Waveshine Combos

[CeLL]

I'm just learning to play P:M Fox. I've never played Melee Fox.

I can waveshine consistently, but I always have trouble actually following one up with another attack. I don't think it's that I'm not wavedashing far enough; if I adjust the angle any more horizontally, I do an air dodge. What am I not doing right?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Shine
WD
Walk forward a bit
Follow up

 

[CeLL]

Thanks. I didn't know you needed to walk any.

What about the characters that fall down when you shine them?

 

[Foxy K]

Just do the same thing except instead of a guaranteed follow up, you either have to tech chase or continue to pressure them.

 

[CeLL]

Okay, so I've got it down now, but now I've got the problem of what to follow up with. Besides an usmash when they're at kill percents, what is a good follow up?

 

[Foxy K]

Grab is easily the way to go, if they don't slide too far or get knocked down. If they slide too far get knocked down, you can dash dance to either pressure or tech chase, the latter of which will lead into a grab.

Dash dancing if they slide too far more or less resets you to neutral, but it's a neutral that's X distance away from where the shine happened, so you're gaining ground.

 

[CeLL]

Thanks again. On a side note, grab follow ups. Uthrow -> Uair always or what?

 

[Juker]

If they fall down, wave shine into a jab. This will force a standup and while they're standing up, up smash. Also, you do not need to walk forward unless the other person goes out of range. Characters like Link can be shined into another waveshine all the way across levels.

 

[foxygrandpa]

If they fall down, wave shine into a jab. This will force a standup and while they're standing up, up smash. Also, you do not need to walk forward unless the other person goes out of range. Characters like Link can be shined into another waveshine all the way across levels.

If you shine nair into shine on a character and they are slightly in the air or falling down, you can also wavedash dair shine.
You can't waveshine people across levels. If you're doing that, your opponent doesn't SDI the shine. Its practical to do once or twice, but by then an opponent should catch on and SDI the shine.

 

[Foxy K]

Thanks again. On a side note, grab follow ups. Uthrow -> Uair always or what?

Yeah pretty much. That combo is more difficult in PM for some reason (no one seems to know why), so carefully read which way they DI your throw. If they're at too high of a % to follow up your Uthrow effectively, either get them offstage with a Fthrow or do Dtrhow SPARINGLY as a mixup. The problem with Dthrow is that it can be hard to follow up on. The animation is long so they have time to tech it. If they don't DI (unlikely) you can get an utilt or shine. If they DI in front of you (should be unlikely), usmash. If they tech it, I don't think you can move again fast enough to follow up, but it depends on the techroll of the character. If you can get to them quickly enough you can go for a dash attack (which they'll probably shield) or a grab (better). An example of a character with a crappy enough tech roll to do something would be C Falcon.

Or maybe I'm full of it and you should never dthrow. Anyone else wanna take this?

 

[foxygrandpa]

Yeah pretty much. That combo is more difficult in PM for some reason (no one seems to know why), so carefully read which way they DI your throw. If they're at too high of a % to follow up your Uthrow effectively, either get them offstage with a Fthrow or do Dtrhow SPARINGLY as a mixup. The problem with Dthrow is that it can be hard to follow up on. The animation is long so they have time to tech it. If they don't DI (unlikely) you can get an utilt or shine. If they DI in front of you (should be unlikely), usmash. If they tech it, I don't think you can move again fast enough to follow up, but it depends on the techroll of the character. If you can get to them quickly enough you can go for a dash attack (which they'll probably shield) or a grab (better). An example of a character with a crappy enough tech roll to do something would be C Falcon.

Or maybe I'm full of it and you should never dthrow. Anyone else wanna take this?

Some characters can't be affected by up throw up air. For example, bowser can nair before fox gets too him, or samus is too floaty for fox to follow up. Down throw is helpful if you want to tech chase them for an upsmash. Its especially helpful on platforms with limited space for the opponent to tech.

 

[Foxy K]

Some characters can't be affected by up throw up air. For example, bowser can nair before fox gets too him, or samus is too floaty for fox to follow up. Down throw is helpful if you want to tech chase them for an upsmash. Its especially helpful on platforms with limited space for the opponent to tech.

Thanks for the input
I have to say though that uthrow uair seems harder on everyone. Maybe I just haven't practiced it enough.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Thanks for the input
I have to say though that uthrow uair seems harder on everyone. Maybe I just haven't practiced it enough.

The upthrows in general feel different with everyone. Noticeably with pikachu. It might be just me but I definitely feel something different.

 

[Foxy K]

The upthrows in general feel different with everyone. Noticeably with pikachu. It might be just me but I definitely feel something different.

Strange. Maybe in 2015 they'll release a changelog and we can get to the bottom of it.

 

[CeLL]

So waveshine, walk if they slide too far, jab reset if they fall down, then grab or usmash.

How far they go when they're shined is determined by the same thing that determines how far they wavedash, right?

Also what determines if they fall down? Do you just have to memorize which ones do?

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Juker]

If you shine nair into shine on a character and they are slightly in the air or falling down, you can also wavedash dair shine.
You can't waveshine people across levels. If you're doing that, your opponent doesn't SDI the shine. Its practical to do once or twice, but by then an opponent should catch on and SDI the shine.

Well, although I was only using this as an example of the different reactions different characters have to the shine, and not necessarily implying it is a practical tactic, this leads me to believe you've never watched chillin play. He literally has shined players across stages, and this is in tournaments.

Also, I don't think you can can even Sdi a shine. It only has one active frame of hit box and the effect seems immediate. correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[CeLL]

I heard there was a waveshine infinite, but it required literally perfect wavedashes and frame perfect waveshines.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I heard there was a waveshine infinite, but it required literally perfect wavedashes and frame perfect waveshines.

Flat land infinites were taken out of project m I believe. For example, on heavier characters in melee, fox could drill shine wavedash drill shine continuously. I do believe that they took out his infinites. I could pull of the waveshine infinite in melee, but I think the shine is a different angle or something in this, because it still works but is wayyy easier to escape.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Well, although I was only using this as an example of the different reactions different characters have to the shine, and not necessarily implying it is a practical tactic, this leads me to believe you've never watched chillin play. He literally has shined players across stages, and this is in tournaments.

Also, I don't think you can can even Sdi a shine. It only has one active frame of hit box and the effect seems immediate. correct me if I'm wrong.

Because wavedashing was smoother in melee and the shine hit at a more horizantal angle, the infinites were more plausible. Even so in melee, I believe there was a certain way to escape it, but im not 100 percent on that. Shine into shine can be escaped in this, and as a fox player of nearly 10 years, I can say I definitely believe so. Additionally, crouch cancelling the shine is more effective in this game, or at least thats what I feel.

 

[CeLL]

Also, I don't think you can can even Sdi a shine. It only has one active frame of hit box and the effect seems immediate. correct me if I'm wrong.

SDI is done during freeze frames, the frames after the hitbox connects but before you take the knockback, as I understand it, and the number of freeze frames is determined by the damage and type of the hitbox. Shine only deals 5%, but since it is an electric attack (freeze frames x1.5), it probably has a good number of freeze frames to SDI during.