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Vs. Young Link Please comment!!! Update: 1 more match up!!!

Timotee

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
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Denver, CO
Wow you like your bat, doncha. I'd have to say less of that.

I'll give what advice I can vs. the other human child, but you may want to consider the description of your videos if you can't find a way around him. The bulk of my Y. link experience comes against an opponent I have a kind of mental block against, so I too find the fight hard as well.

You can't give the squirt much breathing room, because he'll use it to go into mobile ****** mode, running around like crazy, pulling out bombs and boomerangs and arrows and whatnot. It hurts, but if you can force him to stay in close combat and not just let him run around projectile whoring everywhere. Keep in mind that you can catch bombs and pk fire > boomerang, if you can't keep up. Stay on top of your DI, and Y link will have to work harder than you for kills, what with Ness having a good kill move selection. He shouldn't be trying to shield grab much, so fleeing after an aerial, just a foot or two, to get another swoop attack ready is a good idea. Dunno, from the video that's up, it seems like you could do some thunder juggles more, thanks to the platforms. I love them so.

Moral: Keep pressure on the little pantsless jerk.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
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I discovered the pk fire > boomerang midmatch. I never would have thought about catching his bombs, but that's what I do with Peach's turnips. I'll try that. I'm trying to use less bat. Did I improve at all since my last videos?

BTW: Thunder Juggle/ all the other pkt mindgames I have, doesn't work against this guy since I play him every day. I have trouble with his young link since it's his newest character (he gets new ones every day...)
 

Timotee

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
302
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Alrighty, just watched the second vid, that's some nice stuff.

From a technical standpoint, JC grabs, DI, and less rolling are the main things that need work, but I'm sure you know better than I what you're working on. I'm horrible at DI so I have no room to talk there.

For advice, hmmm. It seemed to me that you were spending too much time floating in the middle of the stage in the air, which can be dangerous once he learns to get under you and just start utilts and uairs. Just a warning for what to expect if he sticks with Y link. Great work shieldgrabbing. Might consider mixing some grabs up with the dash attacks, but it looked like you had some success dash attacking through him and then grabbing, which is awesomes.

You've definitely improved a lot since the last vids, just keep at it!
 

Livevil200

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
31
Main suggestions. While watching the first video. I have this same problem, but on your first death (or before it when you get knocked around Battle Field) your using Pkthunder2 too much to get back. AFter the first time it was necessary and dhe hits you with an arrow that gets you closer to the stage, but after that you try to use it again...stupid move there.

What you should have done was wobbled out of the spin (where you tap left right left right to get out of the spinning animation) and then quickly air dodged onto the stage.

Watching the first video this again hapens during your second death..you could have avoided all of that pain by jsut an air dodge early on. To practice this face a good marth and you'll learn how to air dodge onto the stage VERY quickly.

Second is your approach. If he projectile spams you, dont pkfire him and shield. Taht does nothing. It just delays the inevitable arrow that will hit you. Your better off TAking to the skies and getting closer until your close enough maybe to foot cancel or something.

Thirdly: DONT full jump pk fire when there are better options. Its a good move now and then but for a real approach all it takes your opponent to dodge it is to dash...in ANY direction. Its not a quick projectile, it takes a lto of start up time and you face horrible lag afterwards.

Fourthly: Fair more.

I know you do it a lot already but you also try to go for less smart options. You JC grab (and sometimes miss the JC) a few times, but teh approach leading up to it is bad....cause you dont wave dash. Nor do you dash dance enough. You just rolling and htats teh extent of your mind game when it comes to approach. Fair spamming might seem bad cause its predictable but think of it this way: Young link's moves cannot out range it so you might as well.

Fifthly:
Bat less
Batting is good, but in my opinion, use it mainly for edgeguarding. Or as an approach if you Crouch Cancel it, but that is rarely. Use your ftilt instead, espcially when young link is at high percentages since the ftilt has enough power to send your opponent off the stage, at which point you can edge guard. Against young link once he's off the edge it might be a good idea to either jump off and fair him again, OR pk thunder him in the back as it might force him to up B earlier instead of grappling/sweet spotting.

Replace your bats with forward tilts, or SHFFLed nairs. DJC nair as an approach IF and ONLY IF you can get horizontal movement while d oing it (this took me forever to learn how to do but after you told me about going from X->Y-> A i was able to do it). It is possible to DJC a nair and actually get horizontal movement iwth it. But until you learn that, go with Shffled nairs.

Also when you come out of your start up invincibility after you die, you might be tempted to do a powerful move to just finish off your opponent, but please. The BAT is just TOO predictable. Only do it out of a wavedash (so its less predictable), but if your opponent is so close to dieing, and you have invincibility, your better off going for a grab or shffled nair.

Sixthly: Your approach needs work. I only dash attack if i have more room and secondly, i always try to aim my dash attack so its the last spark that hits since that gives enough space where they cant shield grab you and its the last spark that sends them up for combos. Watch in the begginning of video 2 (round 1 part 2). A JC grab would have benefitted you more.
This actually happens Twice right in the beggnning of the video of part 2 round 1.

as i continue to watch your video this point becomes moreso apparent to me. You simply dash attack WAY too much when you could JC grab, or even fair. To point a single example go to round 1 part 2 video and go to 1:35. You'll see what im talking about.


You NEED to pulse walk. You need to wave dash more. You need to wavedash into a bat sometimes if your going to bat at all in your game, and you need to full jump pkfire LESS.
Wave dash more in your approach (wave dash back, then forward then dash forward then waveddash back. Those are the kinda things you want) and you'll mindgame your opponent more. Maybe you dash forward and wave dash back and they do an atack or grab. This allows you to wave dash forward into a bat.
Seventh: Edgeguarding

Your edgeguarding is pretty good. I LOVED the flash. It was well thought of and with Young link's recovery and hte difficulty in sweetspotting it, its almost too perfect to use. Also your batting as an edgeguard is good as is your fair off the stage. My only other suggestion wouldbe learn how to implement Ledge hop edgeguarding. One of my favorits is to ledge hop into a bair, although the difficulty is accidentally doing it too low and because of DJC your too low to recover back. In general your edge guard game is very smart. The only problem you have is that your spacing is bad. Just practice on how to space your off the edge fairs and stuff, and you'll do better. Also, you need to learn how to distinguish when to use a ftilt or a bat.

Oh, another note. I Know i told you pkflash is good, especically against younglink, but thats only in levels where he cant hookshot easily. Dreamland 64 he'll just hook shot if he sees it coming and he'll wait. Better for you to pk thunder him first (either in the back or try to tail whip him) and then fair. If he's going for the hook shot i tend to find going off the level into nair is a good idea as long as you can double jump after wards and pkthunder back to the stage.

Sorry im doing this in a long point by point basis but im making the points as i watch the video

Okay, theres my explanation. Your biggest weakness is your predictability, spacing, and some moves you dont need to do.

I know i pointed out a lot of things your doing wrong but you did a lot right as well, so dont feel bad. But you have a lot of space to improve which is good. Overall, a decent ness that still can grow a lot. DJC more is my big suggestion. Its especially effective against low tier characters like young link. And short hop more for that matter. ACtually, overall, you NEED to be in the air more. Ness's ground game is only okay, and i personally only use it against people like Cfalcon, because c falcon is in the air so much that its just easier to try and wave dash towards him so he misses his aerieals and to bat where he's going to land. You play like i used to play Ness come a few months ago. All you need now is to get rid of bad habits like spamming the bat and dash attack, and learning the small intricate stuff and incorporating it into your game play like wave dashing more (in an effective manner, i already know you can wave dash) and dash dancing among other things.

Hope this helped.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
BTW, this is my new Sn. This is Livevil200. I just figured since my smasher name will be The_NZA (inspired by the Rza and the Gza), i might as well change my name to it. I like it because its what Ness sounds like when you scratch it (as in when you scratch the record in hip hop) as well as its what my name sounds like when you scratch it, which also allegedly starts with N.
 

Wave⁂

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
11,870
I see that you roll a lot. Not that that is a problem. You missed quite a few grabs in some of your matches.

More later, gotta go.

another thing against ylinks: choose bigger stages. his boomerang has to much range with it's many angles. when a ylink is charging and arrow, simply jump toward him, or just jump.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
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OOOOOOOOO!!! Vs. Falco vids.

Yeah, I pretty much got owned. Keep in mind that Falco player had much more experience then I do, and as much as I tried, I couldn't pull off mofo's combo.... He kept DI'ing... I made a couple of mistakes edgeguarding, but what can I do? I'm still learning a lot and incorporating stuff. I might pick up Fox for a month so I improve my tech skill.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,979
Okay, here comes my point by point based critique which ill make as i watch the video.

1. Still, too much shielding, and the pkthunder at the beginning was a bad idea. Pk thunder against falco, and all he has to do is fast fall. A smarter move would have been to wait, and just utilt as falcos will generally dair right in the beginning if their above you.

2. Your still rolling way too much. You NEED to learn how to wave dash more comfortably and dash dancing.

3. JC all of your grabs. Your grab stumbling way too much.

4. There are points right in teh first minute where you land a fair and then you go to a dash attack. This would be good against some enemies but never against a falco or fox. Keep in mind that your dash combos dont work as well on these two as they are so heavy. And also remember how deadly your grab is. You know that grabbing is important but based on the first minute of the first video, your just grabbing at the wrong times.

5. At about 1 minute in (round 1 part 1 falco) you tried to pkthunder 2 onto the stage. Your lucky the falco didn't punish you cause that move could have cost you that stock. Think of it this wya, you wouldn't have landed the pkthunder 2 on him and all you would have received was unneccessary lag, which would have allowed your opponent to do a dair shine combo to your death. Its a horrible habit that i also used to have with ness, where i wanted to pkthunder2 back on the stage all the time. Its a result of habit, as well as playing too many newbs who get hit by the pkthunder 2 which lends you as a player to rely on it even when its a bad decision.

Oh yeah, this happens again at the end of the the round 1 part 1 falco vid, cause you get knocked closer to the stage. You dont need to pkthunder2 there, what you can do is wobble (press left right left right on the analog stick) which gets you out of the falling/spinning animation, and then air dodge onto the stage.

6. Just a rule of thumb against falco: After hes above 80% your better off nuetral airing than up airing simply beccause its faster, has a wider hit box, and has a horizontal trajectory which makes it easier to kill falco, cuase his recovery sucks.

7. Falco Short hop lazers and is always in the air. AGaisnt aerial opponents the dash attack is relatively useless. Your better off DJCing or SHFFLing fairs. Its hard though...finding hte balance and being able to get air bound without getting hit by lazers. My other suggestion is practice your tilts. If hes not letting you get air bound try to wave dash up to him and ftilt it, but aim it upward. I never realzied it, but aiming the ftilt can be EXTREMELY useful against shorthoppers.

8. You dont need to bat on the edge against falco when hes at a high percent. When your edgeguarding, think of the most accurate way in which you can hit your opponent away from the edge with just enough power so they cant get back. Lets take these factors into consideration.

a. Falco at a high percentage means relatively weak hits will knock him far
b. Falco's recovery sucks as far as distance goes
c. FAlco's recovery gives him a lot of choices at which where to land and at what angles to land.

The bat is least suitable if falco is at a high percentage simply because when you bat your grounded to one spot, and its relatively slow coming out. A much mroe useful approach would be a Short hopped or DJC'd nair since the nair is quick, powerful, and with a hop can cover a large distance.

For reference at which point im talking about where you use a bat when you dont need to look at 2:00 in round 1

9. The reason your mofo combos aren't working is cause your DJC is too slow and your not goetting enough horizontal movement in your DJC. This can be rectified. Simply Dash before you DJC (uthrow, dash in the desired direction, and THEN DJC), and to make up for hte lost air time by the dash, go from X->Y->A. Sage, you suggested this to me and it works WONDERFULLY. I know it takes time to get used to but once you have it down, it helps immensely. ESPECIALLY against falco's and foxes because it allows you to do a headbutt so quick you dont even need to set them up in a grab. You can just hit them when they approach you with a shorthop.

10. 22 seconds in on part 2 round 1 falco, word of advice

Using ness's pk thunder 2 as a weapon is like using fox's firefox as a weapon: Use it rarely, sparingly, and only as a mindgame where it will work (almost never).

*Proceeds towatch round 2*
1. Okay, good pressure on that platform, Theres a point (40 seconds in) where you dash attack when you should grab. I see this happen a lot with you. You seem to spam dash attack when there are times when your close and you should just grab. Also, against falco, your better off SHfairing or DJC fairing rather than dash attacking. For that matter, you need to SH nair more as well. It as well as your ftilt (and bair) are going to be your number one horizontal killers, and thats exactly what you need against a falco. Oh, and dont absorb his lasers...the only time thats a good thing to do is right in the beginning of the match cause tahts when falcos camp and try to get damage on you, or if your opponent is just far away SHLing you to rack up extra damage.

2. Once again, too much Bat. Bat is good, but only in wide areas, and when the spacing requires close quarters but not TOO close quarters. The fact is if your close enough to bat at point blank range (i.e. at 48 seconds) then you might as well grab.

3. HAH! Props for landing that bat at the end. That was so rediculous.

Overall good Ness but you have to use more mindgames. Watch these videos back but this time pay attention to the falco. You'll notice he's WDing back and forth and all kinds of things. Meanwhile your approach is at best predictable. Still though, better than most Ness's ive seen. You could just use a little more work.

Hope i helped again.
 

thesage

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Thanks NZA! I'm trying my hardest to incorporate everything you say, but it's just too much! I wish this was at the beginning of my break so that I had time to practice. Now I have to do homework things... I'll try my hardest though. BTW in match three I got *****.

I'm putting up Round 3 now so I'm going to experience major lag on my computer. I won't be able to post for about 1.5 to 2 hours...

Edit 2: NZA, you have to credit Mow for that XYA djc suggestion. He's the one that told me. Suprisingly enough, the way you DjC is very important, but it's hardly ever talked about here...
 

Timotee

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
302
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Denver, CO
I too heart the jungle japes.

NZA's got good points. You DjC too slow for good space animal combos, and rolling as a main form of transportation is a painfully bad idea. I know it's a tough habit to break, but if you're not in a tourney, try playing matches where you don't roll at all, just to try to get used to reducing rolls.

If Falco is able to do something, don't try to outprioritize him from below, you know this! Invincible legs = pain. Also, be warned about sweetspotting against Falco when you're too far for invincibility frames to save you, because ledgehopped dairs are death.

Almost every approach from a distance by you was grab or dash attack, and the grab usually came too early. I know grabs can change the flow of a battle, but use them wisely. Personally, I love pk fire in this match, and will use it a ton for edgeguard purposes. Falco is going to use phantasm if he isn't below the edge 90% of the time, so try planning around that. If you're wrong, firebird takes enough time to shield or prepare a new offensive against.

Also, he seems to know that you start battles like that with pk thunder. Try being ready with a DjC attack next match where you're in those positions instead. Overall, good work, keep practicing this match, it's probably the most common one anymore.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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While pkfire is flashy, its compleeeeeetely unnecessary and risky whe na nuetral air or a ftilt is usally a better option for edgeguarding the phantasm. Also yeah...you need to learn how to JC grab. Do you know how to? If not dont bet afraid to ask, and dont be afraid to ask about anything i stated if you dont understand =). The key to suceed with ness is all about not being predictable, and only being predictable with moves taht are GREAT (i.e. fair).
 

thesage

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I know how to. I got a new controller and the timing for it is a little different so I'm still getting used to it. I'll try to be less predictable.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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it will help your game a lot. Yeah, the comments i wrote are pretty mcuh all you need. Be usre to post your next vid that you do, i'd be more than happy to watch it and id love to see how much you improve.
 

thesage

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Won't be for a while. I had spring break, so that's why I have so many vids right now. Mabye next weekend if I go to C3...
 

The_NZA

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yeah, school is a *****. All i can suggest is practice your DJC when your alone now and then. And your wavedash. Practice wavedash back to front.
 

thesage

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I added another match. This was taken the same day as the rest so don't worry that I didn't improve or anything.
 

thesage

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How about you just come to pound 2. It'll be the biggest tourney ever!!!! I'll never ever go to MA unforetunately, way to far away for me...

Advertisement: Everybody come to Pound 2!!! It'll be HUGE!!! We need Ness representation *glares at Simna*.

@ NZA: try to find a ride or something. I'm sure people from MA are coming (some are coming from Maine and NY).
 

The_NZA

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Another long listed point by point post

=) You know, the kind you like.

First off, just looking at the first 10 seconds, this is your strongest match. Maybe its the stage, but your playing much smarter here than the other one.

1. Off the top the first thing i notice is still too much dash attack. You could easily JC grab which you ALWAYS want to go for if you KNOW you can pull it off (which you can if your that close). On falco thats at least a 40% combo if you practice your DJC.

2. Besides the not enough dash attack, i notice your not grabbing when you should. Theres a time 6 seconds in after the pillar you go for hte fair and right afterwards you should have shield grabbed. It would have wokred. This is a wierd time to do it against most charcters but for this particular timing it always will work against falco.

3. On your first edgeguard, well done. Although one thing, the bat is hard to time/aim at that angle although a good attempt none theless. My personal suggestion is if the falco is under you, just go for the dair meteor spike. Unless your opponent is good at teching or meteor cancelling (which against a falco still isn't THAT good) then the kill is yours.

4. Too much full hops. Against falco you always want to play it in the air but close to the ground. Try doing backwards short hopped fairs (with hte cstick). Also the one thing i notice is when you have a chance to follow up an attack, a lot of the time you dont because you stall. You NEED to learn the combo potential for ness or you wont be able to kill good falcos and foxes.

5. At 50 seconds. While i would suggest the bat versus a shiek, jsut a general note: Falcos dont go for the major offensive from the edge like shieks. They'll avoid the bat easy with the ledge hop. Go for the shorthopped fair. Remember, against falco your not going for the strongest moves. Your going for the moves which cover the most amount of area and have the most likelyhood to cause enough knockback to send the falco away so you can edgehog. Fair will cover more bases: Aerial and ground. Once he's off the level, he's pretty much dead meat.

6. At 1 minute, good job recovering. Try learning how to airdodge closer to the ground.

7. 1:27...pk flash is not a good edgegaurding option agianst falco cause of his speed. The general idea for falco is if hes far enough to be pkflashed intime, hes far enough to be edgehogged.

also ill attribute your air dodge when you meant to edgeguard as a mistake.

8. Just some mindgames...
at 2:23 you kinda knew he was going to shield. If he gives you indication that hes gong to shield, instead go for the Footcancelled dair and just grab without any lag.

9. for hte last 30 seconds its like your completely being led along...wayyyyyy too predictable. I noticed that you dont dash dance...thats hurting you a lot, cause it means you have no counter to falco's approach. Dont do what you did in the last 30 seconds. If you dash attack more than 2 times in a row...its BAD.

10. The video ended early. =(.

SO basically, in the beginning you played GREAT. In the End...not so much. But good job, much better than your last one.
 
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