V Canceling...

[Litt]

So im sure all of you know this first one... V cancel shieks fair or up air to live that much longer against that ****ing c***.

But this is not what I want this thread to be about...

For those of you who are more familiar with V canceling, (haven't read up on it yet), but would it be applicable to crouch canceling to extend its duration?

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3n1kgf/new_global_technique_discovery_vcanceling_reduce/

 

[Agni Shine]

When I first heard about this I brushed it off as somewhat useless, but the more people talk about it the more intriguing it is to me. Living even longer sounds good to me.

 

[Traivlin]

You can only use it when you're airborne, not attacking and not in hitstun. I believe it doesn't work in float as well.

 

[Mervis]

Honestly I do this habitually. Not because I knew about this, but because I like to amsa tech and just instinctively press R after getting hit. I had no idea it had this effect. I will say that by doing so I miss waaaaaay too many techs because of the tech lockout.

 

[Litt]

Honestly I do this habitually. Not because I knew about this, but because I like to amsa tech and just instinctively press R after getting hit. I had no idea it had this effect. I will say that by doing so I miss waaaaaay too many techs because of the tech lockout.

Hey Mervis, just a heads up this is 2 frames before or the frame you actually get hit, not after you get hit. Also if you do this unsuccessfully, there is a 40 frame cool down for the use of sheild triggers again (same if you miss a tech I am assuming correct me if Im wrong people im not expert on v canceling... yet ) so you were not doing this before now and you still may be doing it incorrectly

 

[Mervis]

Hey Mervis, just a heads up this is 2 frames before or the frame you actually get hit, not after you get hit. Also if you do this unsuccessfully, there is a 40 frame cool down for the use of sheild triggers again (same if you miss a tech I am assuming correct me if Im wrong people im not expert on v canceling... yet ) so you were not doing this before now and you still may be doing it incorrectly

Possibly. I mean I preemptively hit R as I see I'm about to get hit to buffer the amsa tech, but I doubt I time it correctly anyways.

To add onto discussion. If you can't v-cancel in hitstun, wouldn't that mean Sheik's dthrow fair can not be v-canceled? I guess it depends on %s and DI but I feel like Sheik's dthrow puts the victim in enough hitstun for her to usually follow up.

 

[tauKhan]

To add onto discussion. If you can't v-cancel in hitstun, wouldn't that mean Sheik's dthrow fair can not be v-canceled?

That is correct. I was initially hyped about v-cancelling, but the more I think about it the less of an impact I think it will have in the meta. The basic problem is that you most often have to be in fully actionable aerial state to v-cancel. Pressing the shoulder button in such state causes you to airdodge, so unlike the varius DI's and other defensive techs, the cases where you can pre-emptively "option select" v-cancels are rare. The only cases I can think of where v-cancels can be used effictevely are some of the special falls after recovery, but even then it's common anyway for the opponents to wait you to land and then punish landing which prevents v-cancelling altogether. So basically v-cancelling just means that you survive a bit better during the startup of airdodge than we previously knew.

 

[Traivlin]

What about Fox's Jab to Upsmash? Would that be a good situation to V-Cancel? I'm unsure if you can V-Cancel out of hitstun states, if you are already fully actionable - you can at least airdodge out of them without jumping, although you could always just buffer a jump in hitstun anyway.

 

[Litt]

That is correct. I was initially hyped about v-cancelling, but the more I think about it the less of an impact I think it will have in the meta. The basic problem is that you most often have to be in fully actionable aerial state to v-cancel. Pressing the shoulder button in such state causes you to airdodge, so unlike the varius DI's and other defensive techs, the cases where you can pre-emptively "option select" v-cancels are rare. The only cases I can think of where v-cancels can be used effictevely are some of the special falls after recovery, but even then it's common anyway for the opponents to wait you to land and then punish landing which prevents v-cancelling altogether. So basically v-cancelling just means that you survive a bit better during the startup of airdodge than we previously knew.

Yes but there is always the chance the sheik is not frame perfect on her dash to fair so there is a decent chance we will be out of hit stun some of the time to be able to v cancel.

 

[343]

Yeah, it still seems like it could be useful for juggling not-true combos where you git out of hitstun and enter tumble, but still can't escape with doublejump/wiggle out airdodge/whatever.

On the other hand, it might not be that useful to reduce knockback against juggling moves because that just makes it easier for them to follow up... but it could be useful for say, living vs upair -> knee or w/e (that might combo though...)

 

[Litt]

Yeah, it still seems like it could be useful for juggling not-true combos where you git out of hitstun and enter tumble, but still can't escape with doublejump/wiggle out airdodge/whatever.

On the other hand, it might not be that useful to reduce knockback against juggling moves because that just makes it easier for them to follow up... but it could be useful for say, living vs upair -> knee or w/e (that might combo though...)

I mean dude, the more guarenteed the combo the more likely it will be known so, also when attemtping to do this, its not likely you would attempt it at lower percents, because A, you arent focusing on not dying as samus and B. you are on the ground for the most part.

 

[Acryte]

Samus was the first character that I thought of when V-Cancelling was discovered. Strange to see that you guys aren't planning to use it. It can be used out of special fall... that means that when you Up-B OoS you can prepare to use it if they CC'ed, fell out of the Up-B, or you whiffed and they are now underneath you and planning to use an attack. Chances are, you won't be needing to tech in that situation anyways. Side platform techs are very unlikely and you'll probably hit that tech within the window anyways from when you input the V-Cancel if you're at high percent and end up getting hit with a sideways punish. It's extremely likely you'll be punished off the top and less off the sides. Samus has great horizontal recovery anyways. The top based applications will see the greatest reward (90% distance travelled).

 

[Litt]

Samus was the first character that I thought of when V-Cancelling was discovered. Strange to see that you guys aren't planning to use it. It can be used out of special fall... that means that when you Up-B OoS you can prepare to use it if they CC'ed, fell out of the Up-B, or you whiffed and they are now underneath you and planning to use an attack. Chances are, you won't be needing to tech in that situation anyways. Side platform techs are very unlikely and you'll probably hit that tech within the window anyways from when you input the V-Cancel if you're at high percent and end up getting hit with a sideways punish. It's extremely likely you'll be punished off the top and less off the sides. Samus has great horizontal recovery anyways. The top based applications will see the greatest reward (90% distance travelled).

Well that specific use, most high level samuses have learned to ledge cancel fairly consistently or just not get baited and do it where they arent sure it will succeed

 

[masterpad]

does this work in pm3.6?

 

[Litt]

does this wrok in pm3.6?

Very little "wrok" in pm the way it is, if they can't even get extendur to wrok then v canceling certainly not in dere

 

[masterpad]

Very little "wrok" in pm the way it is, if they can't even get extendur to wrok then v canceling certainly not in dere

sorry, i didn't mean to be impolite .
I just discover the new advanced technique and this confirms me that introduction of more visual effects in pm could be the real big thing! especially visual effects on advanced tech

 

[Litt]

sorry, i didn't mean to be impolite .
I just discover the new advanced technique and this confirms me that introduction of more visual effects in pm could be the real big thing! especially visual effects on advanced tech

You were not impolite, but this is a melee forum not PM. If you have a PM related question, you should direct it to the pm general discussion. Of course visual effects are nice, but PM has a long way to even get to where melee (a game made 15 years ago) is currently at mechanically.

 

[masterpad]

You were not impolite, but this is a melee forum not PM. If you have a PM related question, you should direct it to the pm general discussion. Of course visual effects are nice, but PM has a long way to even get to where melee (a game made 15 years ago) is currently at mechanically.

Ok i will look for a pm forum fo my questions on v-canceling in pm.

By visual effect i meant visual marks of some advanced techniques that can be really difficult to understand or even to notice when performed (DI, SDI, ASDI or CC...).

About your last sentence, i agree only if we speak about metagame (15 years of metagme you said) .
But keeping the meta aside, and considering that melee and pm having the same game engine (especially with the incredibly smooth 3.6 release) , pm is far more relevant for me considering the outrageous imbalance of the melee roster (imbalance confimed by our same 15 years of meta). Maybe pm could end like this but is not actually the case .
I still play melee sometimes only because pm could never be admit to some major competition because of his mod status.
That is my opinion and my answer to your last sentence, i dont mean at all to start a debate on meleeVSpm especially because i like all smash games (so many memories on Brawl maining snake)
But pm i such a symbol to me: fans that magnifying an original fan-service game, not only on the gameplay side but on many other relevant points like easter eggs, skins/costumes and taunts.

 

[Litt]

Ok i will look for a pm forum fo my questions on v-canceling in pm.

By visual effect i meant visual marks of some advanced techniques that can be really difficult to understand or even to notice when performed (DI, SDI, ASDI or CC...).

About your last sentence, i agree only if we speak about metagame (15 years of metagme you said) .
But keeping the meta aside, and considering that melee and pm having the same game engine (especially with the incredibly smooth 3.6 release) , pm is far more relevant for me considering the outrageous imbalance of the melee roster (imbalance confimed by our same 15 years of meta). Maybe pm could end like this but is not actually the case .
I still play melee sometimes only because pm could never be admit to some major competition because of his mod status.
That is my opinion and my answer to your last sentence, i dont mean at all to start a debate on meleeVSpm especially because i like all smash games (so many memories on Brawl maining snake)
But pm i such a symbol to me: fans that magnifying an original fan-service game, not only on the gameplay side but on many other relevant points like easter eggs, skins/costumes and taunts.

Best of luck, I don't believe there are posts about it because it is not in the game but I could be wrong. I understood what you meant by visual effects, however the visual effects are there, just not as pronounced. Also by introducing those visual effects you change the dynamic of reaction time becuase of how much more player intent is with visual CC effects other than... crouching... personally I think its a useless addition that makes play even more brain dead, so it would go perfectly in PM.

They dont have the same game engine... you are just flat out wrong. PM has brawls game engine which it is why the game is 1 frame delayed relative to melee. PM has a huge outragous imbalanced of the roster by the **** the PMBR calls "balancing" and the PM community just accepts their word as law. None of the PMBR or PMDT has consulted with top respective mains of melee characters to improve character ability/balance in the cast. They literally just add moves and throw random crap in they think is cool and hope for the best, then make some adjustments in the next release if they really done ****ed up... ***3.02 cough*** The only reason PM meta is where it is now is because of 15 years of meta, its not like people looked at PM like it was some ****ing otherly world technology and were just like... shetttt back to the basics everyone... you know all that **** we already figured out, baiting, wavedashing, privots, teching, ledge invins, di, sdi, combos, l canceling ... yeah that **** doesn't work anymore.... NOOOO IT ALL STILL FREAKING WORKED AND THAT IS BECAUSE PM HAS THE EQUIVILANT OF 15 YEARS OF META GAME... you are so ignorant.

Go enjoy pm!

 

[masterpad]

Best of luck, I don't believe there are posts about it because it is not in the game but I could be wrong. I understood what you meant by visual effects, however the visual effects are there, just not as pronounced. Also by introducing those visual effects you change the dynamic of reaction time becuase of how much more player intent is with visual CC effects other than... crouching... personally I think its a useless addition that makes play even more brain dead, so it would go perfectly in PM.

They dont have the same game engine... you are just flat out wrong. PM has brawls game engine which it is why the game is 1 frame delayed relative to melee. PM has a huge outragous imbalanced of the roster by the **** the PMBR calls "balancing" and the PM community just accepts their word as law. None of the PMBR or PMDT has consulted with top respective mains of melee characters to improve character ability/balance in the cast. They literally just add moves and throw random crap in they think is cool and hope for the best, then make some adjustments in the next release if they really done ****ed up... ***3.02 cough*** The only reason PM meta is where it is now is because of 15 years of meta, its not like people looked at PM like it was some ****ing otherly world technology and were just like... shetttt back to the basics everyone... you know all that **** we already figured out, baiting, wavedashing, privots, teching, ledge invins, di, sdi, combos, l canceling ... yeah that **** doesn't work anymore.... NOOOO IT ALL STILL FREAKING WORKED AND THAT IS BECAUSE PM HAS THE EQUIVILANT OF 15 YEARS OF META GAME... you are so ignorant.

Go enjoy pm!

what can possibly justify this rudeness?
Ok you don't like pm good for you. peace.

 

[Litt]

what can possibly justify this rudeness?
Ok you don't like pm good for you. peace.

You make a pm general post in a melee character specific discussion, you go off on a tangent rant on my post of the pros of PM (THE MAJORITY OF WHICH WERE INCORRECT ANY HUGELY BIASED BY YOUR OWN PERCEPTION OF THE GAME... that no one could care less about), effects you would add to PM, and then you complete take MY post away from its intended purpose... bruh how doesnt any of that warrant rudeness. There is a concept called understanding your audience, and you failed epicly in applying that concept here.


"Ok i will look for a pm forum fo my questions on v-canceling in pm....." is all you had to say


ALLLL OF THIS BELOW IS UNNECESSARY and should be kept to yourself, its your opinion and not up for discussion... mainly because you are just flat out wrong on a number of your assertions of PM, but this is also a melee forum and you are just stirring up conflict by talking like that here.

"By visual effect i meant visual marks of some advanced techniques that can be really difficult to understand or even to notice when performed (DI, SDI, ASDI or CC...).

About your last sentence, i agree only if we speak about metagame (15 years of metagme you said) .
But keeping the meta aside, and considering that melee and pm having the same game engine (especially with the incredibly smooth 3.6 release) , pm is far more relevant for me considering the outrageous imbalance of the melee roster (imbalance confimed by our same 15 years of meta). Maybe pm could end like this but is not actually the case .
I still play melee sometimes only because pm could never be admit to some major competition because of his mod status.
That is my opinion and my answer to your last sentence, i dont mean at all to start a debate on meleeVSpm especially because i like all smash games (so many memories on Brawl maining snake)
But pm i such a symbol to me: fans that magnifying an original fan-service game, not only on the gameplay side but on many other relevant points like easter eggs, skins/costumes and taunts."

 

[masterpad]

but PM has a long way to even get to where melee (a game made 15 years ago) is currently at mechanically.

As this was unnecessary at the start but i got your point. Have a good day.

 

[Litt]

As this was unnecessary at the start but i got your point. Have a good day.

THAT IS FLAT OUT FACT... there are plenty of features that the PMDR is unable to add into the game because of its being limited by Brawl's game engine. You were the one that decided it was necessary to throw out your OPINIONs on issues you clearly are not well informed on.

 

[Acryte]

Jesus Christ. Some mod should delete the last few posts. This one included, and then we can get back on topic.

 

[Litt]

Jesus Christ. Some mod should delete the last few posts. This one included, and then we can get back on topic.

Pshhh lmao you think mods would delete posts so the topic can get on with as intended... hahah good one

 

[Narfanator]

This might have been an instance of v-cancelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLQGoaVo3dY [1:45 wait for foxes up smash]

What did I do?

I tried to up-b out of the situation, then L/R, then smashed the stick downwards all in a fast single swoop

The up-b might have happened exactly when I got hit and the L/R was a desperation mashing of buttons.

 

[Litt]

This might have been an instance of v-cancelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLQGoaVo3dY [1:45 wait for foxes up smash]

What did I do?

I tried to up-b out of the situation, then L/R, then smashed the stick downwards all in a fast single swoop

The up-b might have happened exactly when I got hit and the L/R was a desperation mashing of buttons.

You were grounded when you got up smashed... you just might have CCed at last second but this isnt vcanceling... especially if you tried to up b... you would have an attack out and you cant V cancel mid attack. If up b did happen, you would have traded with fox, because your invins first 5 frames of Up b

Please read up on v canceling