Wario 2.6 Changes

[arwildcats09]

Wario only feels slightly different in 2.6, but I'm still playing around with him. Other than the arial shoulder bash, what is different about him in this version? Is down tilt slower, or am I just imagining that?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Its the same speed, as far as I can tell the only other thing that got changed was his down smash. It lost some of its range, and it looks like the hitbox that hits you out of the air is either completely gone, or drastically reduced in size.

 

[AbstractLogic]

It seems as if the Bite hitbox has been made larger. For some reason the bite seems easier to land.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm not sure if the new aerial shoulder bash is awesome, or terrible. I felt like it was terrible at first, but the fact that it's shorter, and can be angled, also means you can actually use it onstage to go for aerial finishes with a bit more control.

It definitely hurts his recovery. You can't really use it to slam into the side of stages anymore, cuz if you're in range for that, you could've recovered more easily without it. Probably not too harmful though, cuz wario's recovery is pretty solid due to his great horizontal mobility.

 

[mYzeALot]

I think the answer to his side-b would be to keep the change but not put him into special fall after. It would slightly make his recovery better so he can up-b or air-dodge afterwards. Wario also feels a bit heavier and slower when SHFFLing a nair. It's probably just me though.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

while that would certainly be nice, I don't think that's strictly necessary. Plenty of characters are forced to recover with nothing but their upb in almost all situations, Wario will survive.

Personally, I like being able to angle it downwards. Lets you have more control for zipping from platform to platform on some stages, and can give you a surprise mixup option for getting in on people that you didn't have when it always went upwards.

 

[arwildcats09]

Its the same speed, as far as I can tell the only other thing that got changed was his down smash. It lost some of its range, and it looks like the hitbox that hits you out of the air is either completely gone, or drastically reduced in size.

I didn't notice anything about his down smash, although from what I played today I didn't use it quite that much. However, I did spike someone off the stage with it.

 

[Ace55]

So has anybody noticed that you can now do a dacus with both the dash attack and the upsmash hitting? I think it's because the angle of dash attack was changed but it could be more things. For some reason I also feel like it's easier to dacus with Wario in 2.6.

And yeah, dsmash seems kinda nerfed, too bad.

 

[0RLY]

-Dash Attack angle changed to hit characters more in front of Wario rather than behind
-Forward Tilt hold command increases in damage and knockback for each wind-up, similar to a Smash Attack
-Up Smash does reduced shield damage
-Fixed a bug where Down Smash's outside hitboxes could hit aerial opponents
-Removed "wind-up" SFX on Down Smash's charging animation
-Down Smash does reduced shield damage and has less range but deals slightly more damage
-Neutral Air's hitbox duration matched to the animation length and sourspot angle adjusted to use a general angle rather than a low trajectory
-Forward Air angles adjusted to be the same and sourspot has slightly increased in base knockback
-Up Air sourspot angle raised to match sweetspot
-Turn Grab has a bit more startup to match other Turn Grabs
-Neutral B grab box size increased
-Removed a restriction that prevented Wario from using Neutral B again for 15 frames after Bite Throw
-Side B -> Jump is always at medium power rather than its weakest power
-Aerial Side B revamped to travel mostly straight (angleable up or down) but go a much shorter distance and is stronger. The hitbox is still negatively disjointed but has improved vertically
-Aerial Side B can be canceled by holding Back and its vertical direction can be influenced by holding Up/Down
-Side B jump no longer happens with the analog stick if Tap Jump is off
-Fully-charged Down-B now has heavy armor near the startup and has stronger knockback

It looks to me like Wario got more nerfs than buffs. I guess I really took his strengths for granted in 2.5b.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think Wario is overall a slightly better character in 2.6 than in 2.5. The Fair and Uair angle changes especially really round out his combo tree. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErhNDTaAa9M Check out how I use the new Fair and Uair in combos

 

[\Apples]

I think Wario is overall a slightly better character in 2.6 than in 2.5. The Fair and Uair angle changes especially really round out his combo tree. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErhNDTaAa9M Check out how I use the new Fair and Uair in combos

Why has this character gotten so out of hand? Fair and Uair already comboed very well before and now they seem to practically autocombo. A lot of the design decisions I see being made on this project are really starting to push me away from the game. I thought Wario was already ridiculously good in 2.1 when pretty much nobody played him, and then he got mad buffed in 2.5. Once he got buffed, he seemed to see a lot more play and I thought people would see how stupid the character is but no, he gets buffed again in 2.6. What gave the PMBR the idea that these types of characters are acceptable?

 

[Strong Badam]

It's very clear your definition of "ridiculously good" is a complete outlier in comparison to the rest of the community. I feel Wario is around 6-8th on the tier list, and there is quite obviously nothing wrong with him being that good.

I seriously do not understand the term "autocombo," or why it seems to get thrown around all the time when Melee and thus Project M are both defined by deep and interesting combos. I am at all times interacting with my opponent, inputting attacks, aerial drift, L-cancels. There's nothing automatic about it, it's simply good. Wario's combo game is unique and diverse, and difficult to implement. No one else combos with Wario like I do, not even Reflex. I shouldn't need to mention that I am a top player in the MW, one of the hardest regions for this game.

 

[\Apples]

It's very clear your definition of "ridiculously good" is a complete outlier in comparison to the rest of the community. I feel Wario is around 6-8th on the tier list, and there is quite obviously nothing wrong with him being that good.

I seriously do not understand the term "autocombo," or why it seems to get thrown around all the time when Melee and thus Project M are both defined by deep and interesting combos. I am at all times interacting with my opponent, inputting attacks, aerial drift, L-cancels. There's nothing automatic about it, it's simply good. Wario's combo game is unique and diverse, and difficult to implement. No one else combos with Wario like I do, not even Reflex. I shouldn't need to mention that I am a top player in the MW, one of the hardest regions for this game.

Aside from the DACUS, nothing your Wario does in this video is foreign to mine. I've been doing this stuff and all along I feel that the character has been made stronger in the wrong ways, though it's to my great disadvantage on the boards that I possess no method of recording my characters. I'm glad my definition of good is an outlier to the rest of the community because most of the community doesn't seem to know what they're talking about.

I'd agree with your placement of him on the tier list for the moment, but if this game were to stay exactly as it is and continue unupdated, I would bet a lot of money that a lot of these characters such as Wario would skyrocket beyond their current projected tier list positions as the meta evolves. THAT is what concerns me that most of the community does not seem to see. Perhaps I'm crazy, but obviously I'm not convinced of that yet.

Also, I just use the term autocombo to refer to moves that too easily set up/lengthen combos.

 

[Strong Badam]

How do you quantify how well or easily a move sets up for/lengthens combos? At what point does a move "too easily" set up or lengthen combos? How do you determine, objectively, where that point is? These are questions that I have yet to see answered, and why the term "autocombo" needs to die in a fire.

 

[\Apples]

A difficult question to answer indeed. Objectivity is an impossible thing to achieve due to the perspective-nature of reality, so it would require us to agree upon an arbitrary definition. The point where the existence of too many moves which fit this "autocombo" description cause a warp in the game's metagame where it becomes a game where at top levels of play it matters more who your character is than how you play that character. Basically the point where players lose to characters and not other players. This is also an arbitrary point and basically a broken up version of determining what is over-powered or what the optimal strategy is in a competitive environment. Which is the point, the optimal strategy shouldn't be apparent across the vast array of characters in this metagame. Also an arbitrary condition, which concerns itself with how much power is given to a player versus how much they've been restricted. I believe the most preferable metagame environment is one which is balanced between the two but we all have different definitions of what that landscape looks like.

In other words, it's a gut feeling. Characters should feel more similar than they are different as a cast grows larger so that orthogonal unit differentiation doesn't spread the core mechanics thin across the multiplayer landscape.

That's the best I got for ya, if it has to come down to credentials... Well, we've played before I think, haven't we? I think you know I've been around the block but I just don't give myself much exposure. I moved out to Seattle and people know my Wario well around here, but Seattle is kind of detached from the rest of the Project: M community at the moment. A lot of players think a lot of stuff in this game is whack and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I know that you're a good player too and I respect that and your opinions on the game. I'm just worried about where it feels like its design is heading and want what's best for the game, just like anyone else. I think the best thing for the game is to not get crazy with adding different stuff in so liberally for fear crippling your community with analysis paralysis (I hope you're familiar with the term. Originates in board games, basically just means there's too much information for players to process regarding a game's metagame because they're given options for their options. AKA too much power.)

 

[Ace55]

I just love that they buffed (fully charged) waft. Because if there is one thing people I play have been complaining about it's that waft is just too darn weak

But seriously, I'm a little sad about the less spammable dsmash and less broken nair but otherwise I'm happy with his changes.

 

[\Apples]

Yeah, nair is a more realistic move now, I agree.