Vs King Dedede

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

I really hate fighting Dededes!! I recently fought this one Dedede that frustrated me so much I had to record it and show it to you guys so you could tell me what I'm doing wrong. ;_;

For reference's sake, this is how I usually play Ness.

But these are the matches I had with Dedede....

I kept feeling so helpless. None of my usual tactics worked and I couldn't figure out any new strategies that worked.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

I don't think Ddd the problem. It was the player, ddd is a horrible matchup against ness, this player seemed very skilled. One thing don't rely on fire so much. You have to go in deep with a dash or nails.

 

[291C]

When he would roll behind you (your back to him), that's usually when he made his move. Instead of shielding/sidestepping, try and go on the offensive with a down smash.
There are a lot of instances where the DDD gets you to airdodge right before you hit the ground right next to him (usually by throwing a gordo). I would suggest avoiding that situation altogether and not approach him from that downward aerial angle.

DDD has a lot of large, disconnected hitboxes, but a lot of lag afterwards. If you can take advantage of the openings then, that should help a lot.

 

[Ranias]

PK Thunder absolutely wrecks Gordos. If he is far away and you expect him to Gordo throw, send out a PK Thunder for free damage basically.

Try not to get hit out of dodges and rolls. Never air dodge into the ground. Be more unpredictable.

You have to space really well versus DDD. I would mostly run away until I land a PK Fire or shield grab.

 

[Uffe]

1. In both matches, you would return to the stage and try to attack D3 when what you could have done was return to the edge of the stage.
2. You kept rolling when it wasn't necessary, leaving you open for a lot of his attacks. What you could have done was distanced yourself away from him and attacked with PKF.
3. You kept spotdodging when it also wasn't necessary, and at those times, you could have just blocked and possibly grabbed afterwards, or Out of Shielded (OoS) your nair.
4. When you had D3 off the stage or up in the air, you could have followed up with a uair or attacked him with PKT. Off stage, you could have went out and used fair, nair, or even attempted dair.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

4. When you had D3 off the stage or up in the air, you could have followed up with a uair or attacked him with PKT. Off stage, you could have went out and used fair, nair, or even attempted dair.

In my experience fighting not just Dedede, but anyone in For Glory, everyone recovers low. A lot of times when I do try and pursue someone off the stage, I end up getting hit by an aerial attack instead or inconvenienced in some way and die. It's especially risky for Ness since his recovering is very gimpable. Using PK Thunder on stage while my opponent is off stage is a safer option usually, but sometimes if they dodge it in air and make it back on the stage while I'm still in PKT animation, I get punished.

 

[Ranias]

Using PK Thunder on stage while my opponent is off stage is a safer option usually, but sometimes if they dodge it in air and make it back on the stage while I'm still in PKT animation, I get punished.

You need to kind of cover your body when you PK Thunder so you don't risk getting attacked out of it. Loop the PK Thunder back around and hit yourself if your opponent comes too close.

Also if they dodge you can still follow their trajectory with the PK Thunder if you practice looping it back at the right times.

 

[Uffe]

In my experience fighting not just Dedede, but anyone in For Glory, everyone recovers low. A lot of times when I do try and pursue someone off the stage, I end up getting hit by an aerial attack instead or inconvenienced in some way and die. It's especially risky for Ness since his recovering is very gimpable. Using PK Thunder on stage while my opponent is off stage is a safer option usually, but sometimes if they dodge it in air and make it back on the stage while I'm still in PKT animation, I get punished.

PKT is good against your opponents both high and low. If they're recovering low, then they're putting themselves in danger as you can tailwhip them, and at times, they'll be gimped. There are also times that if you hit them with the head of your PKT as they're recovering low, that they'll bounce off the stage and ricochet downward. If they're recovering high to the point you can't reach them, then again, PKT is your friend. The head and tail of PKT are both useful. If you can hit them directly, then great. If you can't, then tailwhip them. Spin that PKT around. If they're too close to you, then don't bother. But there have been times where I would chase them with PKT, they'd dodge, thus I end up hitting myself into them, and then there is a KO. PKT is a very useful tool, and you should always use it when you get the chance.

Also, if your opponent is recovering low, then nair and be pretty helpful, or dair, if it connects. I know you said that Ness gets gimped easily, but these are still useful, regardless. Either way, do some damage.

 

[foppy]

many times you allow the dedede to go unpunished. for example, he seems to try and chain tons of dtilts in a row, which is normally very easy to avoid if you double jump away or air dodge. you roll when it is not needed and you get punished for it, which is seen in the second video near the end of the match, where you rolled right into his dsmash. you sidestep/spotdodge unnecessarily often as well. often times you choose the wrong dodge option. in the first video, you seemed to fall for inhale multiple times when it was easy to avoid by rolling away. this also applies to how you ledge recover. you do regular ledge getups, which are very punishable.

in addition, you seem to have trouble against deflecting gordos. pk thunder is the best for deflecting them, as nair is easy to misspace and gordos can't be reflected by multihit moves if i recall correctly, so fair isn't an option.

I think the main thing you need to improve on is your punish game. many times you punish with jabs instead of pk fire or grabs. you could have had much more success if you punished with the above options. you also need to improve on punishing rolls with pk fire and dsmash.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

many times you allow the dedede to go unpunished. for example, he seems to try and chain tons of dtilts in a row, which is normally very easy to avoid if you double jump away or air dodge. you roll when it is not needed and you get punished for it, which is seen in the second video near the end of the match, where you rolled right into his dsmash. you sidestep/spotdodge unnecessarily often as well. often times you choose the wrong dodge option. in the first video, you seemed to fall for inhale multiple times when it was easy to avoid by rolling away. this also applies to how you ledge recover. you do regular ledge getups, which are very punishable.

in addition, you seem to have trouble against deflecting gordos. pk thunder is the best for deflecting them, as nair is easy to misspace and gordos can't be reflected by multihit moves if i recall correctly, so fair isn't an option.

I think the main thing you need to improve on is your punish game. many times you punish with jabs instead of pk fire or grabs. you could have had much more success if you punished with the above options. you also need to improve on punishing rolls with pk fire and dsmash.

I punish with PK Fire all the time fighting lesser skilled Smashers, but with skilled ones, it never seems to work. If they were to roll and I used PK Fire afterward, because PK Fire has such a long start up time, they've already rolled too far away or behind me. Since I'm still in my PK Fire animation, I'm the one who gets punished instead. That's why I just use jabs because they're my fastest option. But even then, some characters beat me to the punch and jab me instead. Moments like that really make me feel helpless, so I usually end up just staying away from them and just standing there, waiting to see what they do. I guess I'm not good at punishing because I fear I'll be the one punished instead. It's happened to me too many times.

 

[Ranias]

I punish with PK Fire all the time fighting lesser skilled Smashers, but with skilled ones, it never seems to work. If they were to roll and I used PK Fire afterward, because PK Fire has such a long start up time, they've already rolled too far away or behind me. Since I'm still in my PK Fire animation, I'm the one who gets punished instead.

Have you tried pivoting PK Fire? It can be more useful if you pivot because you space further away, lessening the chance of getting punished for using it. Also, PK Fire can do really well if you hit someone right out of a roll with it in the center of their body.

Moments like that really make me feel helpless, so I usually end up just staying away from them and just standing there, waiting to see what they do.

Just standing there is kind of giving your opponent an advantage. He would probably expect you to roll or shield his approach, and he can charge a down smash or something to punish. You can try at least poking him some with pivot PK Fires or a long range PK Thunder. Running away to think isn't that bad though.

 

[Eagleye893]

Normally I'm the guy who writes big critique posts on what to do differently or what tendencies I see that could be improved on in one's gameplay. I'm gonna try and cut out the word "big" from that and try and keep my comments short:

1ST VID:
-- You dodged a lot when you didn't need to. A habit that I picked up on when playing melee/PM was to space properly before thinking to dodge so that it's more of a fall-back measure. In this game, rolling and spot-dodging are great in that they have a higher number of invincibility frames (it seems like it to me), but that doesn't mean they're any more safe. Try using those dodge moves less and work more on maneuvering around the opponent's coverage
(eg#1. DDD has gordos to set walls up; those can be knocked back or reflected, and it helps if you do so. Trying to dodge around those puts you on a limited path, and limiting your movement is never a good idea.
eg#2. DDD has huge range with his hammer. Dodging around in that space before you're in danger of being hit by a move allows him to react and set up to cover your trajectory or position)
-- Know your secondary jump height. I saw @1:20 or so that you came short of the ledge and didn't PKT--> PKT2 early after maneuvering around the gordo. That could've been to avoid DDD hitting your thunder, but it looked a bit more like you thought you'd grab the ledge instead. Not only with recovery, but there was another instance in which you jumped over DDD into a position where you couldn't do anything to him; being above your opponent with Ness is generally bad, so keep in mind your jump heights when trying to move around your opponent.
-- You seemed a bit TOO passive. I know that DDD is to be feared in the same manner as Bowser or Ganon because they hit hard, but there were times where you stood around or backed off when you could at the very least get a FAir, DashAttack or DashGrab in. This is about recognizing the lag time between moves and the speed that Ness has to punish or capitalize on small mistakes in spacing or movement. I can't really think of a good example, but I'll try to look for one later.

2ND VID
-- PKT isn't a good neutral game move. If both of you are on equal footing, it's easy for the opponent to react and either shield it or run in and hit you with an attack before you recover from lag. I generally use PKT to cover other characters and their path around the stage when they're trying to return to the ground. Otherwise, they can shield which basically negates that as a reliable option.

Nothing else is really a big issue. You have decent combo knowledge, though sometimes you simply missed a move. One small thing is to vary your followups when your opponent gets trapped in a PK Fire pillar, but that's not as big a concern.

 

[foppy]

"I guess I'm not good at punishing because I fear I'll be the one punished instead. It's happened to me too many times.

this is probably just smash 4 favoring defensive play, but you still shouldn't always think like this. you just need to know when to go in for a punish or when to play patiently. if they make a mistake, try to take advantage of it and extend the punish as best as you can. by timing your punishes correctly, you can avoid being punished yourself as long as you are being careful. it's just easy to miss punishes with ness because of his poor range

 

[foppy]

That's why I just use jabs because they're my fastest option. But even then, some characters beat me to the punch and jab me instead.

as I mentioned, you can still go for grabs. if you have the opportunity to jab, they should definitely be grabbable. ranias mentioned piviot pk fire, which is also a viable option for punishes. mostly pk fire is good if you read the roll early. even with how fast rolls are in this game, they are still extremely predictable and you can read them without much trouble. you can also punish rolls with dash attack.