Vs. Sonic

[BTVolta]

Hey I'm heading to paragon this weekend and I have a sonic in my pool ,so I need some matchup advice with the psychic boy himself.

 

[Noa.]

I see that you have Streetshark in your pool. He's a very good player. Last Saturday I played him in tournament. Here's the set:

http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/609592217?t=20m21s

I lost that set 3-1. You can use the videos to study what happened though, and prepare yourself for him. Streetshark is a very good player. :V Obviously I haven't figured out how to beat him. I do play with him a lot though so he has a lot of Ness experience.

It's likely that Streetshark will get first seed in his pool, unless someone upsets him. And that could be you!

You have three other good players that I recognize in your pool. Toolbag mains Bowser Jr and Jiggs. Apple mains Falcon last I heard. And Kosher Cody will play either Sheik or Pit. Those three players will all be fighting to get second seed.

I've never heard of the other players in your pools. It's likely that none of them are going to make the top 2 seeds to advance. But don't underestimate anyone!

 

[BTVolta]

Thanks man. I've been studying my opponents like mad and know almost all the possible characters I'll see in pools and I'm only scared of the sonic, rosa, and sheik .

 

[Noa.]

Do not underestimate Apple, Toolbag, or cody, as they are all great players.

I've played a lot with both Streetshark and Cody. They both know the Ness matchup quite well.

I would guess that between those four players I know, Streetshark is getting the first seed, and it's most likely that Cody will get the second seed. Toolbag and Apple have a chance at beating Cody but we'll see.

 

[BTVolta]

I'm not underestimating them, I just feel confident I'll do well (except Cody, the Sheik) since those are pretty ok match ups and I do have secondaries to try and cover me if my Ness isn't good enough, but I'm going to hope to get the right experience at my weeklies to really prepare since it's a pretty diverse meta here.

On topic with sonic: Is there a way to challenge spindash? DA and even Fair seem too risky. I'm feeling FH Nair might be the safest option next to just shielding, but I'd like a something more offensive.

 

[Noa.]

Even jab and dtilt beat spin dash. It has quite low priority. You can even grab through it. But the timing is very tight. The problem with beating spin dash is not the power of the move you're ysing, but the timing. You have to land your aerial quite well if you want to beat it.

There are two smash 4 tournaments before paragon Thai Saturday. There is one on Tuesday and another on Thursday. They're in the ucf area. Idk how far you are from ucf but you should go to them to get some practice.

 

[Uffe]

Ness' aerials should be able to beat Sonic's spin attacks on both ground and in air. Nair > nair is useful against roller, so just pay attention to where he's going. His spin isn't a roll per se, but again, if your aerials trump his spins and he's moving left and right, then it's there if you need it. If you manage to land PKF on Sonic, don't go for a grab, because he'll just jump out of it. Just use fair or PKT. Sonic's f-smash, fair, bair, and uair are good for killing, as well as his f-throw and b-throw at higher percents. His d-smash might be able to kill as well, I haven't really seen any using that. Don't let your PKT linger away from you. Kind of keep it in the distance in case he tries coming for you when you're unable to move yourself. Be sure you don't accidentally SD, though. I think Sonic is also a light character, so uair, nair, bair, PKT2, PKFl, and your back throw are there at your disposal.

If you're off the stage, he'll try to gimp you with his spring. You may want to air dodge this. He might even stay near the edge of the stage to smash you out when you're coming back with PKT2. You could try to delay your recovery, but try to keep your second jump if you can. If he's away from the edge while you're coming to recover, he'll probably attempt to use an f-smash. If he's near the edge, well, be prepared for the worst. Try not to worry so much about the Sonic you're going up against, because you're already setting yourself up for failure by doing so.

 

[BTVolta]

Thanks for the advice.
How should I go about the neutral?

 

[Uffe]

Thanks for the advice.
How should I go about the neutral?

If you're asking about the nair > nair part, basically like this. It's a Brawl video, but the same method applies.

EDIT: I thought it was in this. You go in with a neutal air and pull back, allowing you to space yourself in case someone blocks. Of course if you use neutral air and your opponent decides to roll behind you, you can fall back on them with the second neutral air.

 

[Mysteltainn]

I see a lot of people on many different character boards being fearful of his Spin Dash shenanigans, but I honestly don't see what all the hype is about... I personally think that move is total moot, as it has almost as bad priority as a Gordo. Mind you, it hurts when it hits and he does the combo, but he's seriously going to have problems doing that against people who know when to jab, tilt or worse, grab him out of it. N-Airs will probably do well against it, but may be risky if you miss and he comes back around from behind.

The real problem from a good Sonic would probably be his annoying Spring guarding off-stage when trying to recover low like Uffe pointed out, as well as his F-Smash guarding when trying to recover neutral. As Uffe pointed out, without Ness' 2nd jump, it will be hard to avoid all of this. Depending on the stage, it may be wise to take advantage of the double PKT if you are good with it and his spring gets you too low, but if that's not an option (depends on the stage) then air-dodging will probably be best.

All in all, if you play it safe, you should be fine. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm personally much more afraid of a Sheik or Rosalina than Sonic.

Best of luck, and have fun

 

[BTVolta]

If you're asking about the nair > nair part, basically like this. It's a Brawl video, but the same method applies.

EDIT: I thought it was in this. You go in with a neutal air and pull back, allowing you to space yourself in case someone blocks. Of course if you use neutral air and your opponent decides to roll behind you, you can fall back on them with the second neutral air.

I meant the neutral game.

 

[Uffe]

I meant the neutral game.

Kind of vague there. What do you mean and who are you asking about?

 

[BTVolta]

What are some of my best options in the neutral position and what should I watch out for? Do I just space with SH nair and fair and try to fish for grabs?

 

[PKBeam]

sonic's close range options aren't that great. all your B&B classic moves will work on him.

 

[Uffe]

What are some of my best options in the neutral position and what should I watch out for? Do I just space with SH nair and fair and try to fish for grabs?

Fair, nair, and bair beat Sonic's Spin Dash, whether on the ground or air. His uair should also be useful, but I'd only go for it as a kill move, or if you can grab > d-throw > fair > uair, go for that. It most likely won't work later on. I would say that a good Sonic will bait you by just Spin Dashing and sitting in one position to see your reaction before moving in. I'd probably go in the fight with a dash to shield to be safe. Grabbing Sonic can be kind of difficult due to his speed. If you can grab him, then you may be able to kill him early on since he's light. You should watch out for his f-smash, fair, bair, and back throw. Those tend to kill. I usually get up onto the stage rather than rolling because it requires lesser frames, but if Sonic is near, you'll get f-smashed. He'll try to use his Spring to gimp you.

 

[TheEnderFriend]

Fair, nair, and bair
-snip-

I think he meant neutral ground game, like jabs and tilts.

 

[Uffe]

I think he meant neutral ground game, like jabs and tilts.

He was kind of being vague.

 

[PKBeam]

Don't use your ground game on Sonic, besides grabs, dash attack smashes. If you want, I think Fsmash will cleanly beat his Spin Dash crap, but FH Bair OoS will kill him for it anyway.

Oh yeah, if he tries to go for the Jump -> Up-B -> Dair autocancel stuff, he can't do anything until he touches the ground and his Dair is nowhere as powerful as, say, Link's, so you're free to grab, PKF, Dash attack, Nair, even Fsmash.

 

[Uffe]

 

[o.o]

Based on the video Uffe posted, do you guys find yourself playing like the video? It was constant short/full hop fast fall - nair, fair, and just throwing in pk fires and pk thunders here and there. And he didn't chase off stage much, just stuck with PK thunders.

Do you just play like this against sonic? Or is this play style pretty standard against all characters?

 

[Earthbound360]

It's a little of both. There's nothing wrong with playing a SH based Ness with aerials, but we refrain from using grabs in this matchup more because of how slippery Sonic is. We also try not to edgeguard too deep because of his great ability to gimp us.

 

[Waael]

How are you guys feeling about custom spindash spam Sonic? Its the most annoying matchup because I have to play lame and camp. This Sonic player realized that and he started camping too, as he switched to defensive I had no idea what to do.

 

[Earthbound360]

I feel like customs Sonic is a 7:3 -_-

 

[Kodystri]

How are you guys feeling about custom spindash spam Sonic? Its the most annoying matchup because I have to play lame and camp. This Sonic player realized that and he started camping too, as he switched to defensive I had no idea what to do.

Which Spin Dash? The one that goes up high? I have no idea how to deal with that, even with my Sonic counter, Gunner.

 

[Waael]

Which Spin Dash? The one that goes up high? I have no idea how to deal with that, even with my Sonic counter, Gunner.

Its the Spin Dash that is twice as faster than his normal one, and that it grounds you as well.

 

[carnerd3000]

I've never faced a Sonic with Ness yet, but I can't imagine it being terribly difficult.

 

[Kodystri]

I've never faced a Sonic with Ness yet, but I can't imagine it being terribly difficult.

It is difficult sadly, but its not unwinnable.

 

[epic11]

I noticed that if you try to pressure sonic he is slowly going to lose his pace. I know its almost impossible to pressure sonic with ness but you shouldn't wait for him to approach under any circumstances. Just make sure you have stage control and try to counter his side b with nair/fair/bair.

 

[Kodystri]

I noticed that if you try to pressure sonic he is slowly going to lose his pace. I know its almost impossible to pressure sonic with ness but you shouldn't wait for him to approach under any circumstances. Just make sure you have stage control and try to counter his side b with nair/fair/bair.

Actually approaching him is not a good idea with Ness. And countering side b is easier said than done. However once Ness is in Sonics face, it isnt too bad.

 

[Earthbound360]

What's wrong with approaching Sonic? I'd rather approach him than let him fake you out with spin dash mindgames endlessly until you whiff an attack and get punished with a spin dash combo for 30%. He's not that scary up close.

And countering spin dash requires some timing, but SH nair easily beats it.

 

[Kodystri]

One missed time SH nair gives you 30% compared to 11% you deal.

 

[Earthbound360]

The damage is indeed skewed in Sonic's favor, that's why it's a bad matchup, but it's not like you have much other choice. If you wanna just shield and let him go, you're not accomplishing much and giving him the space he wants.

 

[Kodystri]

We can punish him when he is in the air. Sure he can Spring jump to dair, but we can punish that pretty well as long as we do not get hit by the spring. Also, Sonic hates being offstage against us.

 

[Earthbound360]

I wouldn't say he hates being off stage with us. His UpB is very fast and has a lot of invulnerability frames. He can go very deep with it because of it's great vertical height. Also, good Sonics know that they can turn the tables on Ness' edgeguard easily due to his gimpabililty. Sonic's recovery overall is pretty darn solid.

 

[Kodystri]

True, not going to deny he has invulnerability frames in his Up-B. First of all, a well timed Fair or Nair will stage spike Sonic on certain stages(Smashville, Battlfield, Town and City) if Sonic recovers low. Even if it does not stage spike, it still does that damage you need vs Sonic and again puts him out there. Sonic's Recovery is quite predictable as well. If you you see him charging the Spin Shot(Basically Spin Dash Down B and then using jump at the same time which allows a great horizontal distance), you can punish it with a Uair or stop it all together with PK Thunder. Basically, you want to stop him before he up bs. Yes, at the same time, we do not want to be caught off stage because that spring can gimp us. There are some things that we need to watch out for and it is risky to go out there vs Sonic, but we can still be a pain to get back on the stage against like majority of the cast.

 

[Earthbound360]

His recovery isn't all that predictable. He can spin boost, do a regular sideB spin dash and jump out of it, recover low and upB, and in some cases even use homing attack. With this many options to recover, it's pretty hard to punish him off stage unless he's being incredibly predictable.

 

[Kodystri]

Sorry, I didn't mean to say it was be predictable. Ness has all the tools to punish all of them though. If he is low, he is going to use Up-B. You mainly have to watch out for when he is above the stage on the side. He has a lot of options there and PK Thunder covers all but Up-B. If he is too high, nothing you can really do about it.

 

[anas abou]

i really feel like sonic rely's on fear more that anything else!!!!!
the idea of fighting a super fast character bring a lot of stress into the opponents psychy but it can get frustrating with his all out tactics and combo's at **** but if you get your **** together and calm the **** down he is an easy foe

 

[o.o]

First thing to do is play with sonic enough yourself so you can determine which move is coming at you since a lot of his attacks look and perform similarly. You know he has to get in your space so from there its just reading the attacks, figuring out the opponents play style and spot dodging, shielding, rolling etc at the right time.
I do find myself having difficulty with sonic punishing my landings though. Checked out the Sonic player's forum and noted many of those who main Sonic say to keep out from under Ness.. so I've just been staying grounded a lot