Villager CAN Kill! *Watering Can Demonstration*

[Mtn64]

Hello, fellow villager friends. I'm sure all of you know Villagers infamous tree. It sprouts in seconds, it kills in milliseconds. Yatta yatta.
I'm not here to talk about that though. I'm here to talk about
THE WATERING CAN OF JUSTICE!
The watering can replaces the sapling after planted. It pushes foes just a smidge, but DOES NOT BREAK FREE FALL.
What does this mean?
This means EVERY TIME THE OPPONENT DOES NOT SWEETSPOT THE LEDGE and is in fastfall, you have an opportunity to watering can.
Keep in mind characters like Rosalina will be much harder if not impossible to can than characters like Marth.
Let me show you two demonstrations of my many can kills
Demonstration One: VS NESS
Watering Can Demonstration - VS NESS!: https://youtu.be/BWiuDbdW5TU

The reason I decided to showcase this was to show setups to get the opponent into a position like this. Yes, you can indeed just pocket the pkthunder. This video is ONLY posted because of the spot it put an opponent in.
Demonstration Two: VS SHULK
Watering Can demonstration - VS Shulk: https://youtu.be/3Z4Nk-UYzJY

Didn't sweet spot? Not enough time to fsmash? No problem! Snipe an easy kill with your trusty can.

Bait the opponent into recovering high to dodge an fsmash, spring the can. React to a missed sweet spot, spring the can.
Let me know what you think about this.

 

[ScrubCakes]

Great post! But you posted the same video twice, didn't know if it was intentional or not.

 

[JohnnyB]

This has been known for a while but it seems like it's rarely put into practice. With defauat timber most players would much rather have the axe...*but* with timber counter you will almost always have the watering can. Techniques like this become important to take advantage of villagers full moveset in that case.

I'm really interested in seeing what else can be done with the watering can. It seems to be the least understood move in villagers moveset.

 

[Mtn64]

Great post! But you posted the same video twice, didn't know if it was intentional or not.

Woops! Fixed.

This has been known for a while but it seems like it's rarely put into practice. With defauat timber most players would much rather have the axe...*but* with timber counter you will almost always have the watering can. Techniques like this become important to take advantage of villagers full moveset in that case.

I'm really interested in seeing what else can be done with the watering can. It seems to be the least understood move in villagers moveset.

Thanks for your input! I can totally see the can being useful in certain situations. It requires knowledge of where it can be applied, but it can totally net you kills!
The Axe can sometimes be preferred (usually) BUT if you can bait characters like pit to recover too high, there are spots you can can.
The custom trip sapling also removes the viability of Axe and so can will be useful there.
I totally use the tree for the sprout and try to utilize the Axe to its full potential without spacing it incorrectly (air dodge reads, trades, etc) as well, but the can is just one of many villagers tools to net him/her more kills!
Plus... Imagine canning someone in a grand final tourney.
Chat hype to the max.

 

[Nintendoge_]

Villager truly is the master edge guarder.

This will be extremely helpful when fighting against people who are familiar with the villager matchup, as they generally attempt to recover high.
Thanks for posting this

 

[Comet Knight]

I've actually stopped a Ness mid PKT2 with water bucket mid air (I jumped down). It was just yesterday actually. xD I've love to send a replay.

 

[AnchorTea]

I keep trying to gimp with the watering can, but I can never exactly perform it. Practice makes perfect tho...

 

[Mtn64]

I keep trying to gimp with the watering can, but I can never exactly perform it. Practice makes perfect tho...

You mainly want all of the water particles to hit them.
Practice on like shulk, then try to gimp falco with it.
When water canning, always do it when they're in free fall. Never attempt to can a recovery (unless its ness)

Villager truly is the master edge guarder.

This will be extremely helpful when fighting against people who are familiar with the villager matchup, as they generally attempt to recover high.
Thanks for posting this

Of course dude! Practice with it a lot, I've been putting in a lot of lab time to villagers misc tech (pivot Axe, one cuts, pivot grabs, jab gimps, etc) and they all seem to have a place they fit in every now and then.

I've actually stopped a Ness mid PKT2 with water bucket mid air (I jumped down). It was just yesterday actually. xD I've love to send a replay.

Yeah dude, upload it and send it to me! I'll add it here so people can see another example of it.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Is it just me or does using the watering can on Ness look more consistent than trying to pocket his up B? (When he is trying to recover from below or from the side). Watering can appears active longer than the pocket so more room for error

 

[Mtn64]

Is it just me or does using the watering can on Ness look more consistent than trying to pocket his up B? (When he is trying to recover from below or from the side). Watering can appears active longer than the pocket so more room for error

Actually I noticed this too, and I use can over pocket if I'm in front of ness. As long as one or two water units hit he dies.

 

[COLINBG]

Is it just me or does using the watering can on Ness look more consistent than trying to pocket his up B? (When he is trying to recover from below or from the side). Watering can appears active longer than the pocket so more room for error

But it's still easy to land the Pocket, and I'd rather have a PK Thunder pocketed than nothing.

Anyway, it's indeed an interesting move. It's basically like a 's Hydro Pump or a 's Fludd, but with a shorter/less powerful hitbox, that you don't have to charge and that doesn't put you in free fall, right?

 

[erico9001]

In that situation against Shulk, a bowling ball would have killed too. It may be nice for vs. Ness, but that's one instance so far.
It could be possible that the watering can could be used to knock people off of the edge after their up B like Shulk's hurtbox in this video (idk who else this works on besides Kirby though):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTMRbWlZ5Qw

Super Timber has a larger watering can with a long range of water that can actually push people off-stage, so you might get more use with that.

 

[Mtn64]

In that situation against Shulk, a bowling ball would have killed too. It may be nice for vs. Ness, but that's one instance so far.
It could be possible that the watering can could be used to knock people off of the edge after their up B like Shulk's hurtbox in this video (idk who else this works on besides Kirby though):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTMRbWlZ5Qw

Super Timber has a larger watering can with a long range of water that can actually push people off-stage, so you might get more use with that.

Again, these are just two examples. I've been able to bait falcos into recovering over ledge to avoid fsmash and can them. And the shulk one was an example of how to hit the can in general.

Having to block and then OoS the FSmash isn't necessarily as fast as can either, and water can push in situations fsmash won't hit in.

In an edgeguard situation, the can has the capability of killing any free falling opponent that doesn't have much forward momentum (beginning of free falls.) Bowling ball kills anyone under the stage and in its radius.

Also, watering canning ness is able to be done consistently.
This isn't a compilation of water can kills, this is a demonstration on some of the possible ways it can be used (see also: original post)

But it's still easy to land the Pocket, and I'd rather have a PK Thunder pocketed than nothing.

Anyway, it's indeed an interesting move. It's basically like a 's Hydro Pump or a 's Fludd, but with a shorter/less powerful hitbox, that you don't have to charge and that doesn't put you in free fall, right?

Pretty much. That's exactly what it is. Just undervalued because of its hitbox.

 

[erico9001]

No need to be so defensive...

Again, these are just two examples. I've been able to bait falcos into recovering over ledge to avoid fsmash and can them. And the shulk one was an example of how to hit the can in general.

Yes, I am just trying to brainstorm what other characters this is good against. Speaking of that, while it has no use over bowling ball in the video against Shulk, suppose now that Shulk has not used his jump, and he was at a lower percent. Now, the watering can is useful, because Shulk is dead at that point.

In an edgeguard situation, the can has the capability of killing any free falling opponent that doesn't have much forward momentum (beginning of free falls.) Bowling ball kills anyone under the stage and in its radius.

Well, to grab the edge, the opponent must go below it (ie. be susceptible to bowling balls as well).

Also, watering canning ness is able to be done consistently.

I already acknowledge its use in the post you respond to.

Anyways, any thoughts on that Kirby video or using Super Timber's watering can?

 

[Mtn64]

@ erico9001
In terms of the video, I can see can killing Kirby similarly. My only concern is if Kirby's recovery cuts through the water units.
In response to using Super Timbers can, its just a longer lasting superpower can. I don't think it warrants losing Counter Timber (trip sap) and probably won't be chosen for the watering cans push. Possibly against certain MUs the better can would have a much easier time killing?

 

[flying_tortoise]

But it's still easy to land the Pocket, and I'd rather have a PK Thunder pocketed than nothing.

I prefer the idea of overjumping to the location Ness is going to end up after his double jump and using the watering can and just fall downwards (b/c it lasts long I don't have to worry about when to use it so much, unlike the pocket) because at the very least you push Ness farther away, and then by pushing him away hopefully the remaining water droplets can take out Ness' Up B. With this way I can imagine that you can be too early or too late and you'll still be able to push Ness.

Playing Fow on his stream, a good Ness knows that Villagers want to use the pocket, and will mixup their recovery. Changing where they double jump to, means you will have a hard time predicting where they are going to go which isn't good because Pocket is only active a few frames. Also if you choose to wait on stage to figure out where he is going to end up, Ness will just recover from a farther distance so you can't reach in time to pull off the pocket and you'll get instant KO'd by him or he beats you to the stage and punishes your recovery.

Also he can delay his Up B so if you were careless to think he was going to Up B at a certain time you will miss, get caught in end lag, and get KO'd. Idk my brother is actually better at pocketing Ness' Up B than I am, so like you said pocket works. But I think (will try this next weekend cuz of school) the watering can mb more reliable

 

[COLINBG]

I prefer the idea of overjumping to the location Ness is going to end up after his double jump and using the watering can and just fall downwards (b/c it lasts long I don't have to worry about when to use it so much, unlike the pocket) because at the very least you push Ness farther away, and then by pushing him away hopefully the remaining water droplets can take out Ness' Up B. With this way I can imagine that you can be too early or too late and you'll still be able to push Ness.

Playing Fow on his stream, a good Ness knows that Villagers want to use the pocket, and will mixup their recovery. Changing where they double jump to, means you will have a hard time predicting where they are going to go which isn't good because Pocket is only active a few frames. Also if you choose to wait on stage to figure out where he is going to end up, Ness will just recover from a farther distance so you can't reach in time to pull off the pocket and you'll get instant KO'd by him or he beats you to the stage and punishes your recovery.

Also he can delay his Up B so if you were careless to think he was going to Up B at a certain time you will miss, get caught in end lag, and get KO'd. Idk my brother is actually better at pocketing Ness' Up B than I am, so like you said pocket works. But I think (will try this next weekend cuz of school) the watering can mb more reliable

I'm not sure if I understand your idea, but if Ness still has a second jump, I usually just Fair or Bair him until he's forced to UpB, and then I Pocket. It's kinda pointless to go for it before. The Fair pressure coupled with Lloids is great offstage, and there's only so much he can endure before UpB becomes his only option.

With Villager's recovery I don't see how you can die from a missed Pocket. Even if you miss it and end up below Ness, just recover into his PK Thunder; you'll take some damage but it'll nullify the attack, and kill him. This is something you can do since Villager's recovery is so versatile.

And against Ness you want to use the Pocket Plus because there's no advantages in using default Pocket. It's not like the little extra percents on PK Thunder from default Pocket is going to be game breaking. The Pocket Plus' range is really good, so as soon as you're anywhere near Ness when he UpB's, he's dead. That is when you play with customs.

I'm not saying the water can is a bad option, far from it, but since I have no problems pocketing his PK Thunder, might as well do that and have a free projectile. I admit I have never played a Ness of FOW's level before, so this is based on my experience so far, and I might be lacking a bit in the Ness MU. I'll definitely give the can a try though.

 

[Keeseman]

From what I've got from this thread, it seems like this is only really useful in the Ness MU... Granted, that is all I've really seen this used in so far. Has anyone else seen this being useful in other MUs? For example, does this work against Captain Falcon or Ganondorf's up-B? Does Falcon Dive/Dark Dive pass through this?

I could see this being useful in the Robin MU, mostly because of the delay on the second Elwind blast (especially on Soaring Elwind, which gives greater vertical recovery).

 

[flying_tortoise]

I'm not sure if I understand your idea, but if Ness still has a second jump, I usually just Fair or Bair him until he's forced to UpB, and then I Pocket. It's kinda pointless to go for it before. The Fair pressure coupled with Lloids is great offstage, and there's only so much he can endure before UpB becomes his only option.

With Villager's recovery I don't see how you can die from a missed Pocket. Even if you miss it and end up below Ness, just recover into his PK Thunder; you'll take some damage but it'll nullify the attack, and kill him. This is something you can do since Villager's recovery is so versatile.

And against Ness you want to use the Pocket Plus because there's no advantages in using default Pocket. It's not like the little extra percents on PK Thunder from default Pocket is going to be game breaking. The Pocket Plus' range is really good, so as soon as you're anywhere near Ness when he UpB's, he's dead. That is when you play with customs.

I'm not saying the water can is a bad option, far from it, but since I have no problems pocketing his PK Thunder, might as well do that and have a free projectile. I admit I have never played a Ness of FOW's level before, so this is based on my experience so far, and I might be lacking a bit in the Ness MU. I'll definitely give the can a try though.

mmk I was just talking about the pocket. Yah there are definately situations where the fair is better to use, but I don't think I've ever pulled off fair -> pocker.

Oh yah the Pocket Plus x) If we are talking customs then yah that definately wins
And yah I know you never said the watering can was bad x), but I was arguing why I think watering can has the potential to be the better option (With no customs, since I never use 'em...even in a customs tournament lol)

From what I've got from this thread, it seems like this is only really useful in the Ness MU... Granted, that is all I've really seen this used in so far. Has anyone else seen this being useful in other MUs? For example, does this work against Captain Falcon or Ganondorf's up-B? Does Falcon Dive/Dark Dive pass through this?

I could see this being useful in the Robin MU, mostly because of the delay on the second Elwind blast (especially on Soaring Elwind, which gives greater vertical recovery).

Basically any move that puts them into freefall like Mtn said.
I've done it against DP's side B (only works after their move has finished) or mb you could fair them (causing him to hit the pellet -> go up and into free fall and you can watering can (if i am right about DP going into freefall after attacking something)

With Ganon if they are above the ledge, in freefall after their UpB, I am not sure if weight matters in how far the watering can can push. But most likely you can push him far enough to not grab the ledge.

@ Mtn64 when in Falco's recovery did you use the can? after Up B im assuming?

 

[trevskeet]

Glad to see someone else studying the uses of the watering can! Like others have mentioned, it's pretty situational and there's probably a more reliable option, but nonetheless its still a possibility that'll make any foe gripe at the kill. Just wanted to add in, for now, that the momentum in both of Little Mac's recovery options (up+side B) can be easily inhibited by the can.

I'll post some replays when I'm able to of some times I've pulled it off. Happy gardening!

 

[Mtn64]

From what I've got from this thread, it seems like this is only really useful in the Ness MU... Granted, that is all I've really seen this used in so far. Has anyone else seen this being useful in other MUs? For example, does this work against Captain Falcon or Ganondorf's up-B? Does Falcon Dive/Dark Dive pass through this?

I could see this being useful in the Robin MU, mostly because of the delay on the second Elwind blast (especially on Soaring Elwind, which gives greater vertical recovery).

Couldn't you just can robin after the second elwind (excluding soaring elwind)
Robin doesn't have too much momentum going forward after elwind.
You can indeed can Ganondorf's upB and falcons UpB. It pushes much farther when they get in free fall, but you can do it regardless.
As for Ganondorf / Falcons Down B, if its in the air, I don't see why it can't push. As long as you aren't canning his foot you should be good. This isn't a FLUDD so its not likely you'd get a kill from down b.
In terms of matchup, its much easier to kill characters like marth than it is pit. Also, little Mac dies really easily to can, as if his recovery wasn't bad enough. Pretty much any character with mid decent recovery that stops moving / doesnt move very fast after their hurtbox. Again, it pushes free fall, and since it comes out fast you can block initial hurtbox and OoS it. If you see the opportunity, do it. If not, continue edge guarding.
Again, can kills are extremely situational. You'll get one or two max in a best of 5, and it only helps >half the roster
Being able to recognize when its your only possible kill option, or your easiest, is what's going to win you sets. As a Villager main, knowing all his/her tools is key. That's the main reason I posted this: most Villagers dismiss it as something useless, when in reality putting in >1 hour training time with can and experimenting a bit can net you games. (Net pun unintended)

 

[Keeseman]

Couldn't you just can robin after the second elwind (excluding soaring elwind)
Robin doesn't have too much momentum going forward after elwind.

That makes sense. I was just wondering if a gimp earlier on in their recovery would be more effective.

As for Ganondorf / Falcons Down B, if its in the air, I don't see why it can't push. As long as you aren't canning his foot you should be good. This isn't a FLUDD so its not likely you'd get a kill from down b.

Falcon Dive and Dark Dive are Falcon and Ganon's Up-B moves...

In any case, it's unlikely that a Falcon or Ganon player would use the down-B, either, as they have crazy bad end lag.

 

[Mtn64]

That makes sense. I was just wondering if a gimp earlier on in their recovery would be more effective.



Falcon Dive and Dark Dive are Falcon and Ganon's Up-B moves...

In any case, it's unlikely that a Falcon or Ganon player would use the down-B, either, as they have crazy bad end lag.

Oh. Whoops.
I honestly only know the name of Villagers specials and like random ones.
HAMMER FLIP!
I did a small amount of testing, it seems near the end of his recovery Ganondorf sticks his hand out and it counts as a hitbox, which means it breaks some of the water units. That means (could be wrong) unless timed right after the recovery, you can only stall him in the same location.

Anyways, I mainly want to start finding out all of the characters that can actually die to can. Characters like Rosalina are already crossed out.

So far I've confirmed:

So far I've gotten off but haven't confirmed:
(After UpB only)
(After UpB only) (After UpB only, during free fall) (After UpB only) (Tested on bot)(After UpB only)(After UpB only)

The reason I specify (UpB) is because these characters have alternate forms of recovery (pikas side b, docs down b, etc.)
If any other Villagers have insight on who it might work on or who you've gotten it off on, let me know

 

[Comet Knight]

Yeah dude, upload it and send it to me! I'll add it here so people can see another example of it.

Can I add your FC? I'll send it to you that way and you can record it and upload it. Just give me credit for doing the gimp.

 

[Mtn64]

Can I add your FC? I'll send it to you that way and you can record it and upload it. Just give me credit for doing the gimp.

Yeah, PM me!
Make sure this is 3ds version

 

[JohnnyB]

OK now the shiek thing has me really interested. Can it interrupt her from snapping to the ledge out of up B or just if she overshoots it? Everybody has a frame of vulnerability when they ledgesnap in this game but because of the way shieks teleport works maybe it can push her away before she snaps but after she is out of her up b?

Or would you just end up getting hit by her up b instead?

 

[Comet Knight]

Yeah, PM me!
Make sure this is 3ds version

OK I added you! I only have 3DS version right now soo yeah.

 

[Mtn64]

@ Mtn64 when in Falco's recovery did you use the can? after Up B im assuming?

Directly after the recovery (in free fall)

OK now the shiek thing has me really interested. Can it interrupt her from snapping to the ledge out of up B or just if she overshoots it? Everybody has a frame of vulnerability when they ledgesnap in this game but because of the way shieks teleport works maybe it can push her away before she snaps but after she is out of her up b?

Or would you just end up getting hit by her up b instead?

I haven't tried hitting her before her teleport but you might be able to push her.
You'd most definitely get hit by it but you might be able to push far enough? Needs testing.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Directly after the recovery (in free fall)

I was more wondering earlier if it was done after Falco's side B instead. But it doesn't make too much sense b/c he still has his Up B nor does he go into freefall from the side B. lol so nvm

 

[MJG]

Outside of what has been stated already, the watering can can be pretty useful vs linear recoveries.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

But it's still easy to land the Pocket, and I'd rather have a PK Thunder pocketed than nothing.

Anyway, it's indeed an interesting move. It's basically like a 's Hydro Pump or a 's Fludd, but with a shorter/less powerful hitbox, that you don't have to charge and that doesn't put you in free fall, right?

But it's more disrespectful than just pocketing PK thunder, everyone knows about that. When they guide the PK thunder and it goes right past them because you gave them the slightest nudge, you know they're salty.

 

[COLINBG]

But it's more disrespectful than just pocketing PK thunder, everyone knows about that. When they guide the PK thunder and it goes right past them because you gave them the slightest nudge, you know they're salty.

Guy's got a point

 

[JohnnyB]

I think the watering can clanks with PKT as well does it not? It makes it even better for gimping ness if it does.

 

[extremechiton]

I have a saved replay of me going deep off stage just to water can gimp a ganondorf. He tried to side b suicide me but the water pushed him back just enough so he couldnt grab me.

 

[Mtn64]

I think the watering can clanks with PKT as well does it not? It makes it even better for gimping ness if it does.

Yeah it does. One water unit = clank.

I have a saved replay of me going deep off stage just to water can gimp a ganondorf. He tried to side b suicide me but the water pushed him back just enough so he couldnt grab me.

Wiiu or 3ds?

 

[extremechiton]

Wii u
I just recorded the replay to upload to youtube later, i should have it viewable by tomorrow.

Yeah it does. One water unit = clank.

Wiiu or 3ds?

 

[dahuterschuter]

My watering can is filled with liquid disrespect.

 

[extremechiton]

Watercan gimp on ganondorf.
I have a few other demonstrations floating around somewhere

 

[Nintendoge_]

Nice gimp! I've been working on utilizing my water can a little more in battle, but I haven't had too much success. It's pretty funny to just push someone away with the windbox, though...

 

[extremechiton]

i scared this megaman into air dodging while i was using watering can. would have survived if he hadn't.