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VGBC aMSa will start using Roy!
- Thread starter Gidy
- Start date
kingPiano
Smash Ace
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I think someone with AmSa's instincts and lightning fast reflexes would be able to dominate with Roy, but that would once again be the player over the character.
If he himself is actually going to play Roy I hope he unveils some type of new tech or playstyle with Roy, that would be quite awesome.
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If he himself is actually going to play Roy I hope he unveils some type of new tech or playstyle with Roy, that would be quite awesome.
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Gidy
Smash Lord
Nobody is going to use Roy and make a difference and thats why he said "but who's next? I think. Roy" because he will be the next person to develop him. aMSa will use him, but not replace his Yoshi. Thats why he said he won't ONLY use him
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RetroGamersGuru
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I'm not going to assume that his message is implying that he will play Roy. And his moves and playstyle are actually pretty established for a low tier (Same thing with Zelda, she did start out basically as a mid tier belive it or not). It would be amazing if there is more to change him, but the main reason that Yoshi just shot straight up is because the problem with his tech and tools was to use them consistently. Amsa proved that it's humanly possible to consistently use Yoshi's tools at a high level to reap the benefits. In contrast, Roy's problem is a lack of tools and setups. I would think that what has to be done is to figure out setups to take advantage of the reverse tipper mechanic and to find more opportunities for punishes based on Dtilt. Other than that, I guess just utilize the platforms better. His recovery is pretty much not able to be fixed with tech since his up b is more horizontal based; even the side b stall is not as helpful as Marth's.
kingPiano
Smash Ace
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IMO the interesting thing about Roy is that I don't think he actually needs all the tools and options when in the hands of a player with such reflexes and intuition as AmSa. His go-to high damage moves come out rather fast for being so disjointed (Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, Dtilt, DED, Flare Blade), he is a ground based character and I see the potential for a great player to come along and optimize him on a high level.
Yoshi has always been a character that the high level players talked about being underrated. Roy however is pretty much where he belongs just based on how easy he is to combo/CG and beat in the air (and he's not unique just a nerfed grounded clone of Marth). Yoshi doesn't have either of those problems (but he does have a lot of other problems that Roy doesn't have).
Can't really see any new meta or even techniques coming out via AmSa IF he is actually to play him, but I'd be very excited to see how he plays Roy.
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RetroGamersGuru
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Oh I do agree. If he does play him, it could be interesting. But Roy's problems basically gimp him much of the time while Yoshi (other than no good up b recovery option) isn't too bothered by problems like that. But Amsa does still need tools and options (think of all the good and abusable techs that Yoshi can use that Amsa optimized).
Freakanoid
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https://www.twitter.com/PewPewU/status/587815226902351872
PewPewU will be playing Roy at the Foundry tonight to test Amsa's theory, so be sure to catch it.
PewPewU will be playing Roy at the Foundry tonight to test Amsa's theory, so be sure to catch it.
kingPiano
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Wow, that's awesome thanks for the heads up.
I wonder if PPU has actually put in any time with Roy or if he's just going to wing it.
Is it to be streamed on ShowdownSmash?
PewPewU said he considers Roy one of his secondaries. Source: his stream last night. I also watched him combo a CPU for half an hour and seems to know what to do differently from Marth.
kingPiano
Smash Ace
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Well that's awesome I had never seen him use it in bracket. I always find it odd when Marth mains say they secondary Roy, they are just way too similar and Roy basically has the same MU spread as Marth but worse on all fronts.
RetroGamersGuru
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Welp, the fact that he knows Roy and lost overall (like most have thought, but he made it to winners quarters which is a basically a victory for Roy) shows just how much potential Roy still has. Besides, many players were drunk, and some of the good players were sandbagging alongside PPU, so it just hurts Roy's chances even more. He's our boy, but Amsa might want to research the underdeveloped characters more before making such claims in public.
RetroGamersGuru
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Oh I still respect his opinion. It's just I don't completely agree yet. I'm just wanting to be proven wrong by showing on how underdeveloped he is since Yoshi's main problem before Amsa was having a player that would consistently use Yoshi's discovered tools along with his movement. Roy has more problems than Yoshi does. Roy does have good ground movement, and his fastfall can help him touch the ground again. However, his moveset doesn't compliment his other mechanics as the fourth fastest falling character in the game. For example, Marth's recovery is already not the best considering that most of the mixups come from having a double jump, and he has to stall in the air with dancing blade to get back most of the time (not to mention the Marth slayer edgeguards are brutal). In the case of Roy, he does the same thing, except the fast fall makes it even harder to return to the stage, and his Up B is more focused on horizontal range (and even then, the ratio of Marth's vertical Up B to Roy's horizontal Up B still indicates how much further Marth goes). Another thing, Roy's reverse tipper mechanic results in Roy having to come close to the opponent to get any good rewards and conversions, but the moves are laggier, meaning that if the opponent baits out a move like he would Marth, Roy is toast. Roy mainly has some Uair juggles, but he doesn't have many combos other than that since his moves send the opponent too far away.
Besides, most actual low tiers are there for a reason. Zelda used to be a high to mid tier character as a matter of fact, but she is too slow. She can't get much out of her moveset other than Dsmash, Fair, and Bair. Donkey Kong used to be a counter to Fox based off of one combo that they now know how to avoid. Now he has trouble considering how DK's options are based on where he's facing. Bowser is too slow, and he barely has any disjoints. Pichu is too light, and his most of his moveset damages him without giving much reward, leading into Nair strings. Mewtwo is too gimmicky, and he's very light. Kirby is light, has two bad throws, has bad aerial mobility, and doesn't have an answer to pressure. In terms of underrated low tier character, IMO it's G&W, Link, and Young Link. Roy needs Sethlon honestly.
CAUP
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Yeah, I just really want to believe. Roy is SOO bad. I placed him last on a tier list I did last year (I'm not as ignorant anymore but he is still garbage and I think worse than people think).
But if aMSa say he has potential, I feel like there HAS to be something to Roy. Why would he make a statement like that?
Also, I would like to say that I've always thought Yoshi is way better than he was ranked on the tier list. The first time I played as him, I was like "what the heck??? This character is solid!" Amsa hasn't gone as far as he has because of parrying but because of a decent character and incredible fundamentals. Roy isn't really a decent character but amsa still has incredible fundamentals and probably has a trick up his sleeve
(this post was not well composed, in a hurry)
But if aMSa say he has potential, I feel like there HAS to be something to Roy. Why would he make a statement like that?
Also, I would like to say that I've always thought Yoshi is way better than he was ranked on the tier list. The first time I played as him, I was like "what the heck??? This character is solid!" Amsa hasn't gone as far as he has because of parrying but because of a decent character and incredible fundamentals. Roy isn't really a decent character but amsa still has incredible fundamentals and probably has a trick up his sleeve
(this post was not well composed, in a hurry)
RetroGamersGuru
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Yeah, I want to believe too. But this is one of those cases that Nintendo has of creating a newcomer character that is either really good or really bad (most of the mid tiers actually are veterans with the exception of Ganondorf and the Mario clone: Doc). It's ironic how there are two FE characters with similar moveset said come out to be complete opposites. At least we have PM in order to experiment and learn the best ways to design these characters without changing them in playstyle. I still can't think of a character that had completely change playstyles yet.
I don't understand the reasoning behind Amsa picking Roy as the example, but I'd like to know just as much as everyone else. Watch him be a hard counter to a mid tier matchup that Yoshi has a hard time in.
Yoshi's tools are pretty good, and most of them transferred from 64. The combination of a very fundamental player along with a solid character created the recent turnouts in tournaments. I'm just glad that the dream of a good Melee Yoshi is realized. It's fun to see something new from a character especially as rare. And because of Amsa, there are some more Yoshi players that are wanting to improve with the character. It'll be interesting who will be the next realized dream storyline will be. I've chosen the Link path to follow, and I support everyone who wants to bring their character to full potential. I'll just be concerned if you expect to win EVO with Kirby for example, but prove me wrong. Even prove the sell outs wrong and win EVO with Peach cause she's still in this.
Gidy
Smash Lord
RetroGamersGuru
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I don't know what you exactly are asking for, but I'm saying that he's a mid-tier and is basically a clone of Mario. That's not a bad thing since clones can lead to different playstyles. Look at Fox and Falco for example.Doc?
Darklink401
Smash Master
Roy, huh?
I mean I'd be down for that, Roy's one of my secondaries
Also he is most certainly our boy.
I mean I'd be down for that, Roy's one of my secondaries
Also he is most certainly our boy.
Gidy
Smash Lord
Im saying in terms of viability, like your last paragraph talked about. Its fine though.
RetroGamersGuru
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Oh, I gotcha. IMO both Doc and Mario are still viable characters. The problem is that the best Doc moved on to Sheik along with the other primary ones moving on to the top 8 characters. I think he was overrated in thinking that he was the best of the mid-tiers, but he's still a viable character. He just needs the right player again. Mario is slightly showing him up with two very good Mario mains (albeit the only known Mario mains, but still).
Keep in mind that I'm referring to top 8 at a major or national with viability if the character is on his/her own. If you are a dual-maining characters, then there is more to take into account (which I thought it was the way to go anyways before the top players basically said that we should do the same, unless you want to dual-main a mid and low tier to force you to play the mid tier for some reason).
Just saw this post and watched two of his matches. Made me happy.
Benny P
Smash Journeyman
gettin hyyype
Darklink401
Smash Master
Well Roy can combo dtilt into aerial neutral B on spacies at around 130% and they can't come back to the ledge...
Aside from that, he can chaingrab spacies, and I guess sweetspot fsmash off of that, something Marth can't do (I think) off of the chaingrab.
Not much else that I can think of in his bag of tricks.
Dtilt is definitely a part of it, whatever 'it' is tho.
Aside from that, he can chaingrab spacies, and I guess sweetspot fsmash off of that, something Marth can't do (I think) off of the chaingrab.
Not much else that I can think of in his bag of tricks.
Dtilt is definitely a part of it, whatever 'it' is tho.
kingPiano
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Anyone who has played Roy competitively and at a high level knows that Roy is all about those hard reads to finish stocks. Hard read F-smashes.
I like to go even further and use hard read counters to end an opponents stock. It's a ridiculous thing to try, but if you have a fast reaction time and are really good at reading your opponents habits Roy becomes the most fun character to use.
Of course D-tilts and grabs are just the foundation that helps your opponent prepare for blast off
I like to go even further and use hard read counters to end an opponents stock. It's a ridiculous thing to try, but if you have a fast reaction time and are really good at reading your opponents habits Roy becomes the most fun character to use.
Of course D-tilts and grabs are just the foundation that helps your opponent prepare for blast off
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I mean, just in terms of having a neutral game that is practically on par with Marth's, he definitely has potential. People have not yet found a way to overcome his blinding weaknesses though ...
Darklink401
Smash Master
Upthrow at 180+% tho.Anyone who has played Roy competitively and at a high level knows that Roy is all about those hard reads to finish stocks. Hard read F-smashes.
I like to go even further and use hard read counters to end an opponents stock. It's a ridiculous thing to try, but if you have a fast reaction time and are really good at reading your opponents habits Roy becomes the most fun character to use.
Of course D-tilts and grabs are just the foundation that helps your opponent prepare for blast off
lol
Comet7
Smash Lord
marth can get f smash from DI away at around 70-90%, fyi
Darklink401
Smash Master
Tipper fmash?
Sounds deadly.
I guess that's why Marth is the high-tier in this situation.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Roy wishes he had guaranteed setups. 
Darklink401
Smash Master
I'm satisfied with dtilt to aerial neutral B on fast fallers X3Roy wishes he had guaranteed setups.
kingPiano
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I'm sure Chival meant KO setups, to which Roy has almost 0.
FFers are usually never a problem for anyone either, it's the mids and floaties that are the problems for mid-low tiers.
Darklink401
Smash Master
That KOs tho~ if you edgehog XP
Also that IS a good point, I guess xD
Can the upsmash spike combo into fsmash? or is it techable?
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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I am of the opinion that underrated means nothing more than a person does not have the individual talent to have good execution of the character. You can go try to make Roy seem like a less underrated character, but he will still have bad traits in several areas.
Benny P
Smash Journeyman
i love roy to death, but i agree- you can like a bad character, but you cant make a character un bad. but, people can get good with bad characters.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The closest thing that Roy has to a KO setup is d-throw DI trap into f-smash (on some characters).
Other DI dependent stuff is like d-tilt > uair > land on a platform > f-smash.
Other DI dependent stuff is like d-tilt > uair > land on a platform > f-smash.
1000g2g3g4g800999
Smash Journeyman
A few KO setups:
Reverse bair to dsmash can work on floatier characters. Good luck landing it. Regular bair to three hits of DED can KO people with bad DI, with proper dashing between the bair and DED if necessary. DI to escape upward can be punished with the up 3rd hit of DED to force a tech-chase. On a stage like FD, both of these should stop comboing a little bit before they would KO if the opponent can DI (either escaping the combo or KO). Reverse bair to DED can also work. On middlegravities dtilt to dair meteor to fsmash tech-chase can work at the percents where you can combo those first two hits (and get the closer hits of dair and appropriate DI by the opponent). Most of the bair stuff could be applied to pivot fsmash, depending on DI (and not at the same percents). If they DI the bair down because they were trying to CC one of Roy's more noodlesticky aerials, it can force a tech-chase situation where you can finish with fsmash or dsmash. More upwards DI on reverse bair can be combo'd into the dair as well.
Most of the above shouldn't realistically be KOing people on stages that aren't like, Yoshi's if you're landing it at all. Also, the reverse bair dsmash thing works better with Marth.
I say don't bother with setups, just go for a raw KO, or put them in bad positions. I am also a proponent of mastering Roy's counter if you intend to play him, so counter the opponent's strong moves if you can.
Reverse bair to dsmash can work on floatier characters. Good luck landing it. Regular bair to three hits of DED can KO people with bad DI, with proper dashing between the bair and DED if necessary. DI to escape upward can be punished with the up 3rd hit of DED to force a tech-chase. On a stage like FD, both of these should stop comboing a little bit before they would KO if the opponent can DI (either escaping the combo or KO). Reverse bair to DED can also work. On middlegravities dtilt to dair meteor to fsmash tech-chase can work at the percents where you can combo those first two hits (and get the closer hits of dair and appropriate DI by the opponent). Most of the bair stuff could be applied to pivot fsmash, depending on DI (and not at the same percents). If they DI the bair down because they were trying to CC one of Roy's more noodlesticky aerials, it can force a tech-chase situation where you can finish with fsmash or dsmash. More upwards DI on reverse bair can be combo'd into the dair as well.
Most of the above shouldn't realistically be KOing people on stages that aren't like, Yoshi's if you're landing it at all. Also, the reverse bair dsmash thing works better with Marth.
I say don't bother with setups, just go for a raw KO, or put them in bad positions. I am also a proponent of mastering Roy's counter if you intend to play him, so counter the opponent's strong moves if you can.