Version 1.0.8 Changes

[KenMeister]

Didn't see a thread for this, so I thought I'd go ahead and make one. I have no clue whether or not Mario has changed, given his history of not having any changes at all from past patches (wouldn't be surprised if that continued). Anyhoo, let the discussion begin!

 

[RespectingOpinions]

Playing around with him I didn't feel anything.

 

[Wheaty23]

I wish I could download the patch

 

[Slam Jammington]

I played around with him this morning and couldn't feel any changes. d-throw up-tilt combo seems to work perfectly.

 

[Wheaty23]

I'm still gonna hold out for a nair damage buff. Luigi's is so good.

 

[Slam Jammington]

I think Mario is nearly perfect the way his right now. The only thing they might change is that problem with down-air if it comes to their attention

 

[KenMeister]

Mario is fine, honestly. I'm pretty okay not expecting anymore nerfs/buffs outta him. Other than making ftilt safer at low percent or leading into something so it's a move I actually end up using, or the hits of dair connecting better, I can't think of anything else honestly.

 

[mario123007]

I'm not gonna update my 3DS until I recorded my important replays.

 

[Eisen]

Mario is fine, honestly. I'm pretty okay not expecting anymore nerfs/buffs outta him. Other than making ftilt safer at low percent or leading into something so it's a move I actually end up using, or the hits of dair connecting better, I can't think of anything else honestly.

Why the hell would you do that when literally all of his moves are almost as safe as Sheik's, and all his moves have really great setup/combo potential? Mario is honestly top tier or at least high high tier right now, imo. Not to mention incredibly easy.

Also, I could swear his uptilt chains are easier to get out of now. I haven't been caught in one since the patch came out. Jumping out seems much easier, but maybe the person I was fighting was being slow. Doubt it though because they were otherwise pretty good.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dair is mostly because Mario is susceptible to get Frame 3 Naired out of it even on hit by people like Fox. Kind of scuzzy to get punished on hit for a mixup, I believe.

 

[Xeze]

So far Mario doesn't feel any different to me. I agree, he is fine as he is right now.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Not to mention incredibly easy.

A character that requires a constant application of above average or higher fundamentals, an extensive knowledge of when to start and stop a variety of combos on over 50 characters in a myriad of percentage scenarios and has no kill confirms is not "incredibly easy".

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario has no changes.

But a lot of characters have been buffed, and the DLC characters (especially Ryu) look very daunting. I expect Mario to drop quite a number of spots.

 

[Crissaegrim]

Mario has no changes.

But a lot of characters have been buffed, and the DLC characters (especially Ryu) look very daunting. I expect Mario to drop quite a number of spots.

Do any of the buffed characters appear to be a big threat to Mario? From the new ones Ryu is the only one that seems scary good.

 

[KenMeister]

Do any of the buffed characters appear to be a big threat to Mario? From the new ones Ryu is the only one that seems scary good.

I'm going to guess Roy and Ryu maybe since they can stuff alot of our aerial approaches, and Ryu is one of the few characters who actually outbox us, though we have a significant edgeguarding advantage just from cape and FLUDD alone. I don't imagine Link, Char and Ike would be that much different even with the buffs, though....

 

[HeroMystic]

Do any of the buffed characters appear to be a big threat to Mario? From the new ones Ryu is the only one that seems scary good.

I honestly believe Ryu will outright deck us. There's no way to approach this guy without eating 10+ damage each time, and trades are very favorable for him. It's like fighting Luigi, except he hits even harder.

Everyone else seems managable. Roy and Ike look daunting at first until you realize their disadvantaged states are very exploitable, which is something Mario strives off of.

 

[Xeze]

Mario has no changes.

But a lot of characters have been buffed, and the DLC characters (especially Ryu) look very daunting. I expect Mario to drop quite a number of spots.

Mario will inevitably drop, just by the fact that his representation in tournaments has already starting to drop (at least it seems to me).

 

[Ryuunake]

I don't think he'll drop. If he does, not by a lot. Because Mario is good agaisnt pretty much everyone because he can be any styles you want him to be.

I honestly believe Ryu will outright deck us. There's no way to approach this guy without eating 10+ damage each time, and trades are very favorable for him. It's like fighting Luigi, except he hits even harder.

Everyone else seems managable. Roy and Ike look daunting at first until you realize their disadvantaged states are very exploitable, which is something Mario strives off of.

Also. I haven't had problems VS Ryu as Mario. He's easy to punish and combo

 

[BSP]

Mario will inevitably drop, just by the fact that his representation in tournaments has already starting to drop (at least it seems to me).

This may not be the exact thread for it, but it's something that has been concerning me. As fast and combo as Mario is, I don't see him in Japanese top 8's very often. I don't look that hard, but still, I feel like good characters should show up frequently.

Is Mario's speed and combo potential not enough? I still think he's pretty good, but he is lacking in the results department.

 

[HeroMystic]

Also. I haven't had problems VS Ryu as Mario. He's easy to punish and combo

If you hit his shield he will either murder you with F-air, SRK, or a Hard Read Focus Attack.

Ryu also isn't easy to combo. Focus Attack has super armor which makes him not flinch to anything for one hit (multi hits will work), and N-air is a combo breaker (Frame 4).

And unless Ryu is spamming smashes, completing focus attacks (instead of cancelling them), or completely whiffing SRK, none of which good Ryus will do, he won't be easy to punish. Ryu should be using F-air, B-air, Heavy Jab and Heavy D-tilt for spacing.

 

[Eisen]

A character that requires a constant application of above average or higher fundamentals, an extensive knowledge of when to start and stop a variety of combos on over 50 characters in a myriad of percentage scenarios and has no kill confirms is not "incredibly easy".

lol, you mean Shulk? I know, right?

No but seriously, Mario may not have a ton of "untapped potential" or whatever, but you're fooling yourself if you don't think he has very straightforward moves, consistent combos, and all the most basic fighting tools. I mean, you can get out of pretty much anything with his nair, his aerial combos are pretty linear, his gimps are good, decent recovery, he has a solid kill throw, an invincible upsmash that's fast, good spacing tools, good projectile and anti-projectile game, good range/speed ratio, long lasting hitboxes, multihits, windboxes, good OOS options, good close range options, a combo throw, a spacing throw... Not saying that in the vein of he has all those and they're all as strong as, say, Rosalina's moveset, but it's very basic and there's a ton of ways you can play this character. His learning curve is pretty tiny respectively, imo. Not to invalidate good Marios, but like literally I can play as Mario and win more consistently than I do with characters I actually play against a good number of players.

Not saying he doesn't require skill, but to imply he might require more skill than say, Shulk or Ganon would be wrong too. I guess I'll say he's not "incredibly easy" as I said, but definitely easier than most of, if not the entire rest of Smash 4's cast.

 

[Slam Jammington]

Has anyone tested cape on ryu's side b? seems like if it works we could gimp ryu pretty easily.

 

[KenMeister]

Has anyone tested cape on ryu's side b? seems like if it works we could gimp ryu pretty easily.

I have. It works.

 

[HeroMystic]

Caping Ryu's Side-B is possible, but it doesn't put him in helpless. So as long as he keeps his double jump he can still recover from below.

 

[Xeze]

This may not be the exact thread for it, but it's something that has been concerning me. As fast and combo as Mario is, I don't see him in Japanese top 8's very often. I don't look that hard, but still, I feel like good characters should show up frequently.

Is Mario's speed and combo potential not enough? I still think he's pretty good, but he is lacking in the results department.

Lack of kill confirms hurts him, imo. With many top/high tiers having them (ex. Luigi down throw->rising nado; Fox jab->jab->up smash), Mario has to rely more on reads or percentage- and character-specific setups to get kills.

 

[Kulty]

Dammit. I really hope Mario still stays solid among the competition. I really have a feeling that the development of the metagame will drop Mario as years will come just like how it was in Melee's metagame development. Mario was like super good back in the early days of Melee because he was just so easy to use reliably, but then, he began to fall down after many potential discoveries of other characters such as . I have a feeling he might be mid-tier just like Melee after many years of competition.

 

[Xeze]

I honestly wouldn't mind Mario dropping to mid-tier in Sm4sh. Kicking people's butt's with non top/high tier characters is always fun

 

[Kulty]

But Mario can no longer be competitive viable after this. It really sucks, but I see what you mean. Really rewarding to just defeat a top-tier character with a low-tier character.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario imo now loses to Falco, when previously he had slight adv. The big change in that matchup is Falco's N-air, meaning Mario can no longer safely approach Falco from the air and force him to guess in order to punish. Falco is really scary now that his N-air connects consistently, which lets him anti-air, combo better, and edgeguard even more aggressively than he could before. His ground game still outclasses Mario, so now basically he's like Ganon against Mario. Hits harder, has better range, and is scary to recover against.

We already had a difficult matchup against Link, and he got buffed with a far superior grab game (grab has noticeably longer range, AND his D-throw has legitimate combos that can even kill). So I believe Mario is solidly disadvantaged in that matchup. I would argue this is likely one of his hardest matchups right now.

Ike also got pretty huge buffs but I don't think any of them really change the matchup by a lot (arguably, the power reduction on long range F-tilt hurts him in this matchup too), so I believe that matchup is about even.

Personally I've maintained that Mario is overrated in terms of matchups, and most of the characters that are actually better at spacing Mario out got buffed noticeably. So overall the meta shift is quite unfavorable for Mario.

 

[KenMeister]

You guys are blowing things way out of proportion, Mario is at worst 55:45 with some the top tiers. Mario's frame data and advantaged state is still solid as flid so I don't see him dropping out of high tier anytime soon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You guys are blowing things way out of proportion, Mario is at worst 55:45 with some the top tiers. Mario's frame data and advantaged state is still solid as flid so I don't see him dropping out of high tier anytime soon.

Mario's advantage state sucks when you need to actually kill someone that knows the matchup. Once your opponent refuses to ever recover at certain angles or land next to you instead of going for the ledge, the risk/reward for trying to set up kills for Mario heads south to an extreme if they aren't at B-throw KO range/positions.


I believe Link counterpicks us competitively. He can wall and edgeguard Mario very easily, and now you cannot turtle against his grab game and come out ahead nearly as viably.

 

[Xeze]

The Diddy matchup became probably easier now.

 

[M@v]

I'll have to test if you can cape Ryu's down b as well. Also, yeah I haven't noticed any changes on Mario either.

 

[Xeze]

@ A2ZOMG in your opinion, what are Mario's favorable matchups after this patch?

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2ZOMG in your opinion, what are Mario's favorable matchups after this patch?

Off the top of my head we have the advantage against Toon Link, WFT, Kirby, Bowser, Little Mac, DDD, Robin, Palutena, ROB, Shulk, and Samus. Mostly characters that aren't very good and either manage to also have lousy midrange options or in the case of Mac and Bowser are actually just really easy to edgeguard generally speaking because their recovery specials are really bad.

Then Mario goes relatively evenish with more characters, and loses to people that can space him out and edgeguard him consistently. Ganon and Link are the most obvious examples of characters that can do this reliably. Marth and Lucina are okay at it but don't always kill as early as the former two, though they got some major buffs so who knows. Ike gets bodied by Mario's juggles and actually still gets annoyed a lot by FLUDD edgeguards so he goes about evenish in spite of having pretty good tools in neutral against Mario. G&W beats Mario in spite of being mostly terrible because F-tilt spacing, U-smash juggles, and D-air edgeguards are actually really lame to deal with. The Pits have the best neutral game against Mario, are a a bit worse at edgeguarding him, but both can get KOs reliably with F-throw so they win by simply being consistent. Luigi in spite of supposed short range actually is pretty good at spacing against Mario because his Fireball, F-air, and Jab are all fast and generally have better range than Mario's stuff, which combined with his high damage is pretty lame.

Notably, most of the more spacing heavy characters aren't generally considered top tier, though Rosalina is probably a lot harder than most people give credit. Until you get the B-throw, she can wall and juggle Mario pretty disgustingly well.

 

[Super FOG]

I fought a Ryu in the day he came out and I had a pretty easy time, Focus Attack is slow and predictable, I spot dodged and punished with a grab, I believe the worst disadvantage Mario has against Ryu is keeping defensive all the time, since Ryu has excellent shield pressure options (an F-tilt that breaks shields :v ), Hadoukens are overall a medium speed projectile, but still pretty easy to cape, caping a Tatsumaki in the air can pretty much doom Ryu's recovery since the horizontal propulsion of this move is huge.

55:45 on Mario's side.

I have two full matches, if they interest to you, I'll upload them and show them here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I fought a Ryu in the day he came out and I had a pretty easy time, Focus Attack is slow and predictable, I spot dodged and punished with a grab, I believe the worst disadvantage Mario has against Ryu is keeping defensive all the time, since Ryu has excellent shield pressure options (an F-tilt that breaks shields :v ), Hadoukens are overall a medium speed projectile, but still pretty easy to cape, caping a Tatsumaki in the air can pretty much doom Ryu's recovery since the horizontal propulsion of this move is huge.

55:45 on Mario's side.

I have two full matches, if they interest to you, I'll upload them and show them here.

So basically you played against a Ryu that has no idea what AFADC is.

Not that I'm declaring a matchup ratio or anything, but Focus Attack is one of the big reasons Ryu is a major threat. Move makes him a lot harder to chase when he can always cancel it with a Dash in midair.

 

[Super FOG]

Yes, the Ryu I fought missed FADC a lot of times, but I still don't see the "threat" factor in the whole character besides his shield pressure options.

I'll post the matches soon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yes, the Ryu I fought missed FADC a lot of times, but I still don't see the "threat" factor in the whole character besides his shield pressure options.

I'll post the matches soon.

You can't punish Ryu's landing if he does AFADC correctly given not just the armor but the sheer air mobility it gives him. This sucks for Mario because basically his only real way to get KOs at reasonable percents is punishing landings. Ryu doesn't just have scary shield pressure options. He is also a threat because of his reward off basically any hit, very good frame data, mobility, and solid recovery that boasts a completely invincible uppercut.

 

[Kulty]

Off the top of my head we have the advantage against Toon Link, WFT, Kirby, Bowser, Little Mac, DDD, Robin, Palutena, ROB, Shulk, and Samus. Mostly characters that aren't very good and either manage to also have lousy midrange options or in the case of Mac and Bowser are actually just really easy to edgeguard generally speaking because their recovery specials are really bad.

Then Mario goes relatively evenish with more characters, and loses to people that can space him out and edgeguard him consistently. Ganon and Link are the most obvious examples of characters that can do this reliably. Marth and Lucina are okay at it but don't always kill as early as the former two, though they got some major buffs so who knows. Ike gets bodied by Mario's juggles and actually still gets annoyed a lot by FLUDD edgeguards so he goes about evenish in spite of having pretty good tools in neutral against Mario. G&W beats Mario in spite of being mostly terrible because F-tilt spacing, U-smash juggles, and D-air edgeguards are actually really lame to deal with. The Pits have the best neutral game against Mario, are a a bit worse at edgeguarding him, but both can get KOs reliably with F-throw so they win by simply being consistent. Luigi in spite of supposed short range actually is pretty good at spacing against Mario because his Fireball, F-air, and Jab are all fast and generally have better range than Mario's stuff, which combined with his high damage is pretty lame.

Notably, most of the more spacing heavy characters aren't generally considered top tier, though Rosalina is probably a lot harder than most people give credit. Until you get the B-throw, she can wall and juggle Mario pretty disgustingly well.

Not to insult you as a player (you explained it very well), but does this basically mean that Mario will no longer be high-tier and instead be mid-tier? Since the latest patch, I kinda feel uncomfortable with some matchups that I previously had a easier time before, but now, it becomes slightly more difficult. I kinda hate that patch! I really thought that the 1.0.7 version was perfectly balanced (almost perfectly), but now, it's just ugh. Hate the Rosalina buff!