matches 1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0XvphWxYNk (ted used wario in the second match)
matches 3 and 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iovzfxv7POE (7:24 and 8:38 for the lols)

these guys play us alot and are quite used to the "walls", however you'll notice just how effective they can be

heres some more against those guys in winners finals of the same tourney

1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpU6wh9Mvfw
3 and 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BehhHgAEDI

us playing another good team http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGrENrywGcQ

so yeah, that should give you some ideas
 
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