VS. Fox

[Duck SMASH!]

This guy.
THIS GUY.

I got thrashed by a good Fox player the other day.... and have no idea how to beat him.
He kept Comboing me, even when I tried to DI out.
The reflector can stop the mechakoopas if timed properly, and a good fox WILL time his reflector properly.
I tried to punish but I had no experience with Sm4sh Fox and promptly got shieldgrabbed.
His Usmash is the bane of Jr's existence.
And his blaster is arguably better at forcing approaches than Jr's projectiles (Cannonball is out of the question due to the reflector)

Advice on this matchup?

 

[Timbers]

I have very little experience vs Jr, but weird thing to note is Jr's cannonball often loses its hitbox when Fox (or maybe any character) reflects it. I believe it's distance dependent. Have seen Jr's just walk right through their reflected cannonball lol.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I have very little experience vs Jr, but weird thing to note is Jr's cannonball often loses its hitbox when Fox (or maybe any character) reflects it. I believe it's distance dependent. Have seen Jr's just walk right through their reflected cannonball lol.

The cannonball loses its hitbox the moment it bounces off the ground. That is likely why you saw Jr. walk through a reflected cannonball.
But if he gets hit before it bounces it will hurt >.>

 

[moyshe]

Personally never had issues dealing with Bowser Jr's, but I do think Bowser Jr has some nice things that even things out.

Bowser Jr's neutral air seems to come out really quickly, really nice to punish phantasms and to start getting things rollings.

Bowser Jr's projectiles seem to be really laggy and are just combo openings for Fox so I wouldn't rely heavily on those.

Fair, Dair, a lot of BJR's ariels seem to all come out very quickly and if you can beat Fox in the air that's already half the battle. I would need to play more good Bowser Jr's to really get a full understand of the MU but that's all I have so far. I hope to fight a Bowser Jr that gives me some trouble.

 

[LwYz.Ph.]

It is a hard matchup, and thanks to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agTPENb_1gY is now probably one of the hardest matchups for Bjr.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

It is a hard matchup, and thanks to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agTPENb_1gY is now probably one of the hardest matchups for Bjr.

omg are you serious? the freaking JAB combo now?
T_T
GG NO RE.
90/10 Fox T_T

 

[krazyzyko]

It is a hard matchup, and thanks to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agTPENb_1gY is now probably one of the hardest matchups for Bjr.

Can't Jr Dair out of it?

 

[Laem]

One of Bjrs worst MUs imo, I'd switch to a secondary.
The jab combo is guaranteed afaik, but if fox isn't doing it correctly you can jump out, or perhaps try to mash forward air: you might get the landing hitbox that even allows a follow up.

 

[guedes the brawler]

our big advantage in this MU is that we own Fox offstae. we just need to quickly shut off his option of using phanstasm and forcing a fire fox which fair and bair can beat.

also, mechakoopas are still very usable if fox is recovering. the time he stops for reflecting kills his midair momentum and makes our job easier if we can pull it on a midair foxy.

He's still a combo food. up tilt and up air are great tools to hit fox with.



we are in a disvantage here, but unlike the shiek match-up i think a win is viable here.

 

[SSTT]

I'd say don't be conservative with the down-smashes. Most fox players love to cross up or do tomahawks instead of engaging straight on; worst thing you can do is sit there and shield, since Jr's grab game is weak. With Jr's kit, it's mostly a gamble.
Kart OoS is a nice surprise, and Up Air work wonders against a fast faller like fox.

Very important thing to keep in mind is to not miss the 90~120% kill range of your UpB true combo. A raged fox is especially deadly.

 

[The_ToolBag]

Honestly, I believe this is Bowser Jrs worst MU. Luigi is a good counterpick if you main BJ, because he is pretty good against fox, ness, and diddy.

 

[Glicnak]

Honestly, I believe this is Bowser Jrs worst MU. Luigi is a good counterpick if you main BJ, because he is pretty good against fox, ness, and diddy.

Its funny you say that because i feel lile bjr actually has a good MU vs diddy at least in my experience, especially compared to other characters vs diddy

 

[The_ToolBag]

BJ is okay against diddy, but there is a big approach issue

 

[pikazz]

Bowser Jr do have indeed little problem against fox, especially thanks to Jab Combo and his reflector.
but fox itself isnt a problem if those 2 didnt exist.

Fox is a fast falling character, meaning Jr is perfect for him with combos and if Fox is offstage will Jr have the upperhand.
the stage choice is kinda a must if you struggling against a fox or falco. a good fox&falco counterpick stage is Delfino Plaza, Halberd and Kongo Jungle 64 thanks to "no wall and small grab" ledges, meaning they need to be precise with SideB, otherwise they can go through the stage and miss

 

[guedes the brawler]

halberd's a double edged sword tho. i'm not sure i want to take one of the series's best vertical killers to a low cieling stage. Delfino is Definetively fine. hehe

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Bowser Jr do have indeed little problem against fox, especially thanks to Jab Combo and his reflector.
but fox itself isnt a problem if those 2 didnt exist.

Fox is a fast falling character, meaning Jr is perfect for him with combos and if Fox is offstage will Jr have the upperhand.
the stage choice is kinda a must if you struggling against a fox or falco. a good fox&falco counterpick stage is Delfino Plaza, Halberd and Kongo Jungle 64 thanks to "no wall and small grab" ledges, meaning they need to be precise with SideB, otherwise they can go through the stage and miss

Can't a Fox just use his up B and go through the floor of each of those stages? I mean, you can punish it but he's not totally dead, no?

 

[pikazz]

Can't a Fox just use his up B and go through the floor of each of those stages? I mean, you can punish it but he's not totally dead, no?

it depence of either they reaction or the ending lag from the SideB. I won against a Falco with 2 stocks because he missed the ledge on delfino plaza once

 

[Duck SMASH!]

it depence of either they reaction or the ending lag from the SideB. I won against a Falco with 2 stocks because he missed the ledge on delfino plaza once

Hm.... I think we should also consider Lylat Cruise then.
If he misses the ledge he's as good as dead. One good Bair/Fair will stop any Fire Fox attempts if he's recovering from under the stage.
It's not a big loss cuz if you're recovering low Fox can gimp us anyway with Nair or stage spike with Bair...

 

[Timbers]

It's not a big loss cuz if you're recovering low Fox can gimp us anyway with Nair or stage spike with Bair...

This sounds a bit more like theorycraft right here. A fox trying to stagespike with bair is like a death sentence for the Fox. it's a slow bair (9F) with lots of endlag (if it can't be autocancelled), and Fox falls fast. He'll always need to recover very low with an easily punishable upB.

I was finally able to play a few games with a Jr a few days ago. Fox's jab cancels definitely do work in this MU, but I'm still needing to figure out how to get around a lot of Jr's disjoints and gimmicks, and Jr's combo game is crazy against Fox, similar to how Fox gets some nice damage racking...but Jr kills a lot sooner.

As time has progressed, do Jr mains still consider Fox to be one of their worst MUs? I'm not sure what Fox has that could terrorize Jr any more than other quick characters in the roster. Is it primarily the jab cancels?

 

[Duck SMASH!]

@ Timbers I guess the Bair option needs testing. someone on For Glory pulled it off on me before...
9 frames isn't that slow lol... most of Jr's aerials take longer than that to come out...
but fastfalled Nair is still enough to gimp... >.>
Proof: Watch the end of game 1 in this video.

Also, here's another Bowser Jr. vs Fox match.

This video has good examples of what NOT to do as Bowser Jr....
Be careful what you do out of kart dash because Fox's running Usmash will easily catch Jr and kill him after around 100%....
Also, this wasn't in the video but I've seen this online. Characters like Mario, Link, Sheik, and Fox, all with sex kicks in their Nairs, can easily knock Jr. out of his Kart dash. Watch for that and meet them with a Fair instead if you predict that.
Spinning out of kart dash has massive endlag and doesn't do enough shield damage to make it worthwhile... It's good for a mixup and if you read a landing (cuz this move can kill) but not the most reliable.

Also Up B is still really really risky. Combine that with the extra damage Jr. takes without his clown car and you're pretty much inviting Fox to Usmash you off the top.
And that jab lock, while it was not always successful from the Fox player, has the potential to outright ruin Jr's chances...
Halberd and its low ceiling also made this difficult. If you face a Fox, BAN THIS STAGE.
Battlefield also wasn't the best... the lower ceiling and platforms also help Fox more than Jr, though Oracle was ablee to use the platforms to continue his strings of aerials.

 

[pikazz]

actually, the JC has no lag at all so you can easy either do a Nair, Fair, Dair, UpB or air dodge as soon as you tap the jump button! it can be used as a UpSmash Bait

 

[Duck SMASH!]

actually, the JC has no lag at all so you can easy either do a Nair, Fair, Dair, UpB or air dodge as soon as you tap the jump button! it can be used as a UpSmash Bait

Not sure whether Usmash will trade with aerials if timed properly or if one attack will override the other.
From my experience online, if you use Nair, fastfall it so that Fox can't get under you with a Usmash primed.
Dair sounds really risky if you aren't able to predict where your opponent will land or guess wrong...
Air dodges work as a mixup, but since you can't move anywhere else, Fox merely need to charge his upsmash predicting a dodge, and you'll likely die...
That being said, we should really test these out vs Fox players... it will help to set the record straight and confirm whether these options are good or bad.
Edit: my bad. I thought Jr. jumped out of his dash at the end of that second video. After looking again, he spun out which is even more dangerous. Yeah... I agree that jumping is better.

I tend to use Bair after passing opponents with the kart dash to snag them if they chase too easily (but it doesn't work against falcon and sonic who tend to be right under me for a punish or keep running and pivot grab me instead... I imagine Fox is fast enough to do this as well but we need some good matches between these two to find out)

 

[Timbers]

@ Timbers I guess the Bair option needs testing. someone on For Glory pulled it off on me before...
9 frames isn't that slow lol... most of Jr's aerials take longer than that to come out...

Pick Fox and use bair offstage. You'll fall like a rock. It's possible but should Fox miss (VERY LIKELY), it's your duty as any character not named Lil Mac to go out there and gimp his slow as hell recovery. The nair option is there, but if you're listing Fox's nair as a real gimp threat to Jr, then you should be aware that there are dozens of other characters that have even more threatening gimp potential.

Fox bair is slow as far as bairs are concerned. There's a lot of bairs in the roster that are 4-7F. Naturally there's some heavies (including Jr) with slower aerials, but Fox's bair is his slowest move, bar fsmash. Jr's aerials are also much more practical to use offstage as well.

With all that said, Fox probably shouldn't be trying to contest disjoints with his bair, and the biggest threat for Jr is a grounded Fox that actually has the speed to bait.