Wavedashing aside, is the directional air dodge better for Smash than the conserving air dodge?

[Quillion]

I don't see a lot of arguing over the air dodge, even though it's probably the biggest mechanical difference between Melee and the later games.

Leaving wavedashing out of the question, the benefit of the directional air dodge is that it isn't very useful for its intended use, which allows for much greater strategy in evasion.

The conserving air dodge simplifies approaching strategies, but many people do not like it when things are simplified.

Well, that's what I think what the arguments for both are. So if you take wavedashing out of your mind, which air dodge would you prefer?

 

[Vorde]

I think air dodging would be fine in Brawl and 3DS if they made it so you could only use it once like they did in Melee. You go into helpless state which stops people from abusing it. In Brawl and 3DS people just mash it to get out of whatever was happening to them. It makes comboing in those games incredibly frustrating IMHO.

 

[Quillion]

I think air dodging would be fine in Brawl and 3DS if they made it so you could only use it once like they did in Melee. You go into helpless state which stops people from abusing it. In Brawl and 3DS people just mash it to get out of whatever was happening to them. It makes comboing in those games incredibly frustrating IMHO.

But apparently, you can bait and punish air dodges in either game (though it's nearly impossible with the Mighty Glacier characters in Brawl at least).

 

[Spak]

But apparently, you can bait and punish air dodges in either game (though it's nearly impossible with the Mighty Glacier characters in Brawl at least).

That's true, but the non-directional, non-consequential air dodging still makes it near impossible to combo when they decrease the amount of hitstun on many moves. Anyways, directional air dodging is also used for getting back on stage (if you are close to the ledge) in order to mix up your recovery. Another advantage to air dodging directionally in Melee is if you use it in the wrong time, it is very easily punishable and could possibly knock you off the edge or get you killed. Personally, I like directional better because it is more risky and not just free invincibility frames in addition to the extra maneuverability, but you should expect this opinion from someone on the Melee forums.

 

[yttik]

I'd prefer the directional, I like how you can get invisibility and cancel it immediately while moving. I know you said without wavedashing but I mean how you can land with it quickly, not the dash aspect. And I don't mean wavelanding either... eh, hard to explain.

 

[Ringedge]

I think the way airdodging works in Smash 4 would be perfect there was something like 60-90 frames before you could airdodge again, so you can't abuse it from either end.

 

[Quillion]

That's true, but the non-directional, non-consequential air dodging still makes it near impossible to combo when they decrease the amount of hitstun on many moves. Anyways, directional air dodging is also used for getting back on stage (if you are close to the ledge) in order to mix up your recovery. Another advantage to air dodging directionally in Melee is if you use it in the wrong time, it is very easily punishable and could possibly knock you off the edge or get you killed. Personally, I like directional better because it is more risky and not just free invincibility frames in addition to the extra maneuverability, but you should expect this opinion from someone on the Melee forums.

I'm trying to see opinions from Melee fans, Brawl fans, and 4 fans. Most agree that the revamped airdodge in Brawl really widened the gap between the speedsters and glaciers (and it was already wide to begin with).

At least with the conserving air dodge in 4, they've nerfed it quite a bit. Though I agree with the people who say it would be even better if they limit either the amount of times you can do it or limit how fast you could spam it.

 

[Quillion]

Now that SSB4 has had about a month of progression, we can confirm that, yes, the air dodge has been nerfed rather well and combos are a thing (though they are 2-3 hit rather than 2-8 hit; akin to Street Fighter II).

But I still have to ask, if wavedashing was removed (by making it so that you can't slide by airdodging into the ground), would the directional dodge still be better than the conserving version?

 

[Juggleguy]

The short and simple answer is yes.

 

[Quillion]

The short and simple answer is yes.

I'm not looking for short and simple answers.

 

[Kimimaru]

I feel the best air dodge is a combination of both: you can shift yourself slightly to the left or right while still moving with gravity. However, this should be allowed only once in the air and have fewer intangible frames than in Brawl or Smash 4.

 

[Quillion]

I feel the best air dodge is a combination of both: you can shift yourself slightly to the left or right while still moving with gravity. However, this should be allowed only once in the air and have fewer intangible frames than in Brawl or Smash 4.

That would probably break the air dodge even further.

 

[EPsilon933]

Directional dodging feels like you're actually dodging

 

[KenMeister]

I've managed to avoid a few offstage edgeguards doing it should I recover high, so yeah. That's about the only time I've ever used outside of wavedashing, though.

 

[Quillion]

Directional dodging feels like you're actually dodging

Not when you're left vulnerable after the action. It's useless outside of wavedashing.

 

[EPsilon933]

Not when you're left vulnerable after the action. It's useless outside of wavedashing.

Have you ever played as Peach and recovered from above the stage without umbrellaing?

 

[Spak]

Not when you're left vulnerable after the action. It's useless outside of wavedashing.

It can be very useful to mix up recovery.

 

[SAUS]

Melee air dodge is better. Allowing players to affect their position and at a cost (helpless state and punishable landing) is much more interesting/skill-testing.

 

[Teczer0]

I'm okay with the 3DS/Brawl air dodge personally. As long as the airdodge takes a long enough time to recover from so that its not spammable I think its fine.

I think the melee air dodge sorta gives unique ways recovery options but its a bit more difficult to utilize effectively for defensive purposes.

They both have pros and cons, I'd prefer directional only because I think it'll open up new and interesting situations farther down the line but I actually like both *shrugs*

 

[Quillion]

Melee air dodge is better. Allowing players to affect their position and at a cost (helpless state and punishable landing) is much more interesting/skill-testing.

But why would you want to go for an option that pretty much guarantees a free hit on you when you're done?

The more I look at it, the more it seems like Melee is way too offensive and makes the defensive options useless. It really is best to have a good balance like 4.

 

[SAUS]

But why would you want to go for an option that pretty much guarantees a free hit on you when you're done?

The more I look at it, the more it seems like Melee is way too offensive and makes the defensive options useless. It really is best to have a good balance like 4.

"guarantees"
It definitely doesn't guarantee a hit after. You have to be smart about when to use it and you have to be smart about covering that option when you are edge guarding or juggling. You can also use it to land on platforms out of the air that you normally can't reach.

Melee is definitely not too offensive. Getting out of combos isn't defense, it's ability to escape punishes. You have to be clever about escaping punishes. There's a reason melee has more stocks than Brawl and will probably have more than smash 4. You die more easily doesn't mean the game is more offensive.

 

[victra♥]

The more I look at it, the more it seems like Melee is way too offensive and makes the defensive options useless. It really is best to have a good balance like 4.

IMO it's better for a game to be more offensive than for a game to have overpowered defensive options like in Brawl and Smash4.

More exciting for both the players and the spectators.

As much as I love the airdodge frame traps that you get in Brawl and Smash4, personally I prefer to just seem them as straight up combos.

 

[Quillion]

IMO it's better for a game to be more offensive than for a game to have overpowered defensive options like in Brawl and Smash4.

More exciting for both the players and the spectators.

As much as I love the airdodge frame traps that you get in Brawl and Smash4, personally I prefer to just seem them as straight up combos.

Smash 4 has a mix of both, though...

 

[Kimimaru]

I think the melee air dodge sorta gives unique ways recovery options but its a bit more difficult to utilize effectively for defensive purposes.

I also love the Melee air dodge but I agree with this. Unlike spot dodging, you rarely see air dodges being used to simply avoid attacks unless someone is recovering because they're too laggy.

That would probably break the air dodge even further.

Do you mean my suggestion would make air dodges even better then they are in Brawl/Smash 4? I suggested an exchange of vulnerability frames and infinite uses in the air for the ability to move slightly in the X direction. It's impossible to know for sure how it'll work out, but I feel it's a pretty good balance between the two. Feel free to elaborate on your position.

 

[Quillion]

I also love the Melee air dodge but I agree with this. Unlike spot dodging, you rarely see air dodges being used to simply avoid attacks unless someone is recovering because they're too laggy.


Do you mean my suggestion would make air dodges even better then they are in Brawl/Smash 4? I suggested an exchange of vulnerability frames and infinite uses in the air for the ability to move slightly in the X direction. It's impossible to know for sure how it'll work out, but I feel it's a pretty good balance between the two. Feel free to elaborate on your position.

Well, that depends. Would the dodger be helpless or active after the action?

 

[Kimimaru]

Oh sorry, I forgot to mention that. I was thinking active after the action, but now that I notice how good it is for characters with good horizontal air speed, I'll change that to helpless.

 

[Spak]

Smash 4 has a mix of both, though...

But it is still on the defensive side. Shields are bigger and tend to not break as easily, rolls are not nearly as punishable, spotdodges are faster, movement in general is more limited, comboing is harder, multiple air dodges can mean that while you can air-dodge bait you can just whimp your way out of areal punishes if someone was trying to combo, everyone's recovery is too good, there is no edgeguarding, and there aren't nearly as many mindgames in Smash 4. It isn't balanced, it is still on the Brawl-side of playstyles. It's still faster than Brawl, but while Melee was more offensively-oriented, you could still sheild-grab if they try dumb areal approaches, you could dash-dance bait attacks, you could avoid attacks by wavedashing out of the way and then punishing, and do many more defensively-oriented things. Smash 4 is on the Defensive side of Smash and Melee is on the offensive, so which one is better just depends on your perspective on what the game should be. Personally, I like Melee more but that is just my opinion.

 

[Quillion]

But it is still on the defensive side. Shields are bigger and tend to not break as easily, rolls are not nearly as punishable, spotdodges are faster, movement in general is more limited, comboing is harder, multiple air dodges can mean that while you can air-dodge bait you can just whimp your way out of areal punishes if someone was trying to combo, everyone's recovery is too good, there is no edgeguarding, and there aren't nearly as many mindgames in Smash 4. It isn't balanced, it is still on the Brawl-side of playstyles. It's still faster than Brawl, but while Melee was more offensively-oriented, you could still sheild-grab if they try dumb areal approaches, you could dash-dance bait attacks, you could avoid attacks by wavedashing out of the way and then punishing, and do many more defensively-oriented things. Smash 4 is on the Defensive side of Smash and Melee is on the offensive, so which one is better just depends on your perspective on what the game should be. Personally, I like Melee more but that is just my opinion.

Well I'm glad you respect people's opinion and preferences. Some people here (on this site) don't do that (referring to no one in particular).