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Vs. Battle (Ubers): Sheik Matchup

A10theHero

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A10theHero
Alright, here we'll be discussing the matchup against the Cunning Kunoichi and/or Silent Shinobi Sheik!
We'll move onto the next matchup after one week. It's probably gonna be Rosalina and Luma.
Anyways, I'll post a link to some frame data here in case that'll be helpful:

Sheik's Frame Data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Sheik
Pikachu's Frame Data: http://smashboards.com/threads/pikachus-frame-data.402561/
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Pikachu

All you guys have to do now is discuss! So let the battle between Pikachu and the challenger Sheik from Fuchsia City commence!
Edit: :grin:
ESAM vs Mr R.png
 
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FUEGO!

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I find that trying to counter pressure her with our projectiles and (IMO) superior edge guarding is a pretty good start. Otherwise I don't feel that i have fought enough top level sheiks to give more than that. I'm certain our QAC tricks give us the movement option advantage, just as it does the rest of the cast.
 
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Ritronaut

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Jan 29, 2015
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Can I just say... I love the title, and the picture is utterly hilarious. Good job.

This matchup is honestly pretty even, and sheik's probable worst matchup (Yes, I believe sheik is so good that her worst matchup is even, or maybe its also even with Rosalina, but thats debatable). But honestly I don't know what to do against sheik, and what to do against Fair pressure. Fairs really box us in, and she is one of the hardest characters to gimp. I haven't fought much good sheiks so I really don't know. Our advantage is that we have the most ungimpable and best recovery in the game, so its harder for sheik to gimp us than us to gimp her.
 

A10theHero

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A10theHero
Here is the information on Sheik from the matchup thread that @ Umbreoff Umbreoff had in his awesome Google doc:
Sheik:

Hell-dew#118 2/10/2015
K ima restart me actaully posting here cause ive been in the lab on a lot of things leveling up and the like


i was playing Master ravens sheik as well as a few other sheiks at APex i think that MU is a negative 1 or a 40-60 at worst. that said that MU is very not fun but its more then winnable. shieks crap kill moves and our annoying size and mobility make that MU annoying for her plus we have significantly better kill options then sheik does but she beats us in the neutral. hardest thing about that MU is getting in you get in you beat the crap out of her. you will have to use every tool in the book to get in though cause her hit boxes in general beat ours in the head to head IE jolt is really meh in this MU cause needles just win Fair cant challenge her fair like at all (unless the sheik sucks hard at spacing) but you can attack her with it if shes grounded. getting under her is really bad for her and off stage be careful of her up B killing you but you can edge guard sheik i found wave bounced thunders the safest cause they intercept bouncing fish. and dont put you in a heavily committal position. aside from that there is a opening on sheiks up B look around for when you can hit it


off stage in her advantage this is probably one of the most impotent things about the MU IMO. if you skull bash its almost a free bouncing fish for sheik be VERY aware when the hell you use a skull bash otherwise you gonna get slapped also Mr R has a evil needle to BF combo which is a easy snipe to kill for sheik so be smart when recovering be aware of the spacing your at and the laggy *** start up on skull bash


also if you get Down thrown always always jump she cannot follow up on it freely. NEVER airdodge. if you air dodge its a free up B for sheik and that crap hits hella hard plus you in the air meaning closer to blast zone jump retreat find a way down after you jump you have a ton of options use a thunder to wall her out if she over extends quick attack away or into her even skull bash away from her use platforms etc. and know her up air can kill at reasonable high %s shes not worth trying to land on. plus she has the up air let go of the hitbox land and continue combo nonsense which is a bit annoying (i haven't tested to many options against it yet though)


thunder is really godlike for trading with sheiks stupid moves like Ftilt strings and the like dont bother using it on Fair strings cause you get knocked horizontally to far personally if she starts fair stringing me i just accept the fact im gonna get bodied across the stage and work from there cause shes gets bodied by our uptilt stings and up air so W/E (sheiks Dair isnt really good to challenge our upair lol)


in the neutral getting in is weird she has better hit boxes in general and can play safer but does less damage per hit meaning if we play the rock paper scissors with her and roll even we win.however she has slightly more rolls in her favor in general but we need less to win basically we can out space her out right with Fsmash (i like pivot Fsmash so much in this game its godlike) Dtilt is good cause it lowers your hurt box and is a long hit box Ftilt is very situatial il sometimes toss QAs and Wave bounced jolts in the mix. its usually good to not stand to far away also i think in terms of stages i like gimicky Jolt angles to apply pressure so stuff like lylat Halberd are pretty much auto ban for her against us i personally think smash vile is kinda bad against her cause the platform gives her way to many options to recovery and kill us early off the side plus it allows her to pressure us way harder off stage. outside of that FD is easier to focus on her up close while BF is dumb for extending our combos in general and because jolts are dumb BF is excellent for use i haven't messed around much on castle Delphino or other CPs yet though


hopefully i didn't miss to much and some of that's useful


Soul#116 2/7/2015
That's what I thought too. You pretty much can't edgeguard Sheik in this game. Her air speed makes it even more difficult.

There is no point in using Thunder offstage. You could like, use it on the ground after an up throw to KO if she doesn't DI.


M15t3R E#115 2/7/2015
Good luck throwing out an offstage thunder before Sheik's bouncing fish hits you. Yeah, bouncing fish is that fast. That is, if you attempt to hit them with the shockwave while hovering directly in their recovery path. If you merely leap slightly offstage and throw out a thunder wall to halt their advance to the ledge it's safe of course. However, even then with vanish (Sheik's Up B) she can wait out part of it and grab the edge while the thunder is still flying downward and use their invincibility frames to avoid the rest of it. It is difficult to edgeguard Sheik due to her Up B mechanics. You pretty much have to go deep offstage and avoid retaliation.


Soul#114 2/6/2015
Pika vs. Sheik is one of the most interesting MUs to me. Top tier matches, stuff, stuff and more stuff..

I don't know if offstage Thunder is good here. Sheik has a good recovery in this game with the new ledge mechanics and Bouncing Fish.


Recovery aside yeah the MU is even. They both have the tools to make it an even matchup.


SolidSense#113 2/6/2015
At this point in time I don't believe that Pikachu has any bad matchups in the game. He goes even with at least the following characters:

Sheik, Yoshi, Mario, Greninja, Mega man, peach.


These guys all have tools that are effective against what Pikachu does, but Pikachu has tools that are annoying for them, too.


Sheik is the only one who doesn't particularly mind what Pikachu does, but strangely Pikachu doesn't really mind what Sheik does, either. They nullify each other's tools onstage and offstage in an interesting way. It's an even MU, but it might lean slightly one way or another. The major selling point for Pikachu here is that he's short, and to hit him with f-air while he's crouching Sheik has to be a little bit unsafe.


M15t3R E#91 1/24/2015
Okay, this is my area of expertise. I have played the Pika vs. Sheik MU too many times to count. The first thing you need to understand is that the neutral game is dead even. Someone has to approach first and neither character will want to at the start of the game. The needles travel so much faster than thunder-jolts and don't fly over Pikachu's head. This usually prompts me to be the one to approach. If you anticipate the fairs and intermittent barrages of needles, you can approach in multiple ways. First of all, examine how the Sheik likes to try and shut down your approaches. If it's with excessive fairs, don't try challenging it with your aerials but instead move along the ground and close the distance. If it is a mostly grounded Sheik player (possibly zoning back and forth), approach by ground or fairs alternating every so often to mix it up. Approaching with QA is also effective as it is against any character so long as it is not abused. Sheik will space with fair and bair as their bread and butter attacks but this gives you an opening to rush in after you shield it. If the fair or bair is telegraphed, d-smash will work. At first, I was thoroughly intimidated by Sheik's bouncing fish (down B) as a follow-up and as an edgeguarding tool. If shielded, it will bounce Sheik right back to her starting position, too far to punish in most cases. An air dodge gives you the most invincibility frames to avoid it and when it is avoided Sheik is a sitting duck for a couple seconds. Bouncing fish is also surprisingly susceptible to being intercepted by Pikachu's fair and bair, in my experience. When you get the grab use f-throw -> DA at extremely low percents or d-throw -> u-tilt -> uair string at relatively low percents and any damage higher than that do d-throw -> uair string. If Sheik is being predictable while airborne, don't be afraid to get directly below and start a uair string right then and there. She can't do anything if you are directly below. As for tech chasing, Pikachu is adept in covering an opponent's tech roll and Sheik's is no exception. I frequently get the punish when my opponent's Sheik is being too predictable in their tech rolling. It's usually going to be performed in the direction away from Pikachu. Make use of this information and go for the tech chase! Off-stage game is pretty moot because neither character has an easy time gimping the other. Sheik can recover at deceptively far distances with vanish and once they hit Up B there is nothing more you can do to prevent them from grabbing the edge. I like to stand near the edge and predict their get-up by throwing out a thunder wall as I jump forward, putting the thunder between the two of us.

Well, that's all I can remember about that MU right now. It is either a dead even MU, or at worst 55/45 in Sheik's favor. I feel like Sheik does not need to work as hard to keep up but that is a biproduct of Sheik's gameplay- not a result of adapting to Pikachu's playstyle.


Plasmaexe#41 10/29/2014
Shrieks been the most difficult match up for me (at least against good ones). I have no idea how to deal with that neutral air (forward tilt doesn't seem to work that well stopping it and doing any of Pikachu's aerials ends up in a bad trade), plus I can't seem to ever punish it with a grab. Getting a little better with avoiding Bouncing fish (punishing it is another thing though and dodging it altogether is tough without anticipating it), but it does get me still sometimes and makes using thunder jolt very unsafe at mid-range. Sheik can usually follow up with all his tilt moves, but Pikachu can't unless it's an aerial.


Psyant#30 10/27/2014
Sheik is pretty even grounds but I think Pikachu wins by a bit. Pikachu can make even Sheik look slow in some ways. Sheik also relies on edgeguarding to KO even more than us if she can't hit with Bouncing Fish, so it's a nightmare for her to KO Pikachu. In my experience if you vector up from her down throw she can almost never hit the up air followup on Pikachu, which she relies on to kill a lot.


Nocally#28 10/27/2014
Shiek You can combo around like she can you if you re not careful. Shielding her areal approaches and her jabs can net you some nice damage on her, if she carelessly throws out her jabs you can shield or DI down and shield, then punish her with a down-tilt. If the Shiek player spams needles, spam thunder jolts, since the two attacks will go through each other. Both Pikachu and Shiek has trouble killing, but the only thing you really have to look out for is her bouncing fish move, otherwise her kill moves are easily telegraphed in close range, which is where Pikachu´s kill moves are… don’t be too afraid to go in on Sheik.
 
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Umbreoff

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Good job linking to the frame data. I'm actually thinking of adding frame data to my google doc. I know that there was a post a while back that had all of the frame data for everyone and another one that organized all that data quite well. I believe all that frame data might be for previous versions, though. I think we're on version 1.0.8 of Smash 4 right now. I'll have to find that frame data anyway, I think. Kurogane has 25 characters out of the 50 and I don't know how often they update the stats (but it does still seem like a very useful website).

The two matchups that I know change (if only slightly) are pikachu vs. Diddy Kong and pikachu vs. Captain Falcon (ZeRo said that both of these characters (Falcon and Diddy) were nerfed in a tweet.) I'll have to find a changelog of sorts for update 1.0.8 to see what else has changed (I believe Falco and Charizard were buffed, idk for sure though). I believe Sheik and pikachu have been pretty much untouched, so the matchup should be the same, but I'll have to look at the changelog (at least a changelog on Smashboards) to make sure. Thanks for reading lol.
 

Thor

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Can one SH over needles? If so, does SH dair work? SH dair is an awesome counter to needles if it works, but I have no one to test with. I like SH dair because it does a ton of percent and forces techs at mid-percent. SH uair and fair are also obviously good and should be checked to see if they work [SH RAR uair can start combos very well]. This would help the MU slightly if we can [some Sheiks needle at point-blank as a get-off-me, since often people shield after it leading to grab, and also because close-range needles do more damage], but it's no deal-breaker if not. I apologize for asking here but I have no one to help me test [sorry].

Fsmash outranges her ftilt - if someone does an ftilt string but does one too many you can fsmash depending on the timing [and can fsmash it if they do it again trying to snuff out an aerial after you fall out].

I think it's about even - when I play Sheiks [including a few pretty good ones] I basically never get combo'd into bouncing fish [even off fair bouncing fish] so as long as you're wary of aerial needles, she'll struggle to KO [I live to about 160% when I don't get fsmashed (fair near the ledge starts to kill us then) and still usually to at least 120% otherwise]. For dthrow, I recommend basically ALWAYS doing double jump airdodge - it avoids uair AND Vanish if done correctly as far as I know [at least at percents where uair doesn't true combo - at some percents you just eat the uair and deal with it - but when I'm in Vanish range I'm not hit and uairs seem to miss me as well] - and at the percents where she can Vanish or uair she usually have to double jump for the uair, meaning you have decent time to figure out how to land. As far as onstage, I THINK Pika fair outranges hers when spaced correctly, but hers is faster, so it's a constant spacing battle [in the way Ike fair outranges Marth fair in Brawl, but Marth fair is much faster]. We both combo each other pretty well, although I think Pikachu is slightly better at comboing Sheik, but Pikachu's combos are also a little trickier. Pikachu may struggle to KO Sheik if you can't land those reads or punishes due to Sheik being so safe, but if they whiff a Bouncing Fish, usmash KOs around or before 100% if I'm not mistaken [her fsmash kills us slightly later on a whiffed smash, so be careful!]. I may be painting a picture suggesting Pikachu wins, but Pikachu's grounded tilts are simply outranged [dtilt can maybe contend with the range but I'm pretty sure Sheik is tied or has us beat], and Sheik ftilt is amazing. It doesn't shut us down, but it does everything Sheik wants it to do - control space, combo, low lag and fast startup, and even kills at like 180% (which sounds dumb, but with her combo ability, over 100% is not that difficult and over 130%, it means those stray fairs still slightly matter) [if you're living past 190% they either don't know or you're a god at not getting ftilted...]. Her pivot ftilt is also awesome, so be wary of approaching a Sheik who is running away.

ESAM mentioned that perfect pivot utilt beats Sheik fair if spaced well - I'm not nearly technical enough to do that with any consistency, but as time goes on this might tend to make Pikachu better in the MU if people can do that consistently.

We win the MU slightly with customs on - you shouldn't be getting hit by her side special two (gravity grenade?) [just airdodge and up+b if you're high enough, or get hit by it and hold down to tech the stage if you're that low - and onstage we're fast enough to where it should basically never connect - and that's ignoring shield] and penetrating needles don't shield break on their own, so just run around some if you accidentally shield a full stack of them from afar (I recommend SH/FH airdodge from afar and shield -> grab up close, since I think they're laggy enough to do that) [but be wary of 2111 - shielding burst grenade locks us in long enough for her to unload a stack of Penetrating needles, and that WILL cause a shield break!]. Meanwhile, Heavy Skull Bash is amazing.

This is just my thoughts. People can feel free to disagree, call me out, whatever - I'm more interested in getting the nitty-gritty of the MU down than being right here. I also know there's a lot I didn't discuss. For numbers, 50:50 customs off, 55:45 customs on favoring Pikachu.
 
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Gibbs

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One aspect of the match-up that is particularly troublesome for pika is that shiek might be the only character in the game that can reliably punish near all aggressive QA options on reaction and out of shield. And that's not even considering how good just throwing out a nair is at stuffing QA. QAC and QALC might be the only way to get frame advantage on shiek up close.

There's talk that the match up is even in the neutral game, but I find that a little hard to accept since shiek is always at a frame and range advantage against pika. We also have no convincing answer for needles save perfect shielding them. At least it's harder for shiek to use needles to landing punish pika due to QA. Shiek has a convincing answer to every one of pika's tools in neutral. That said, it seems like pika's kit is almost designed to beat the player not the character. Pika's aggressive mix-up potential is the best in the game. At all times, and at all ranges the shiek player has to be ready for pika zip in and get 30% off a single up tilt. So I would guess that pika loses neutral in frame perfect play, but might have an edge practice by constantly mixing up our options and not letting the shiek get a read on you.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Kurogane has 25 characters out of the 50 and I don't know how often they update the stats (but it does still seem like a very useful website).
(Late, sorry for the offtopic)

Will be finishing off all characters that don't have a page with 1.0.8 data, then I'll go back and update all the characters done prior to 1.0.8 with current data.

I've got someone helping me now, so it should speed up considerably.
 

Umbreoff

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Aerodrome said: ^
(Late, sorry for the offtopic)

Will be finishing off all characters that don't have a page with 1.0.8 data, then I'll go back and update all the characters done prior to 1.0.8 with current data.

I've got someone helping me now, so it should speed up considerably.
Yo! Wonderful post. Thank you very much for your work on that website.
 
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