Vectoring and how it will change the metagame (no more DI).

[Zork]

For that haven't already, I highly recommend you read the vectoring article on this site. For those too lazy to read it according to Strong Bad:

1. Regular DI causing longer survivability is a thing of the past. There's no longer a point to holding up if you get knocked sideways or left/right if you get knocked upwards.
2. Instead there is a new mechanic that is named Vectoring for now. In short, holding the opposite direction of the direction you got hit will cause you to get knocked back less, thus allowing you to survive longer. You will also go further if you hold the direction you got hit.

Here's a link to Strong Bad's video that demonstrates this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aArzZUr0_z4

Here's some things that can be inferred from this:

1. Strong bad mentioned this one. A lot of combos we are seeing currently might not be possible once people get used to vectoring. For a lot of them it might be possible to hold the direction the combo starter hits you and be too far away for the followups. In other words, the amount of true combos in the game might actually be pretty limited thus putting more emphasis on the neutral game like Brawl.

2. As a result of point 1, characters with the strongest defensive/camp games might end up becoming the best characters overall as the reward for approaching might not be as big as we initially thought. In fact it might even be potentially lower than Brawl because Brawl didn't have vectoring but did have things that promoted aggressive play that Smash 4 doesn't such as ledge hogging, smaller blastzones and chain grabs.

Of course, a lot more testing is needed on vectoring and possible other new mechanics for DI in Smash 4 before we can say anything for certain. I'm personally interested in how much SDI will play a role this time.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I think it's something people will have to adapt to. People will eventually adapt and figure out how to deal with it or they'll go back to Project M or Melee.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's DI. Same concept, different execution.

 

[Zork]

It's not the same thing as it pertains to combos. Before this you couldn't hold the direction you got hit and be purposely sent further away than normal. This is ideal for escaping what otherwise might have been true combos. More hitstun does not matter if you can't be in the range for the followup in time thanks to this.

 

[LordVacation]

Not even mad.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's not the same thing as it pertains to combos. Before this you couldn't hold the direction you got hit and be purposely sent further away than normal. This is ideal for escaping what otherwise might have been true combos. More hitstun does not matter if you can't be in the range for the followup in time thanks to this.

Sounds like DI to me

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Sounds like DI to me

I could be wrong on this, but DI and Vectoring are actually very different. When using DI, you can influence the direction that your character will move in when taking knockback. When Vectoring is put into place, it actually changes the amount of knockback you take, instead of just moving your character over. DI would allow you to survive better by drifting further away from the Blast Zones, while Vectoring allows you to survive longer by actually REMOVING some knockback.

 

[Zork]

I could be wrong on this, but DI and Vectoring are actually very different. When using DI, you can influence the direction that your character will move in when taking knockback. When Vectoring is put into place, it actually changes the amount of knockback you take, instead of just moving your character over. DI would allow you to survive better by drifting further away from the Blast Zones, while Vectoring allows you to survive longer by actually REMOVING some knockback.

You hit the nail on the head.

Some Brawl players might go "But I remember influencing how far I was sent back then as well". Not while in hitstun. That was due to drifting while in the air in general or fastfalling which was only possible AFTER hitstun was over (and thus the true combo opportunity was also already over).

As far as being in hitstun goes, before now you could only influence the direction/angle you were sent, not how much knockback you received.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

There's still DI in the game. It can just change how far you go too. (I'm still not convinced "Vectoring" is legit)

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm hella worried about this vectoring. I was hyped about the fact that there were nice combos. But this kinda ***** it up. I hope we all realize that a neutral heavy game is incredibly boring. This vectoring from what I understand is you get hit, then you hold direction and you add a vector of knockback units in the direction you angled at. Many of our hype combos will likely not exist anymore because of this. For example I get hit by Mario's up tilt at low percents. I vector downward and I can now hit him before he can do another move after his up tilt.

It really saddens me that we'll never get another combo heavy Smash game (Melee is combo heavy, but many people were saying that Smash 4 played like 64 so I was hyped).

SSB Neutral Game All Day for Wii U and 3DS? Seems like it. Combine that with the fact that recoveries are ridiculous in this game (lol Rosalina), edgeguarding is no longer a real option (these edge mechanics need to disappear), and gimping is much harder, and now this vectoring, killing things will now be very difficult.

 

[Raijinken]

It is too early to tell decisively. It is possible that people will figure out more combos (enough nitpicking about a "true combo" versus any other type, if you hit them to follow up, you have combo'd. If it bothers you that much, go play Street Fighter or something) that depend on reads and spacing rather than high hitstun and fast characters. It's also possible that we could find even more new mechanics that change the game, or that patches in the future could affect many of these properties.

Either way, I've always had more fun in the neutral game than during combos, so if it turns out neutral-heavy, well, I'm having fun anyway.

 

[victinivcreate1]

It is too early to tell decisively. It is possible that people will figure out more combos (enough nitpicking about a "true combo" versus any other type, if you hit them to follow up, you have combo'd. If it bothers you that much, go play Street Fighter or something) that depend on reads and spacing rather than high hitstun and fast characters. It's also possible that we could find even more new mechanics that change the game, or that patches in the future could affect many of these properties.

Street Fighter has 0-death true combos please educate yourself.
Patching would do thig ame a lot of good, but its Sakurai. can we trust him to make a good competitive game on purpose?

 

[Big-Cat]

Street Fighter doesn't have touch of death combos.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Street Fighter doesn't have touch of death combos.

Wait, which SF are we talking about? If you're talking about 4 then ok I'll be quiet. But I'm talking about 3.
Then again people are always comparing 4 to Smash Bros, when really that doesn't work at all. You can't really compare SF4 to Smash AT ALL. It'd be nice if people would stop bringing up SF4 in a Smash conversation.

 

[Big-Cat]

None of the SF games have TOD combos. The closest was Makoto that requires two right guesses to win.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Only 2 guesses. Thats it. Close enough. The top level players can make these guesses.

 

[Beatness]

Isn't this sort of balanced out by the "rage" mechanic though?

 

[Snakeyes]

None of the SF games have TOD combos. The closest was Makoto that requires two right guesses to win.

Some of the SF2 games had several of them, actually.

 

[Snakeyes]

Isn't this sort of balanced out by the "rage" mechanic though?

No, because the rage mechanic gives your moves more knockback, making it even harder to follow-up.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

I'm confused so when I fly left I hold right to reduce knockback?Same vice versa and up and down?

 

[Renji64]

It sucks it is gonna be less combos it is the one thing i wanted this game to have. I guess i will try doubles more in this title. It is very dissapointing how easy it is to recover and live forever in this installment. Going offstage has no risk.

 

[meleebrawler]

It sucks it is gonna be less combos it is the one thing i wanted this game to have. I guess i will try doubles more in this title. It is very dissapointing how easy it is to recover and live forever in this installment.

It's only disappointing for the people who watch the fighting.

There's a reason infinite combos get posted a lot on Youtube: they get views. Infinites (or just long combos)
are fun to do and see. You know who DOESN'T like infinites and long combos? People who get hit by them.

Why does a match have to be over fast to be good? It's not tournament time constraints; we have time limits
for stock matches.

A lot of moves can be followed up on in this Smash. The difference with other fighting games is that
the person getting hit can potentially maneuver away, but the attacker can continue if he anticipates
their escape path. Certainly sounds more fun for both sides rather than one person going through a
combo practiced hundreds of times in a practice session while the other person can do nothing but pray
he chokes the combo or wait for it to finish.

 

[Renji64]

It's only disappointing for the people who watch the fighting.

There's a reason infinite combos get posted a lot on Youtube: they get views. Infinites (or just long combos)
are fun to do and see. You know who DOESN'T like infinites and long combos? People who get hit by them.

Why does a match have to be over fast to be good? It's not tournament time constraints; we have time limits
for stock matches.

A lot of moves can be followed up on in this Smash. The difference with other fighting games is that
the person getting hit can potentially maneuver away, but the attacker can continue if he anticipates
their escape path. Certainly sounds more fun for both sides rather than one person going through a
combo practiced hundreds of times in a practice session while the other person can do nothing but pray
he chokes the combo or wait for it to finish.

I like matches go by quickly not be long and drawn out for no reason.

 

[meleebrawler]

I like matches go by quickly not be long and drawn out for no reason.

I think the only blast line I would shorten is the top one, waiting for the opponent to come
down from really high with no platforms CAN admittedly be a bit annoying.

Everywhere else, though we just need to practice our edgeguarding if we want to speed things along.

P.S. I think that if you saw the red lightning effect and you didn't get KOed, then vectoring probably
saved your life.

 

[Gameboi834]

Why don't we just decrease the damage stat from 1.0 to 0.5 if we want combos?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Why don't we just decrease the damage stat from 1.0 to 0.5 if we want combos?

Why should we have to do that? Why can't the devs just make a game that is both extremely fun casually and competitively, and not add random characters into the roster, and give us beloved mechanics back (proper DI/SDI, dash momentum into jump and dash dancing especially).

Thats the question I ask.

 

[Snakeyes]

Why should we have to do that? Why can't the devs just make a game that is both extremely fun casually and competitively, and not add random characters into the roster, and give us beloved mechanics back (proper DI/SDI, dash momentum into jump and dash dancing especially).

Thats the question I ask.

And Sakurai responds with: "Have you ever made a game?"

 

[victinivcreate1]

And Sakurai responds with: "Have you ever made a game?"

I say, "bruh have you ever used copy/paste?" I mean come on. Sakurai could be lazy and still give us a decent game by just copy and pasting Melee mechanics or 64 mechanics and then giving us new characters to work with trololol

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

And Sakurai responds with: "Have you ever made a game?"

Oh Sakurai, you jokester. I hate you.

 

[Snakeyes]

A lot of moves can be followed up on in this Smash. The difference with other fighting games is that the person getting hit can potentially maneuver away, but the attacker can continue if he anticipates their escape path. Certainly sounds more fun for both sides rather than one person going through a combo practiced hundreds of times in a practice session while the other person can do nothing but pray he chokes the combo or wait for it to finish.

Which unforgiving, dial-a-combo heavy Smash game are you referring to here? Even Smash 64 wasn't as bad as what you're describing.

And no, I've yet to see moves being followed up into something meaningful.

 

[topspin1617]

Which unforgiving, dial-a-combo heavy Smash game are you referring to here? Even Smash 64 wasn't as bad as what you're describing.

And no, I've yet to see moves being followed up into something meaningful.

Are you serious.

 

[Terotrous]

I feel like this is the way DI always should have worked. Hold the direction you want to go. So much more intuitive than the corners method.

Pretty much everything about Smash 4 is shaping up to be the way I always wanted it.

 

[Chauzu]

I feel like some people are being too fast on judging this eitherway. We have too little info so far to say that this is a good or a bad thing. The key is - does this ruin low% combos? Since combos in Smash 4 is only possible at low% to begin with.

And in the Vector thread we have had reports that the effects at lower% are neglible, and in that case, this system should be alright. As has been said this is more intuitive than DI to begin with since it emulates the way that physics works in the mind of casual people.

 

[KageJuin]

I feel like some people are being too fast on judging this eitherway. We have too little info so far to say that this is a good or a bad thing. The key is - does this ruin low% combos? Since combos in Smash 4 is only possible at low% to begin with.

And in the Vector thread we have had reports that the effects at lower% are neglible, and in that case, this system should be alright. As has been said this is more intuitive than DI to begin with since it emulates the way that physics works in the mind of casual people.

and the way physics work IRL.
Force is a vector after all.

 

[FalKoopa]

I really don't think we should drum up this issue before mass playtesting. The game isn't even out yet.

Well, in any case, it is more intuitive than DI, at least. When you're sent flying, the natural (and immediate) reaction is to hold the stick in a direction opposite to it, not perpendicular to it.

 

[Thor]

Why don't we just decrease the damage stat from 1.0 to 0.5 if we want combos?

People don't want Shulk living to 800% (or 500% or whatever it is that would result from .5 damage ratio and his Monado Arts that reduces knockback stacked together alongside good distance influence/vectoring/knockback influence/whatever it's called).

Games would also take forever in that kind of format (having to rack up 200% every time just to get close to KOing with an incredibly strong move like Bowser fsmash, and farther for characters like Falco? eh, no thanks). It would buff Lucario (that may be a good thing, I don't know). It would also make moves like Rest and Bowser fsmash even MORE valuable, because it would go from KOing like 40% earlier to KOing like 120% earlier (making up numbers here, but that's the effects of KBG).

It would also make low percent games silly, since that's like giving everyone massive flinch resistance. It would buff combos at like 100% or something (maybe), but not at zero percent where opponent just doesn't move.

I agree with everything in FalKoopa's post above mine.

 

[MT Williams]

Just to clarify...vectoring is essentially the same as DI in execution, but different in result? Instead of controlling the direction the character goes, you're simply reducing knock back. Is that about right?

 

[Doc.Pringles]

Honestly, I'm not interpreting it as much as making the game more neutral or longer fights (due to increased blast zone distance and vectoring), rather I feel the combat will balance out in time and end up being more meteor-mashing. You don't need to rack up high %age, nor do you need to cause a lot of knock back to kill someone with a meteor smash..

 

[HeavyLobster]

Vectoring doesn't mean the end of combos because it barely does anything at low %s when most combos can be performed. It might mean a few marginal combos are no longer guaranteed, but even in those cases it means you get put in the air for a juggle opportunity rather than a reset to neutral, and it's much easier to punish someone for being in the air than it was in Brawl.