Vs. Camping + Rolling + Throw

[FortGar]

Hi, I'm really bad. I'm working on my techs and getting faster, but while I do that in single player I keep losing to my friend who plays Mario and all he does is throw fire balls and roll + throw when I try to approach (I play pikachu)

I just want to know what I'm supposed to do against this and how I'm supposed to approach so I can start practicing it along with shffling + combos. If there's a pikachu matchup guide a link would be great.

Edit: Also, how do I edge guard a mario? When I go under him to uair he upBs early, if I go above him he does the same thing. If I try to bair he also just upBs.

 

[Tambor]

Against fireballs, hitting them is usually better than trying to maneuver your way around them. Any aerial attack works. Whenever he rolls, you turn around and grab him, rolling makes him very vulnerable. Rolling is also very slow, you should be able to react way before he can move.
For edgeguarding, use good ol' cheap fsmash.

 

[FortGar]

I'm usually in the air when I approach because I usually approach with a delayed f-air so I can't grab him, should I be approaching from the ground?

 

[DMoogle]

You're *probably* not using as many aerial attacks as you should. Check out Isai's videos (probably the best player in the world) to help get started with the right mindset for how to play.

You should know that SHFFLing doesn't really exist in Smash 64. When you're in the process of using an aerial move, you can't fastfall (FF). L-canceling at all times (well, except for Pika's u-air, which is one of the few moves that doesn't require an L-cancel) is definitely critical though.

If he's on the ground when you approach with an f-air, then you should be able to follow it up with a grab or an up-smash. Generally a better approach is to use b-air though. It has a huge, nicely disjointed hitbox.

For edgeguarding, instead of jumping off the ledge to try to knock him away, just wait at the edge, position yourself correctly so that his up-B won't hit you, and f-smash once he gets close enough.

Also, start playing online if you haven't already. Playing against a wide variety of players will definitely help you improve. Check out the Smash Index in the main forum for more information.

 

[Sempiternity]

Don't be so predictable when approaching with aerials. If you lunge at his current position every time, of course he's gonna roll away and then come in for the grab.

 

[FortGar]

I try to watch a lot of vids of isai, and I see him fast fall first then do an aerial then l-cancel, I guess that's not the same thing as shffling. The main problem is he never faces anyone that shield camps in a corner and whenever someone rolls he just insta punishes by comboing them to death and I'm definitely not good enough to do that yet, so even though it helps to let me know how ideally I should play I can't actually implement it against my friends. Thanks everyone for the tips though.

 

[DMoogle]

If your opponent is shielding, approach them with an aerial to put them in "shield stun" (so they can't drop their shield or roll for a few frames), then grab them before they have a chance to do anything.

 

[Pink_Kirby]

If you would like to practice punishing roll / shield spamming just start a 1v1 against a level 9 CPU. If you park yourself in front of the CPUs, there's a certain range of distance about 1 ftilt away where they will almost invariably roll behind you and shield, and if you turn around to face them they will do it again (and again ... and again). Playing CPU's is a terrible way to learn to approach though because approaching CPU's is as about as hard as falling off a log (b/c of how predictable they are).

 

[asianaussie]

Calm down and don't get frenetic. If you have your reflexes ready, rolls are ridiculously easy to punish. Approach with something like N-Air/F-Air to break fireballs, then when he rolls behind you turn around and grab or dashdance grab him. Any other move can work as well, just keep calm and time it.

Edgeguarding Mario with Pika should consist of F-Smash on-edge, or falling off with N-Air. The first is much safer, but the second can also work, exchanging blows with Mario's Up-B consistently.

 

[Sempiternity]

If you would like to practice punishing roll / shield spamming just start a 1v1 against a level 9 CPU. If you park yourself in front of the CPUs, there's a certain range of distance about 1 ftilt away where they will almost invariably roll behind you and shield, and if you turn around to face them they will do it again (and again ... and again). Playing CPU's is a terrible way to learn to approach though because approaching CPU's is as about as hard as falling off a log (b/c of how predictable they are).

Oh man, have you ever done log birling? Absolutely hilarious and really hammers home that point about falling off a log.



Yeah, and, um, about that rolling. D-Smash a lot.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Downsmash as pika? ...no

 

[DMoogle]

Pika's downsmash is an bad choice just slightly under 100% of the time.

 

[Sempiternity]

Haha, I completely forgot that he was playing as Pikachu!

Solution: pick Link and down smash a lot. This will probably go horribly awry, though, so be prepared.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Also Dsmash with Link is not that good either.

 

[asianaussie]

the hell are you on about, his d-smash has huge hitboxes, is relatively fast, punishes rolls very well and beats out a lot of things

might not be the best move in the world but it sure as hell isn't 'not that good'

 

[ciaza]

But the fact is he recommended to counter pick a Mario with a Link.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

@asianaussie... ^^^ This!
Which is not a good idea.

Spoiler

I know the Link's dsmash hitboxes, I've seen the fireblaster's thread.

 

[Sempiternity]

But the fact is he recommended to counter pick a Mario with a Link.

This is also another fact I ignored (read: didn't read the thread). Man, I'm on a roll!

 

[mysalsatrain]

fireballs are slow and easy to jump over, just jump over them and use an aerial attack, but if he rolls grab him

 

[Kabutox]

answer is simple, jump towards him with a short jump, then in midair go back to your own spot with an aerial attack. He will roll there. Small chance he will roll the other way, but just look if he does that. If you keep pressuring him a bit he will roll towards you. In that case do ^ .

If you hit him in his shield, and he grabs out of his shield all the time, cancel your aerial, run 1 step away (you will dodge his grab), then run back and grab.

If you're good at pressuring shields just grab him right after your first attack from the air.

 

[reallyfastcar]

I have a friend I play with on console once a week who got me into smash brothers, and he plays Ness and it is the single most annoying thing on the planet.

HE non stop rolls and I swear to god he just holds 'R' down the entire time. I use falcon so usually it results in a Ness grab which gets me off the edge and followed by a spike.

It's not as bad as it use to be but it is the most annoying play style to go against, no combos no nothing just grab some times a sprinting A which I just shield and grab him now, followed by him jumping off the map above me and charging down with a spike. It's just depressing.

But one thing to stop screw him over with is using jabs and faints, learn how to play fox and just jab him in the face. Or just smother him with a pillow when he sleeps. He probably deserves it.

 

[ballin4life]

you know that when he rolls he is vulnerable for a bit and you can see exactly where he is going, right?


also, now imagine that he uses kirby and only does roll -> utilt (a hitbox that's like 20x bigger than ness's grab)

 

[Sempiternity]

just dash dance back and forth until he rolls and charge in for a grab

i know what you mean, bro, people who play the grab metagame are absolutely infuriating

i have this friend who plays Melee and actually does pretty well. he shffl's, approaches with aerials, does basic combos, and plays semi-legit. but once we break out the n64, it's like all that smash knowledge goes out the window and it's just grab+spike

 

[Battlecow]

Just get better and it's easy to beat, no other way really. respond in kind if it really seems OP (DK, for example, is a great grab-only char because his grab is ****ing gigantic compared to ness') but honestly you won't stop being annoyed by it until you reach the level where you can just say "oh, he's gonna roll, I can call that and run over and punish easily."

 

[reallyfastcar]

Well last night I learnt that if you just stay calm and wait for them to have a roll fit, it is/has become very predictable, just don't panic. And just attack which way they are going to be rolling I just felt sorry for them last night.

 

[asianaussie]

learning to stay calm and watch the opponent is a good step towards becoming a better player

 

[Sempiternity]

it's always so satisfying when you realize their game and then not only beat them, but destroy them

it's like, "that'll teach you for being a ****** **** **** **** ***** *** ******* ********ing****stain!"

 

[reallyfastcar]

Hahahah o man I know but I try to be the nice guy, but be heaps condescending.

It's easy to stay calm against people like that, against the guys online I panic a little haha

 

[King Omega]

Jab fireballs. Maximum swag.

Also, 99% of the time, anyone who rolls toward or past an opponent is a scrub.

 

[asianaussie]

i once ran straight up to someone, rolled past them and landed a grab

as samus

it was beautiful

 

[Sempiternity]

rolling with samus throws everybody off

it's like when you're playing foosball and there's that one slow roller that manages to creep by your best efforts of spinning and slamming only to dribble into the goal and you're like "wat"

 

[Han Solo]

rolling with samus throws everybody off

it's like when you're playing foosball and there's that one slow roller that manages to creep by your best efforts of spinning and slamming only to dribble into the goal and you're like "wat"

I know EXACTLY what you mean.

 

[King Omega]

rolling with samus throws everybody off

it's like when you're playing foosball and there's that one slow roller that manages to creep by your best efforts of spinning and slamming only to dribble into the goal and you're like "wat"

I think Samus can be completely and accurately described by the metaphor of a rickety foosball table that you picked up at a garage sale.

 

[M!nt]

idk what you guys mean, samus is easier to predict rolls for me...