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vs sheik

Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
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203
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i think this is marths worst matchup i was wondering if people can share tips and strats. i am wondering of the best stage counter. i find that in neutral, they can sh fairs and instant Ftilt and win a lot of exchanges, at edge they can down smash a lot of stuff, as well as chain grab combos anywhere else, and slap kill at high% from throw.

i didn't know that sheik can DI out of an upthrow >uptilt follow up at 10% stopping me from getting a juggle combo going and that is why i feel stuck with the matchup as well. does anyone have pointers to make, is fthrow better than upthrow, does anyone know combo's at early/mid/late stock vs her or reliable kill setups, when is it a safe time to shield, how to di chaingrabs or particular combos etc. her attacks come out very fast. thanks
 
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NSunderdog

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 24, 2014
Messages
13
the main thing i find is being under sheik is your best shot at the w. what makes it hard is its the same for sheik only she has better launcher options and needles to get in your way. i find playing the neutral almost like the ditto (lots of d-tilt, dash dance, wave dash back and grabs) and not to be afraid of the up b at the ledge. try to get stray hits. falling up air is a nice option just space properly and get the l-cancel to avoid the shield grab
 
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Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
203
Location
905
right, zoning fairs is pretty good i forgot. stay under her is definitely legit i will remember that specifically next time. i definetly get hit by the up+b at ledge at times. it can be difficult to edgehog it safely when i'm at high% and have slow get-ups. what do you mean by stray hits
 

A_Reverie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
175
I disagree that Sheik is Marth's worst (I think that honor goes to Falcon) but I'll still throw in my two cents. You have to beat Sheik with movement. Marth's movement is a million times better thanks to his awesome dash and wavedash. This gives you an edge in your ground game that you should seek to maximize in order to earn you big punishes, which can be labbed out on your own.

With proper spacing, the biggest threats you face on the ground are dash attack (also boost grab), needles, D-tilt and F-tilt. Sheik's dash attack can be crouch canceled up to 65%, and both the attack and boost grab can be beaten out with a well spaced D-tilt or even a retreating F-air if you find yourself unable to do that. Basically you want to remain at a range where those can't immediately threaten you, but can still be baited in order to punish. Needle defense should already be on your mind. Block grounded needles or swat them away with a quick move. If you see Sheik jumping for aerial needles, meet her in the air with your own move. Going after Sheik on the ground when she does quick aerial needles can get you grabbed. If you do find yourself in range and have to shield the needles then be ready to buffer a spotdodge/roll because she has no lag upon landing and it is VERY safe on shield. Even more so with charged needles.

Everything else requires her to commit to an animation or jump, both of which lose to a grounded, well-spaced Marth. Resist the urge to punish Sheik landing with an aerial or needles, as they both have little to no lag. Instead, watch for which action they select after they land and contest that. It will probably be a D-tilt you punish them with. Bully them until they open themselves up for a grab, which is when it's time to get Sheik above you and rack up damage with juggles. Consult @Kadano's lovely thread for up throw followups on Sheik.

I think the most common mistake low to mid-level Marths make (in the Sheik matchup especially) is thinking they can just jump whenever they want and F-air will keep them safe. You have to keep in mind that F-air is only active for 4 frames (4-7), after which it cannot be interrupted until frame 30. When landing with F-air after hitting a shield your choices are D-tilt (frame 7), spotdodge/roll (reactable) or dash away (gives your back). All of these factors combined make Marth's jumps a commitment compared to other characters and Sheik has tools that let her destroy a Marth that chooses to jump at the wrong time. Her low crouch makes it harder for aerials to land, her F-tilt comes out super fast and getting hit with just one can mean lots of damage. She can sneak under you with a dash attack and hit your legs to start a mean combo.

Regarding low % throws, if you find yourself earning a grab before you reach the window for a guaranteed up tilt (unless there's a platform above you) just throw her forward or down. You can easily tech chase and get a D-tilt, which should get you to the right range. Just make sure you practice the guaranteed follow-ups in Kadano's thread so you can maximize every punish you do get.

EDIT: I'll write another post later today regarding DI and stage stuff. Stay tuned.
 
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Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 4, 2007
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where is kadano's thread? i agree for the most part although i'd still be willing to bet sheik is a worse match up than falcon on paper. on falcon you actually have combos like uptilt which carry into themselves forever, into tipper fsmash, or upthrow into fsmash later%, you can techchase him and platform combos/juggle him, edgeguarding him is not as difficult as sheik, he has no projectile, sheik has needles, you can stuff his approaches, you can play a % game with him like he does with you..... among potentially other things. falcon is 50/50 to me. i'd call vs sheik 49/51 and marths worst matchup in my experience although, it is not by a lot of course and doesn't mean much. playing vs sheik i think is distinct from all other matchups.

the problem i was having was sheik following up sh slaps into instant ftilt, not being able to follow up on upthrows with attacks, and finding myself juggled out/zoned with an inability to regain neutral/space, sheik mashing dsmash at the edge on my get up, needles from far etc. but the biggest was getting an upthrow and not understanding why uptilt wasn't ever connecting. i can imagine i was even winning neutral into an upthrow at later %, and then definetly not following up due to her going to far. i have always been in the understanding that sheik at 10% connected uptilts and always started combos from that . but i played a sheik who DI'd out, and i was stumped i guess. if she second hops out, i have to use up my second jump to follow up, and from that i can't keep a combo without descending, but i guess i'm not use to pushing her out with fairs from a throw and i could incorperate that

i also often get burned by the up+b, i have no idea how to edgeguard that like i do other characters, when i get chaingrabbed and combo'd i do not know where to di.

i have my own regimen for sheik in my match-up notes, it just was not working my most recent set with a sheik. they were avoiding my combos in ways i haven't dealt with or could figure out how to deal with
 
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A_Reverie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
175
Barbeque Barbeque

A few resources
Kadano's thread - Tons of good info here. Learn it at your own pace.
MIOM - Neighborhood P's Guide to Marth/Sheik - Worth a read

Up Throw On Sheik
From Kadano's thread:
Upthrow takes 40 frames against her.
0-8% – 2-3 frame window for Sheik’s jump escape timing (cannot be buffered)
12% – 2 frame window
13% – 1 frame window
17% – 2 frame window
21% – 1 frame window
22-30% – utilt is guaranteed, you need to turn if she DIs behind you
35-41% – utilt is guaranteed on neutral DI only, otherwise it will whiff.
32-45% – If she DIs behind you, tipper fsmash will miss just barely (she needs to hit a one frame window for the jump to avoid it). If she DIs behind you or in front of you, short hop fair will tipper her if done frame perfect (dash 1 frame, jump for one frame, then input the fair).
29-57% – On neutral DI, short hop uair will always hit her.
50-70% – On neutral DI, full jump uair will always connect, you need to delay the uair by one frame every 6% or so.
70-86% – On neutral DI, full jump → second jump uair will always connect.
As you can see, up throw to up tilt will combo from 22% to possibly 41% dependent on DI. Think of this as your first window and memorize it. Your second window, from 32% to 45% (I've gotten it to work up to 54/55) the instant dash-jump rising F-air will combo if she DIs to either side of you, and if she does neutral DI the short up U-air will work until 70%. Use this to start your juggles. This is the meat of your punish game off of grabs so it just be practiced until you're consistent with it so you can build up damage on Sheik.

Juggling Tips
Juggling is tricky but Sheik lacks tools compared to others when it comes to returning to the ground vs. Marth. Like any other situation in Melee, you want to have a gameplan when you transition to a juggling phase so that you can maximize your damage, minimize their ability to recover, and most of all make it more likely that you'll take the stock. Marth, in my opinion, is a control-assassin type character that can convert huge punishes or stocks off of a single good up throw with the correct gameplan.

Upon beginning a juggle, take note of whether or not they have their jump. Sheik's mid-air jump is really good, so you want to pressure her into using, but not in a way that you can't follow up on. A good rule-of-thumb is to never full hop to try and catch a falling Sheik unless you know for sure you can combo with it. This means at higher percents after connecting with U-air, use a series of empty short hops and swings to mix-up and fake-out the Sheik to trap them into landing into your sword. Your most viable moves in that regard are U-air, U-tilt and finally F-air. The first two are used to push Sheik back up into the air to prolong the juggle and rack up damage, while F-air can be used as a finisher to swat her offstage or catch her drifting too far away with the tipper hitbox that knocks her further upward.

Finishing your juggle can be done in a few different ways. The way I mentioned before, swatting her offstage with F-air is nice because it's not as punishable if you whiff and transitions you into edgeguarding. The other way, using a big hit like F-smash, is harder to pull off but with a larger reward. It's usually done by utilizing platforms and working it into a true combo. With enough raw damage, tipper U-tilt can finish the juggle simply by killing her off the top. Another possible finisher is N-air, but only on the second hit and its disjoint is a lot worse which can lead to you getting hit in retaliation.

Sheik will try to reach the ground usually by knocking you out of the air with one of her aerials. D-air and B-air have hitboxes that reach a fairly good distance beneath her falling body rather abruptly, which is why you should resist the urge to try and meet her in the air with a full jump. N-air comes out fast and shrinks her body a bit as it pulls her legs up in a more narrow shape, which can make you whiff while she falls through you with the lasting hitbox. F-air shouldn't hit you unless you find yourself beside her in the air, which you shouldn't be during a juggle. She can also airdodge through your attack and land before you if you commit too far with a jump. Despite all of this, proper anti-air can keep Sheik above you for a very long time.

Edgeguarding Sheik
Very frequently you'll find your punishes leading into edgeguard situations. The first rule to remember is that if Sheik cannot simply jump back onto the stage, you want to take the ledge and stall. You have two options for stalling: the high stall and the low stall. The high stall is done by jumping immediately upon releasing the ledge and then fastfalling back to catch it again. This puts your few vulnerable frames further upward, but you lose a bit of speed. The low stall is the most common and is done by simply dropping from the ledge and jumping back up to catch it. Your vulnerable body drifts a bit lower but has the advantage of being a few frames faster.

Choosing which stall option you want usually depends on where Sheik is coming from offstage. If she's high, there's a bit of a risk that she might hit you with a needle if you do low stall, which will really ruin your day. Doing high stall can keep you out of harms way for long enough for Sheik to fall low or choose to Up-B early. If Sheik is closer to the stage and coming from a lower position, low stalling can get you hit with her Up-B or even an aerial out of mid-air jump. High stalling can lose you the edge if you're not quick enough. Get accustomed to the different situations here so that you know when and how to stall. Doing so correctly will force Sheik to Up-B.

If you are below 100%, press forward while hanging from the ledge the moment you hear her poof. This will block her attempt to catch the ledge, and if she elects to reappear above the ledge, you have time to punish it on reaction. Otherwise, she will land onstage with her recovery and be caught in a very long endlag animation, which is a free punish. You can usually line up a tipper F-smash to knock her back off or finish the stock. The exceptions are if you don't have enough time (coming back on stage while above 100% requires you to ledge dash and can make it harder to line up the F-smash) or if she lands on a platform above you on Dreamland. Look for tippers first, otherwise go for reverse Up-B. You can ledgedash on stage, dash through her, then dash back at her and reverse Up-B all in a very short time. I believe this is also better for Dreamland since you can simply get back on stage and jump up to hit her with it very quickly.

Repeat as necessary. Be careful with center hit F-smashes because good Sheiks can amsah tech it and punish you. Reverse Up-B is also amsah techable but if done quickly enough they won't have had time to move their stick to the right position after having to choose their recovery angle.

Stages
FoD and Dreamland are the worst for this matchup, but with FoD being only slightly bad. Yoshi's is likely your best choice because of the earlier kill potential and good platforms so it's worthwhile to counterpick here. Second best counterpick comes down to your preference of platforms. I personally love Battlefield vs. Sheik because of the lack of walls for her to use for walljumps.

Platforms make juggles lead to deadlier punishes more often, but also makes it easier for Sheik to escape. FD will let you keep Sheik above you for the longest time, while making your ability to convert slightly worse. Stadium is a bit odd because of transformations. I like to avoid it, but it's all mostly up to preference/playstyle. Hone your own playstyle and figure out which works best for you, but in general: Yoshi's > Battlefield = FD > Stadium > FoD > Dreamland
 

Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
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full hop fairs from throw definetly something i do not do in any other matchup. thank you for the % info too. seems who i was playing was making frame perfect escapes or something

and yoshi's BF. awesome. i'll remember that too. as well as noticing a lack of second hop and placing aerials to pressure rather than necessarily connect. and catching those full hop needles.

another thing is marth can death combo falcon. and marth can't do that necessarily against sheik atleast not in the same way a spacey or falcon, its more like a keep it up until knocked off into edgeguard/edgehog ko vs sheik. the converting thing is real too.

gonna just chip damage till 13/15%-30% and within that window start the juggle. and dtilt.

also its when she does her fire poof directly at the edge after her little hop that always gets me

i'm sure just playing sheiks more will help as well, i never play them, only ever play spacies
 
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Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 4, 2007
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i realized down tilt is very good against sheik, it blocks grab. you almost have to keep her away like ic's in the same way that you don't want to get grabbed.

and also the precents were essentially the same as i thought its around 15% that uptilt will scoop them

but zoning with dtilt/zoned fair to dtilt for stage control is rly important as is juggling with uptilt/upair and not getting hit by the damn up+b blast

i still think its marths worst matchup because its the one matchup where you can't death combo whilst playing the matchup correctly, all other high tier match ups death comboing them is playing the matchup correctly, sheik doesn't get death combo'd by marth atleast not the way that marth is advised to play against sheik. its more so keep it up/away until an edgehog/ edgeguard

but down tilt is easily what hold it down when it comes to zoning them in good spacing to the stage and being able to follow up on their reaction to it cuz she can't grab it and you are crouch cancelling anything else there fore given the opprotunity to get something going through it
 
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LSDSSBM

Smash Rookie
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Jun 1, 2016
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Charleston, SC
Slippi.gg
Logan#0
Whenever I dthrow, I get instant naired if i try to get close, and dsmashed if I try to crouch cancel. Also, whenever I move to try to cramp Sheik, she just kinda runs at my dashdance and spotdodges to prevent grab and suddenly she has control and is close. How do I cramp her with movement? I usually end up trying to dtilt grab her and getting grabbed.
 

Barbeque

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
203
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if they ever recover with zelda catching it with uptilt will kill, or side B+uptilt

i still think this matchup is the worst matchup and looking a compelling reason as to how it couldn't be. or like 2-3 sentences that sum up the matchup for marth
 
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