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Wavedashing...

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Bumble Bee Tuna

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OK, I figured wavedashing deserved its own topic, mainly because I want to complain about it.

To start, though, for those who don't know, wavedashing is the process of jumping and instantly airdodging back diagonally into the ground, which slides your character along the ground, often faster than normal running, and provides many more options for attack/defense than just simple dashing. The two methods people tend to use to do this advanced tactic are either to:
Duck, lean forward, and then tap X~R~X~R etc just jumping and dodging repeatedly, or
just hit X and then immediately tap the joystick with R.
Both can work to achieve the same result, sliding quickly across a level (though not down a slope) while still being able to do smash attacks, counters, dodges, or rolls, instantly. It's really hard to do though.

So this is an extremely useful tactic, from what I hear. I've never been able to really get the hang of it, no matter how much I practice. When I do get it, I'm never able to do the move afterwards. I often tap the c-stick to try to attack but it still counts me as shielding and I do a dodge or roll instead.

So here's my beef. Wavedashing is officially a pain in the *** . I think it is an awful addition to the game. I love all the other expert tactics they added since SSB, even when I don't use them much (ground/air dodging, duck cancelling, wallteching, the list goes on...) but this is one tactic I sincerely dislike. It gives me the feel of doing something that was never intended to be done in the game, for one thing, which makes it seem somewhat cheap to me. But more importantly is that it seems to be a necessary skill to play at the top level now and not just a nifty trick to use with Luigi and Marth as I had originally thought. I think needing to do this complex maneuver just to frickin' run makes the game a lot lamer and generally detracts from the enjoyment of the game. From what I hear, in those "crazy japanese videos", all they do to get around is wavedash. Is that what we really want? That sounds ridiculous to me. Not that there's anything we can do about it, but I just felt like stating my opinion that Wavedashes are hella lame.

Moving on, feel free to use this topic to argue or agree with my opinion, or to use it as a place to discuss how this tactic can either be done easier than my descriptions above or to discuss how to use it effectively. Or ignore the post. Whatever.

-B
 

Mista Sinista

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I have to disagree big time. The technique is quite easy to get used to, and once mastered it's great, even if it's just to look like a pro. of course you can move around faster and you can attack or grab while doing it, but have you ever thought of using a backwards one to dodge? if not then i suggest you try it, it's very fast and it escapes the attacks very well, it also makes you crouch, which can dodge projectiles. so if let's say a samus player is really cheap and you can never get close to them, well if you wavedash, you'll go under the projectiles and you'll also get to them, while they're recovering from their shot. this move should not be overused, as such any other, but using it has advantages, therefore making it useful. and if you still think it's useless, here's the easiest solution, don't use it. don't want your opponent doing it? don't tell him about it, and if he already knows, then learn his character's wavedash that way you can intercept it
 

n00b

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Well, to me, wavedashing seems great, but it's too hard to pull off, and it takes away the fun of Melee being a simple yet chaotic game. I knwo the japanese are hella good, overabusing the best of tactics, but you never see any movies, martial art battles, or other video games with people jumping and slamming int othe ground and sliding while arching their back so they are avoiding attack...

If I can get it to work, that'd be great..

But my characters don't benefit from it.
I mean, my characters either have traction or don't need it.
I don't use Marth anymore, never used Luigi all too much.
My Fox is more of a runner, because it allows dash attacks and fake-outs.
My Peach is a jumper/floater, or fights on one spot in the ground.
Ganondorf is a roller/specialist. His roll is VERY FAST and it also makes him invincible. A funny combo for abusing this is tapping A with Ganondorf, then rolling faster tha nthey fly behind them, and tapping A again. It's quite funny.
 
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I hate to be the oddman out, but atleast someone else (Mista Sinista) understands its use.

Bumble Bee Tuna, Kirby123, n00b, Luigiwinsagain, INFESTD, Im going to have to disagree with all of you. Everyone has a wavedash that can be useful. some are harder than others though. Ganondorf's is much harder to pull off that Fox's. Why? Ganon is slower and has better traction. Fox has one of the best options for wavedashing because he's quick, he moves in extremely fast, and conquers. Its the same with Marth only not quite with such emmense quickness as Fox. Luigi is another good example. Luigi has -by far- the best wavedash in the game because its extremely fast and he slides a 1/3 of the Final destination stage. You can do whatever you want, but as for me, the wavedash made my game so much more open and now I believe (My own confidence, not bragging) that I could hang with Mattdeezie(sp?) and all those other guys in Cali. I'm one of the few guys who play melee in this state. Right now, I know about....hmm....12 people that play melee. and thats all over Fl. Some in orlando, some in Tampa, one in jacksonville,etc etc you get the idea. I can beat hmm.... 3/4 of the people i just named. People I have yet to play are Misto Roboto and his friend, My friend Jody and his friend. Im sure there are a few others that i need to play but I know my game has gotten so much better, just because of the wavedash. You guys decide for yourselves, but i wouldnt recommend dropping this tool. I'm trying to get my best friend to start using it because he plays Falco and hes **** good with him. I just think he could be so much better if he utilized the Wavedash more.

Whatever, your choice.

-R.H.R.
 

smashboi

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yeah wavedashing is very useful, in the vids i gave they were only using it for flashy. But when doing it u dont see the person jump only sliding which not only looks tight but is useful.
i mean learn it if everyone else is doing it cause whoever does it has probally mastered it and IS going to use it. So i suggest starting off with mario and going to final destination for a while and practice your arse off, cause there is time for everything in this game.
 

n00b

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Well, Retro, it's more of the style of gameplay you play, I think. I think it's a great tactic, but since I just can't get the feel of the wave, I just don't like it. You have a great point though, it works great and allows all sorts of moves, such as aerial moves on the ground, and the craziest and flashiest combos out there.. but sometimes I see that the japanese or other intense pros kinda take the fun away from a melee, and add complex moves and competition..

But I'd love to battle you guys.. Too bad I'm too young for the e3 expos..
 

Mista Sinista

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in the vid, the way that falco wavedances is amazing. i find that it's best with him and ganondorf because they don't jump before the wavedash as much. people like luigi are harder because they jump with a smaller hesitation, so when you try to do it, more than not you will find yourself jumping then wavedashing, while falco and ganondorf are much easier to do it with
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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Mista and RHR:

Can you guys read? Just wondering. If you had bothered to use those latent reading skills, you might have seen that I'm well aware of the usefulness of the wavedash. That's exactly my complaint. It's annoying to use, yet it's so useful. It gets rid of the simple fun of SSBM and makes it very lame. I already explained, so please, READ my post.

-B
 

Mista Sinista

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yeah i read what you wrote a while ago and i just added to it, but i don't understand what you're talking about. you're saying that just because it's complicated that it ruins the fun of melee? that is the dumbest thing i've ever heard, how can a complicated move ruin a game? it's like your saying "combos ruin the game because they're hard to do". how about, be quiet for two seconds, know what uses it has, master it and realise how good it is and not cuss a move because you can't perform it?
 

CORY

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i feel your pain, b. but i like the wavedash. i can pull it off on the fly about 10% of the time, though, so i basically suck at it... i can do the simple version (where you hold down forward and then jump/dodge) but it's doing it on the fly that troubles me.

and doing it on the fly is where the fun's at. i tried to dash, the wd backward, but i either:
a. just try to turn and run the other way
or
b. end up rolling backwards.

maybe i just need more practice to get down marth's timing or something, but i understand what b means when he says it's complicated to use.
 

Mista Sinista

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of course it's complicated, i'm not saying it's not, but that just means you have to practice it a little. you'll eventually get it, and when you do, maybe you'll love it or maybe you'll hate it, who knows? you don't like it? don't use it. you like it? use it. simple as that
 

smashboi

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Wave dancing and Wave dashing bahh whats the difference? I thought wave dashing is when the character slides across the ground, and Wavedancing is like a triangle jump jump-air dash down foward and u actually see the person jump. and dash dancing?
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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I don't know how I can make it clearer, so maybe I shouldn't try. I can do the wavedash. Sometimes. I don't like it. There's a difference between making the game complex (including complexities like dodging, air dodging, cancelling, teching, etc etc) and making the game a pain in the *** (wavedashing). It's just lame to make a tactic that requires this crazy button combination. If I wanted a game that required lame button combinations to be good at it, I'd play mortal kombat or something. I like SSB because it's mainly about the strategy. The moves are simple: a direction and a button. It's a matter of knowing what moves to do, not knowing how to do the moves. This is what makes SSB so exceptional. But the wavedash kind of eliminates that by being just difficult to actually perform the move with the buttons. That is what makes it lame. Do you understand at all what I'm saying?
I realize the wavedash is a good move.
I just don't think it should be in the game. An instant kill move that came out in .1 seconds would be a good move, but it definitely wouldn't be a good addition to the game. Do you get that? at all? Merely because something is useful doesn't make it a good thing. A character that was 10 times as powerful as the others would be good. It would make the game suck though.
I think that's about as clear as I can make it.

-B
 

CORY

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alright smashboi
1. wavedashing: this is where you jump, but immediately (or almost immediately) air dodge down diagnol forward or backward. makes you slide in said direction a bit. you can string these together and do all kinds of fun crazy crap out of them.

2. wavedancing: this is something i first heard retro talking about (someone else may have brought it up first, but i heard retro first.) what he says it is (correct me if i'm wrong) is dash dancing then suddenly doing a wavedash. either that or it's wding back and forth fast... not sure.

3. dash dancing: even though i brought it up first, it's been in use for quite some time. just dashing back and forth quickly (using the takeoff dash animation.) mainly used to confuse humans as to what you're going to do. that and a taunt to annoy them.
 

Mista Sinista

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CORY, you're close about wavedancing but just a little off. it's not dash dancing then wavedashing, it's just taking the first few steps of a dash then wavedashing backwards, like the red falco did in corneria in those vids
 

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I still don't understand how Mewtwo was able to do his aerial moves during a wavedash. That would make him annoying if he would just wavedash and aerial A the whole time...
If there's a whole method to the aerial/onland moves, I'd like to hear from you.
 

PimpLuigi

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darn you cory for confusing everyone w/ your "dash dance" terminology. *shakes fist*

Anyhoo B, i think you're more worried than you need to be, there were a few exhibits of wd in the ***. videos( crap that's not a slur is it? i was just abbr.) but it's not like they did it all the time, and that's how they got around. And you can always pick a more uneven or moving board that makes it harder to wd. Overall i think you're overreacting to how good this move really is. Like Vien said when he first explained the wd to us all in the mbr months ago- it seems more shall i say "showtime lakers" than anything else. I mean granted sometimes you need a double pump reverse slam, but more often than not a normal dunk gets the job done just as well. It's definately a good alternative to running- especially with Luigi when you have fear of going into his awful dashA when running, but for most other characters i'd almost go as far to say you'd be more profitable improving the rest of your game than learning to wd. Y'know like working on your cross-over instead of your and1 tricks? I know alot of people will say- "well i'm already good at everything else", and they're probably wrong. Overall, while it's definately cool to perform- and i'm not saying it doesn't have it's advantages, but of the characters i mostly only use it w/, the only character that it really seems integral to his game is Luigi. So never fear B, if your game is stronger and the other guy knows how to wave dash it's not going to affect the outcome of the game. I didn't understand why Vien played down the usefulness when i first learned it, i was all like- this is awesome! But honestly you'd be better off working on your combos or fundamentals- fine tuning your dodging, or better yet, powershielding skills- now there's something i'd give up my wd skills in a second to master.

-Pimp
 

Fyre Ball

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Of course. Mastering the fundamentals of the game is more important then learning tricks like wavedashing. It's more then likely that you will still lose to a skilled player who knows his fundamentals even if you have mastered tricks like the wave dash.
 

smashboi

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actually mewtwo didnt wavedash he just did a light jump followed imediately by a foward A while fast falling so that the foward a was close to the ground. Actually a good tactic because this knocks the person in the air thus starting combo.
 

Bumble Bee Tuna

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Well, thank you, Pimp, for making me feel better. Though from what I hear from people like RHR the wd is some kind of sick game-breaking technique...Hopefully you are right. I would certainly be happy with that. I will rest easier or something.

-B
 

PimpLuigi

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i don't remember when Vien told us, but it was shortly after he got here, after i'd convinced MattD to stay and got them both into the mbroom. And since he registered in Dec i'd assume it was some time around there. Although unlike that guy from your link, Vien was already quite adept at it when he told us. He gave us all it's uses, wding backwards, wd into dodge, into attacks etc. And also the name "wave dash", came from him- and is the reason we all use it now.

-Pimp
 

senpyou

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bbt, pl:

i concur with PL *nods head* hehe. although the wd is pretty useful, it hasnt been proven to be a necessary tactic so far. and even though ive thought its only really good for luigi, adam (the luigi player at tg1&2) has proven to me that luigi can be a huge threat on the ground WITHOUT the wd/cd. adams luigi is killer without the wd, but im scared to think of what he could do having mastered it.

so id say, for now, dont worry. but you never know how the games gonna evolve...
 

CORY

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hey, i want a personal color. how about pink?

hmmm.... i've been working on my wd with marth, and it's not all i thought it was cracked up to be. the best use for it in the middle of a match (imo) is travelling across the stage quickly without limiting yourself to your dash attack and grab.

luigi seems to have the best wd game (all that smashing and going backwards whilst attacking forward and what not...) so for any other character it's probably best just to save the wavedash for tricking out or something.
 

Improv

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I think wavedashing is a great addition to the game. It adds a new level of skill to be able to compete with the pros. And the button combination is really easy once you get the hang of it. After practing for about 30 minutes I can now do it about 90% of the time. I use it for combos. When the enemy is just out of reach wavedash to them while they are still unguarded. Bumble bee tuna your analogy of comparing wavedashing to an instant kill move doesn't work. The instant kill move would make te game cheap and boring to play while wavedashing adds more to this addition of SSB, just like air dodging, and power shielding except wavedashing is only a little bit more difficult. All it does is raise the skill level required to compete at an optimum level.
 

Oakeon

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Could some1 plz post up a link of a video where it actually gives an example of wavedashing coz im finding it quite hard to get a picture in my head
-Oakeon
 
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