http://www.youtube.com/user/Blizzardish
so can people please critique the matches vs yedi
so can people please critique the matches vs yedi
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Videos -- IC vs. Falco
- Thread starter Kyu Puff
- Start date
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Edit -- I guess I could use some advice for spacing around falco's lasers and stuff like that. Keep in mind all of these are friendlies and I'm improvising a lot. 
Yedi wants advice from the falco's point of view. :D
Yedi wants advice from the falco's point of view. :D
Finch
Smash Lord
I watched match 9 and 10. Yedi is technical but all he was doing was lasering and then fsmashing to approach you and you were just sheilding it and not punishing. If he's approaching with lasers the easiest thing in the world to do is wavedash toward him and ftilt and one of you will hit him and then you can techchase or whatever. Fsmash is dealt with by desync blizzard, bair oos if you're facing the other way, retreating fair, or just spacing your own fsmash. Honestly it was really predictable every time and you probably should have caught on. Falco is hard because he's so fast and his lasers are really distracting but you have to pay attention and be smart and ICs can own him stupidly easily.
Also you seem to be really hyper and unsure of what exactly you want to do once you get a hit in. Try to end all of your combos on the stage with either a grab or a smash, rather than just another sloppy dash attack. And if you do a desync, make the most of it. I saw you iceblock chase once and not grab when he sheilded it. What was the point of doing it if you're not going to follow through?
Also you seem to be really hyper and unsure of what exactly you want to do once you get a hit in. Try to end all of your combos on the stage with either a grab or a smash, rather than just another sloppy dash attack. And if you do a desync, make the most of it. I saw you iceblock chase once and not grab when he sheilded it. What was the point of doing it if you're not going to follow through?
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
By the last two matches Yedi was frustrated and resorting to a stupid strategy that he joked about before. Honestly I know Falco is an easy match-up, and I don't have trouble with it at all. I could've easily ended every combo with a chaingrab or throw -> smash but I didn't because it was friendlies and he wanted to learn the match-up. You're right about the lasers, I think part of the problem is that I zone out and don't really focus on the timing of the lasers as much as the fact that I'm being lasered. I definitely ate too many of them.
I know how to end combos, and I wasn't unsure of what to do once I landed a hit. Maybe it's the matches you watched, maybe I didn't come off well in these matches at all, but I do know what I'm doing. Not that I don't appreciate your advice -- I'm not trying to be defensive -- but maybe I should've thought before asking for critique on these vids. I know it's hard to judge this kind of thing.
I know how to end combos, and I wasn't unsure of what to do once I landed a hit. Maybe it's the matches you watched, maybe I didn't come off well in these matches at all, but I do know what I'm doing. Not that I don't appreciate your advice -- I'm not trying to be defensive -- but maybe I should've thought before asking for critique on these vids. I know it's hard to judge this kind of thing.
Finch
Smash Lord
ok wow I watched the first two matches and it was clear that everything I said you already knew. Your ICs are better than mine so nvm. You guys are just playing dumb and lazy in the last matches.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
sorry I didn't mean to come off like that, you've given me good advice before and I hope I didn't sound like a ****... it's my fault for only putting friendlies up anyways. :/
Finch
Smash Lord
haha np you should have just said "don't watch the last matches." This reminds me how inconsistent my ICs are because I haven't been focusing on control lately just being smarter and playing sheik so I keep losing matches I know I can win because I just sit in my shield and mistime stuff and get owned. I've also completely forgotten how to fight spacies. I played hungrybox's mediocre fox last night and he beat me. 
LOL yea I was spamming fsmash but that's not what I usually do. I just didn't know how to approach ice climbers, i tried a few different things throughout the course of the matches like, shine and then jc grabbing after ever aerial, running up and just shine grabbing, trying to dair and behind the ICs shield then utilting, spamming lasers and just fsmashing when he comes in, dtilt. Nothing seemed to work. How do you propose i approach the match up? I really need help.
Finch
Smash Lord
I think as long as the ics are sitting in their shield falco can't really do anything. One thing to do is camp hardcore until they come out of their shield and try to hit you then hit them and deathcombo nana, although this can be very dangerous if you don't watch out for popo. A really good way to sneak hits in is to bait a utilt. It's basically a free fsmash. Once you get a hit in you should be able to do tons of damage to whatever climber you choose so I don't think this matchup is that bad for falco, just hard to adapt to. I don't play falco at all but that's my understanding from the other side.
Edit: I watched another match and I noticed that you're spacing your aerials wrong. A lot of spacies players lose to ICs at first because they get sheildgrabbed a lot. When you're shffling to approach ICs you want to make sure that 1. You're just out of shieldgrab range but still in shine range and 2. you shine after every aerial. You can just pillar their shield out of grab range and they can't do anything except roll away.
Edit: I watched another match and I noticed that you're spacing your aerials wrong. A lot of spacies players lose to ICs at first because they get sheildgrabbed a lot. When you're shffling to approach ICs you want to make sure that 1. You're just out of shieldgrab range but still in shine range and 2. you shine after every aerial. You can just pillar their shield out of grab range and they can't do anything except roll away.
Binx
Smash Master
I play against Falco a lot, and it seems to me like being in my shield just sucks, it doesn't take him long to wither it down and start poking, what can work is to angle your shield up, if falco aerials too early you get an easy shield grab, once they start doing the aerial late you can sneak in upsmash out of shield or short hopped nairs (make sure to fast fall and capitalize on the surprise, most people see you running and spot dodge, so I like to shield right before and grab afterwards)
Against worse falco's you don't even need to switch it up because they won't realize why they are being shield grabbed. Falco can get around this though by predicting you and doing it late or early, obviously you have to call when they want to aerial, if they do it later though you can still roll away without getting hurt, just makes sure to buffer it so the shine wont poke your raised shield.
Against worse falco's you don't even need to switch it up because they won't realize why they are being shield grabbed. Falco can get around this though by predicting you and doing it late or early, obviously you have to call when they want to aerial, if they do it later though you can still roll away without getting hurt, just makes sure to buffer it so the shine wont poke your raised shield.
true dat guys, imma start doing my aerials later or behind icies, I'll make a conscious effort never to get shield grabbed.
and finch what you said about baiting an uptilt works, i was able to do it a few times. Too bad it's not something I could rely on cause he doesn;t always utilt when i expect him to.
and finch what you said about baiting an uptilt works, i was able to do it a few times. Too bad it's not something I could rely on cause he doesn;t always utilt when i expect him to.
Binx
Smash Master
Mac, have you tried short hopping towards him and wavelanding backwards then going in for a grab after they do whatever? thats a way to punish his shield if you jump and he is to close to drill, the grab will miss if you did a good waveland, and you can basically grab him and forward throw him before he can do anything in that situation. Use it sparingly though.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Binx thanks for the tip, I always forget about tilting my shield. Is it possible to reposition your shield if he ends up hitting later (to avoid eating a shine shieldpoke)? Unfortunately this stuff has become habitual for me. :S
Binx
Smash Master
Umm, I'm not sure, usually by the time my Falco is drilling me, my shield has already been whittled down with other things, lasers, well spaced jabs, nairs and such. If you have a full shield you should be able to lower it, just makes sure its controlled so you don't accidentally spot dodge. I almost always roll though. Its not *safe* but its hard to punish with anything but more pressure.
I don't know if I have the reflexes to lower my shield, I guess its just reacting to the falcos height, if he hasn't started his drill start lowering it and hope lol.
Finally got around to watching these.
Against Link: Your main concern here is that you kind of run into most of his attacks. His u-tilt is deceptive and invites you in, particularly when he's facing away. There's a pretty easy way to solve that move; run into it intentionally and CC into grab. It wants to send you up so you barely move horizontally at all, and off a grab you can hurt Link really badly. Play this matchup a bit like you'd play a Peach--fake your punishments and get him to use laggier moves, then punish those instead.
This matchup is a little like fighting against Marth--you mostly want to use shorter wavedashes to avoid crashing into his attacks, then throw in longer ones to confuse his spacing. You'll get more chances to punish whiffed moves and better odds on getting inside when he doesn't expect it.
His projectiles are harder to deal with. It mostly comes down to judging the arcs of his bombs and guessing his boomerang tosses. If you have Nana light shield to stop them farther away, you can make bombs bounce up and create confusion, or you can simply keep the boomerangs from hitting your toes. Since Link will typically try to move in after he boomerangs your shield, this also lets you mess up his judgment on what moves to follow up with.
In short, don't run into his moves
Against Falco: I'm actually surprisingly *bad* at this matchup; I typically win because Falco players almost always give away at least one hit per stock and I just try to capitalize hard. They also seem fixated on staying off the ground and letting me u-air them, when if they stayed low and laser camped I'd be more screwed.
Enough about me, though. I still believe that it helps (at mid range) to wavedash into lasers and smash; you absorb the laser impact and let Nana slide on through with her attack. Nobody else seems to like this though.
Also, you WD d-smash a *lot.* Remember, if you have an opening your grab comes out just as fast, and gives you more damage opportunity. If you're by yourself and Falco is at low percent, you'd get the same damage using an u-throw or f-throw (both do about 11 percent, same as a fresh SoPo d-smash) and you'd get more follow up. However, if the Falco is at like, 80 percent or he's just near the edge, d-smash away.
I also think it's advantageous to get as many Nana blizzards going as you can; getting the Falco to trip up, even momentarily, eliminates a lot of his momentum and can get you the clutch dash-attack or grab to end a stock.
Which leads me into the next point: always end his stocks when you grab, period. At really low percents when he can wiggle out of stuff, d-throw u-smash lets you chain into another grab; b-throw lets you tech chase (b-throw with Nana using a short-hopped iceblock, for instance), u-throw gets you a dash attack into another grab, there's d-throw d-air when he's at mid percents and can't wiggle, edge chaingrab, d-throw chaingrabs if you can trick him into DI'ing into you, and u-throw f-smash for screwing up his DI. There are also platform tech-chases to let you land u-air, b-air, f-air, grabs or d-smashes.
D-throw blizzard is cool--pun intended--but escapeable. I don't know if you were doing it intentionally or not, since you could have been accidentally throwing when trying to make Nana blizzard. In any event, you probably shouldn't do it--he'll be DI'ing away to get out of your CGs anyhow, and then he'll start mashing jump or shine and might get away. Take no risks on your grab combos! Unless you just tried it because it was a friendly, in which case feel free to mess around as much as you like.
For Falco's f-smash, you *should* be able to roll through it if you can make it hit Nana's light shield first. I'll check data....
F-smash lasts 39 frames (too short, IMO) and hits on frame 12; your roll lasts 31 frames. Add in the stun on Nana's shield and you'd have more than enough time to dash attack or smash him. Alternatively, the smash's hitbox ends on frame 21 leaving you with 18 frames to punish, which is enough time to dash attack him if you can just get away in time. You could also hit him with an aerial (f-air or b-air preferably) and grab would be neat but it's harder to space
A bigger problem is Falco's d-tilt--high shield stun, good vertical KO power, only lasts 29 frames. If Falcos ever catch on and start abusing this move us IC players will be in big trouble It's got about 19 dead frames (IASA on 28 so he can shine on frame 29) to punish so if he misses (and you're ready for it) you're fine. Otherwise I think the best way to deal with it is to get away.
Like I said though, I'm not as good at this matchup as I should be; Falco players tend to give away their matches through their own errors and I just DI to survive in the meantime. And don't forget to screw up l-cancels and fast-falls with light-shield tricks,, because that seems to work on *everybody*
Against Link: Your main concern here is that you kind of run into most of his attacks. His u-tilt is deceptive and invites you in, particularly when he's facing away. There's a pretty easy way to solve that move; run into it intentionally and CC into grab. It wants to send you up so you barely move horizontally at all, and off a grab you can hurt Link really badly. Play this matchup a bit like you'd play a Peach--fake your punishments and get him to use laggier moves, then punish those instead.
This matchup is a little like fighting against Marth--you mostly want to use shorter wavedashes to avoid crashing into his attacks, then throw in longer ones to confuse his spacing. You'll get more chances to punish whiffed moves and better odds on getting inside when he doesn't expect it.
His projectiles are harder to deal with. It mostly comes down to judging the arcs of his bombs and guessing his boomerang tosses. If you have Nana light shield to stop them farther away, you can make bombs bounce up and create confusion, or you can simply keep the boomerangs from hitting your toes. Since Link will typically try to move in after he boomerangs your shield, this also lets you mess up his judgment on what moves to follow up with.
In short, don't run into his moves
Against Falco: I'm actually surprisingly *bad* at this matchup; I typically win because Falco players almost always give away at least one hit per stock and I just try to capitalize hard. They also seem fixated on staying off the ground and letting me u-air them, when if they stayed low and laser camped I'd be more screwed.
Enough about me, though. I still believe that it helps (at mid range) to wavedash into lasers and smash; you absorb the laser impact and let Nana slide on through with her attack. Nobody else seems to like this though.
Also, you WD d-smash a *lot.* Remember, if you have an opening your grab comes out just as fast, and gives you more damage opportunity. If you're by yourself and Falco is at low percent, you'd get the same damage using an u-throw or f-throw (both do about 11 percent, same as a fresh SoPo d-smash) and you'd get more follow up. However, if the Falco is at like, 80 percent or he's just near the edge, d-smash away.
I also think it's advantageous to get as many Nana blizzards going as you can; getting the Falco to trip up, even momentarily, eliminates a lot of his momentum and can get you the clutch dash-attack or grab to end a stock.
Which leads me into the next point: always end his stocks when you grab, period. At really low percents when he can wiggle out of stuff, d-throw u-smash lets you chain into another grab; b-throw lets you tech chase (b-throw with Nana using a short-hopped iceblock, for instance), u-throw gets you a dash attack into another grab, there's d-throw d-air when he's at mid percents and can't wiggle, edge chaingrab, d-throw chaingrabs if you can trick him into DI'ing into you, and u-throw f-smash for screwing up his DI. There are also platform tech-chases to let you land u-air, b-air, f-air, grabs or d-smashes.
D-throw blizzard is cool--pun intended--but escapeable. I don't know if you were doing it intentionally or not, since you could have been accidentally throwing when trying to make Nana blizzard. In any event, you probably shouldn't do it--he'll be DI'ing away to get out of your CGs anyhow, and then he'll start mashing jump or shine and might get away. Take no risks on your grab combos! Unless you just tried it because it was a friendly, in which case feel free to mess around as much as you like.
For Falco's f-smash, you *should* be able to roll through it if you can make it hit Nana's light shield first. I'll check data....
F-smash lasts 39 frames (too short, IMO
) and hits on frame 12; your roll lasts 31 frames. Add in the stun on Nana's shield and you'd have more than enough time to dash attack or smash him. Alternatively, the smash's hitbox ends on frame 21 leaving you with 18 frames to punish, which is enough time to dash attack him if you can just get away in time. You could also hit him with an aerial (f-air or b-air preferably) and grab would be neat but it's harder to space A bigger problem is Falco's d-tilt--high shield stun, good vertical KO power, only lasts 29 frames. If Falcos ever catch on and start abusing this move us IC players will be in big trouble
It's got about 19 dead frames (IASA on 28 so he can shine on frame 29) to punish so if he misses (and you're ready for it) you're fine. Otherwise I think the best way to deal with it is to get away.Like I said though, I'm not as good at this matchup as I should be; Falco players tend to give away their matches through their own errors and I just DI to survive in the meantime. And don't forget to screw up l-cancels and fast-falls with light-shield tricks,, because that seems to work on *everybody*
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Thanks for the advice. :D
I did notice I kept wding into his moves, but I couldn't figure out why. He would do nothing a surprising amount of the time so I probably should have been waiting for him to move and playing passively. What do you usually do once you grab Link?
The Link player tends overuses u-tilt because it catches me out of my wavedash, and Nana never DIs it. :S CCing is a great idea.
Thanks for noting the d-smash. I -used- to overuse grab (replace every wd d-smash or jab with a grab) and I consciously forced myself to get out of that habit. I guess it's turned into another bad habit. :X
I have tried wavedashing through Falco's lasers, I'm just not very good at it. His laser sometimes catches me before I really get any movement from the wavedash or it stops my momentum, and it's hard to judge where to place the smash or dash attack. It's something I need to work on. I do like dash dancing away and towards him in order to dodge the laser, and shorthopping a blizzard towards him seems to work fairly well also.
I should probably update the first post... There are some newer vids vs Falco on my youtube account (this is the first of ten). Just wondering because you mentioned making better use of my grab combos, and that's one thing I've gotten infinitely better at since then.
I did notice I kept wding into his moves, but I couldn't figure out why. He would do nothing a surprising amount of the time so I probably should have been waiting for him to move and playing passively. What do you usually do once you grab Link?
The Link player tends overuses u-tilt because it catches me out of my wavedash, and Nana never DIs it. :S CCing is a great idea.
Thanks for noting the d-smash. I -used- to overuse grab (replace every wd d-smash or jab with a grab) and I consciously forced myself to get out of that habit. I guess it's turned into another bad habit. :X
I have tried wavedashing through Falco's lasers, I'm just not very good at it. His laser sometimes catches me before I really get any movement from the wavedash or it stops my momentum, and it's hard to judge where to place the smash or dash attack. It's something I need to work on. I do like dash dancing away and towards him in order to dodge the laser, and shorthopping a blizzard towards him seems to work fairly well also.
I should probably update the first post... There are some newer vids vs Falco on my youtube account (this is the first of ten). Just wondering because you mentioned making better use of my grab combos, and that's one thing I've gotten infinitely better at since then.
All of this is great to know. Can you punish f-smash with wd or f-air out of shield?For Falco's f-smash, you *should* be able to roll through it if you can make it hit Nana's light shield first. I'll check data....
F-smash lasts 39 frames (too short, IMO
A bigger problem is Falco's d-tilt--high shield stun, good vertical KO power, only lasts 29 frames. If Falcos ever catch on and start abusing this move us IC players will be in big trouble It's got about 19 dead frames (IASA on 28 so he can shine on frame 29) to punish so if he misses (and you're ready for it) you're fine. Otherwise I think the best way to deal with it is to get away.
Ye s!A Bigger Problem Is Falco's D-tilt--high Shield Stun, Good Vertical Ko Power, Only Lasts 29 Frames. If Falcos Ever Catch On And Start Abusing This Move Us Ic Players Will Be In Big Trouble
Yes! What? Oh God I hope Falco players aren't reading this
Umm... well, I also have trouble wavedashing through Falco's lasers, actually; it has something to do with the shield stun. Fortunately you won't have *any* if Nana's light shield catches the laser early. Also, I was just messing around with forward+b out of shield, and if you anticipate another laser coming, you could (maybe?) use the solo squall de-sync to get Nana's blizzard out there.
(Edit: Also, just watched an old vid of Chu versus Shizwiz... and the really obvious answer to lasers is just to jump out of your shield with iceblocks. If it forces him high, you can possibly land u-airs or tilts, if he stays low and shields you get a bit of space to wavedash in. I'm actually wondering what happens if you can get Nana to fire the iceblock and get yourself hit by the laser... waveland in and if he shields, get a grab? Could be tricky. I'll mess around with that too...)
I also noticed in your vid that you did an u-air out laser stun once; if I had better reflexes I'd try to take advantage of that myself, though I don't know many places it would be applicable. B-air would work if the lasers didn't turn you around... d-air might be good if you're close... more stuff to look at.
As for the f-smash, I don't think so. WD out of shield takes about 13-14 frames before you can execute, leaving you with that PLUS startup lag on whatever move, leaving you with your jab at 17 frames. Falco's move ends by then, and that doesn't count shield stun; the Falco would have to mistime his next move, not CC the jab, and not get away from the follow up. Don't think it'll work except against a bad Falco. If he tries f-smashing again afterwards you'd have an extra twelve frames to do SOMETHING, probably f-tilt... I think the shield stun would be too high though.
I thought about f-air, but it's a terrible option out of shield overall. It has 19 frames of startup; in fact, if you SHFFL an f-air as fast as possible you only get a hitbox at the top of your IC and can never hit a grounded opponent (unless you crossed up Bowser or DK or Ganon or something).
On the other hand, if you shffl'ed an f-air going BACKWARDS out of your shield, the slide from the smash and the retreating might give you the spacing to punish an aggressive follow up. If he smashed again, for instance, he might stick his foot into the hammer; maybe you could catch him out of running d-air? If he retreated you wouldn't get anything, but you weren't punishing it anyways... try that out? I will, next chance I get... most (good) Falcos will only f-smash when you're near the edge though, so your shield would just push you off the stage anyhow.
**shrug**
Umm... well, I also have trouble wavedashing through Falco's lasers, actually; it has something to do with the shield stun. Fortunately you won't have *any* if Nana's light shield catches the laser early. Also, I was just messing around with forward+b out of shield, and if you anticipate another laser coming, you could (maybe?) use the solo squall de-sync to get Nana's blizzard out there.
(Edit: Also, just watched an old vid of Chu versus Shizwiz... and the really obvious answer to lasers is just to jump out of your shield with iceblocks. If it forces him high, you can possibly land u-airs or tilts, if he stays low and shields you get a bit of space to wavedash in. I'm actually wondering what happens if you can get Nana to fire the iceblock and get yourself hit by the laser... waveland in and if he shields, get a grab? Could be tricky. I'll mess around with that too...)
I also noticed in your vid that you did an u-air out laser stun once; if I had better reflexes I'd try to take advantage of that myself, though I don't know many places it would be applicable. B-air would work if the lasers didn't turn you around... d-air might be good if you're close... more stuff to look at.
As for the f-smash, I don't think so. WD out of shield takes about 13-14 frames before you can execute, leaving you with that PLUS startup lag on whatever move, leaving you with your jab at 17 frames. Falco's move ends by then, and that doesn't count shield stun; the Falco would have to mistime his next move, not CC the jab, and not get away from the follow up. Don't think it'll work except against a bad Falco. If he tries f-smashing again afterwards you'd have an extra twelve frames to do SOMETHING, probably f-tilt... I think the shield stun would be too high though.
I thought about f-air, but it's a terrible option out of shield overall. It has 19 frames of startup; in fact, if you SHFFL an f-air as fast as possible you only get a hitbox at the top of your IC and can never hit a grounded opponent (unless you crossed up Bowser or DK or Ganon or something).
On the other hand, if you shffl'ed an f-air going BACKWARDS out of your shield, the slide from the smash and the retreating might give you the spacing to punish an aggressive follow up. If he smashed again, for instance, he might stick his foot into the hammer; maybe you could catch him out of running d-air? If he retreated you wouldn't get anything, but you weren't punishing it anyways... try that out? I will, next chance I get... most (good) Falcos will only f-smash when you're near the edge though, so your shield would just push you off the stage anyhow.
**shrug**