Usage of counter.

[DiSCO]

It seems like no one really talks about counter, and most dismiss it. That's just the impression that I get, though.

I was wondering if there's a specific reason people shy from counter? I mean, I know the obvious. If you use it and nothing comes at you, you're wide open to basically anything. But if you KNOW it's coming, is there a particular benefit to a side-step dodge as opposed to a counter?
I guess it could be fairly situational.

However, when I'm up in the air and I'm about to be, or am in the process of being, combo'd, I tend to go for a counter as fast as possible. It seems fairly unexpected and there's not much the opponent can do in the way of counter-acting short of just not attacking.

I dunno.
Discuss. Or something.

 

[Schweppes]

It's just extremely situational. IMO it's most helpful against Falco and his lasers. Just watch out for dem sneak empty short hops. >_>

 

[Ryan-K]

ive used it to edgeguard link's up b and it also seems to work in marth dittos for edgeguarding but that mite just be the marths im fighting lol

it can also be used sometimes if the space animals are up bing from below by riding up the edge and hitting you which gives you a chance to jump out and fair them out of their up b

 

[Virgilijus]

But if you KNOW it's coming, is there a particular benefit to a side-step dodge as opposed to a counter?

There are very few times that I have played some one who is really good and known that it is coming because the very good players don't just have set combos that are easily forecast; the improvise most everything on the fly and they can think very quickly. Several times I tried to counter a friend of mine during his Falco SHL approach (and edge recovery) and I can honestly say that he could always back off at the last second and then combo me at will.

And if you can dodge and say grab or tilt or fsmash, then that is almost always the best course of action, especially if they are space animals at low percents where you can rack up quite a bit of damage with a single grab. Occasionally I've used counter to edgeguard, but downtilt and forward smash do a much better job on the whole.

 

[Mahjong]

i think da counter is perfect when ya know wat they going to do

it could just be me but i think its one of da most useful moves for marth.
its best on people who loves to use one type of combo onlly

 

[Selphious]

It's useful vs Roy and Marth when they try to upb back on the edge if they don't manage to sweet spot it. It's also pretty helpful against any projectile if you're close, like Samus's Missles (that's where I use it mostly).

 

[demonsbane105]

the counter becomes a little predictable after the first few times and leaves you wide open if you miss.

 

[Ikural]

I fight my one Marth using friend almost every day.
He knows my strategy almost as well as i do.
He could easily stop me(link/Jiggs) in the middle of comboing/WoPing
with a well placed counter.
But then, if he subbed it into his strategy, I would see it coming a lot.
Better to use it very rarely.

 

[Shai Hulud]

It's useful vs Roy and Marth when they try to upb back on the edge if they don't manage to sweet spot it. It's also pretty helpful against any projectile if you're close, like Samus's Missles (that's where I use it mostly).

But why would you counter when you can send them farther with a dtilt?

The main reason counter sucks is that even if it works, you can't really combo from it, and Marth is very much a combo-based character. It's good in a few edge-guarding situations like against Fox/Falco up-B from below as someone already mentioned. It's also useful against predictable characters like Falco. If he shines you and is jumping at you, you can bet he's going to try to dair you. If he is jumping at you as you're falling in general, he's going to dair, bair, or uair you.

 

[Velox]

The counter is a very good move if you use it in an intelligent manner. Pros predict a lot of generic predictable actions that you can exploit with the counter. For example, sometimes when you're being edge guarded and you are on the ledge, your opponent will try to bait you into ledgehoping an aerial with a low lag move (Marth's d-tilt, etc.), then they will wavedash back into a f-smash or something. You can act like you fell for the bait and just ledge hop a counter to counter their f-smash (or whatever).

So make a really predictable action and just counter after it when your opponent tries to punish you for it.

I feel like giving more examples...

Sometimes people predict you to jump whenever you get pressured by the ledge, so just jump into a counter to punish them for trying to punish you... heh.

Oh, and when people are being predictable with attacks, such as jabing everytime after they tech so that you can't grab them, just tech chase with a counter... it works.

There is no reason why you shouldn't be using the counter, it's highly underrated. Spamming the counter is of course a bad idea, but if you use it in a smart way like I've said just occasionally in your matches, it will throw your opponent off, as they are probably not used to a Marth doing this. It is guarenteed to make them more hesitant as well, and interupt their playstyle and make them second guess a lot of things they do, which is very good.

 

[Merkabah]

I don't use the counter very often b/c, yes, it will lead to you getting comboed/grabbed. When I do use it, I use it for some air attacks to protect my character's descent or to start a combo when the opponent is at low damage.

 

[Mahjong]

Counter is someties a blow to d opponents mind. for example:

-When you get countered u might start thinking about how to avoid being countered.

-when u get hit by a normal hit u know its just a hit, but a counter is unique, it gives u a sense dat your attack failed

-if a counter works on u when u thought u had a chance to hit the other guy but failed it could get u to think (even though they might not even use it again)

To wrap it up a counter should be used very little but would be great at a time to shut them up, when they in a mood to kill ya. Could be used to phych em out

Remember this only may work on those who think too much lol ^. ^

 

[Shai Hulud]

The counter is a very good move if you use it in an intelligent manner. Pros predict a lot of generic predictable actions that you can exploit with the counter. For example, sometimes when you're being edge guarded and you are on the ledge, your opponent will try to bait you into ledgehoping an aerial with a low lag move (Marth's d-tilt, etc.), then they will wavedash back into a f-smash or something. You can act like you fell for the bait and just ledge hop a counter to counter their f-smash (or whatever).

So make a really predictable action and just counter after it when your opponent tries to punish you for it.

I feel like giving more examples...

Sometimes people predict you to jump whenever you get pressured by the ledge, so just jump into a counter to punish them for trying to punish you... heh.

Oh, and when people are being predictable with attacks, such as jabing everytime after they tech so that you can't grab them, just tech chase with a counter... it works.

There is no reason why you shouldn't be using the counter, it's highly underrated. Spamming the counter is of course a bad idea, but if you use it in a smart way like I've said just occasionally in your matches, it will throw your opponent off, as they are probably not used to a Marth doing this. It is guarenteed to make them more hesitant as well, and interupt their playstyle and make them second guess a lot of things they do, which is very good.

But you usually have better options. For instance, you can ledgehop waveland to a shield-grab when they try to punish you. Then you can combo from the grab. Or you could spot dodge the F-smash and F-smash yourself. The counter isn't comboable in most situations.

 

[Velox]

For instance, you can ledgehop waveland to a shield-grab when they try to punish you. Then you can combo from the grab. Or you could spot dodge the F-smash and F-smash yourself.

Not that what you're saying is even the same thing that I'm talking about. The action of ledgehoping onto the stage is a mindgame that will bait their f-smash guaranteed. They might not even f-smash if they see you wavelanding onto the stage (but go ahead and try those two against a Marth anyways and see what happens, you will take the f-smash to the face everytime... they catch you right as your waveland starts before you get a chance to do anything). Ok, that might have sounded offensive, but I didn't mean it to be. Those two options may work on the Marths you play, but the ones I play catch you out of it everytime you try it.

Sometimes there is better options I guess, but anytime I see an opportunity to get any hits in against a high skilled opponent, I'll do it. It's good to diversify I guess. Against people that getting random hits in is nearly impossible (good people), a better option would involve me doing some other mindgame to actually get in a comboable hit in, but there is no reason why I should just abandon a quick hit and the instability it produces in the opponent. Plus in the edge guard position it got you out of a really bad situation.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Not that what you're saying is even the same thing that I'm talking about. The action of ledgehoping onto the stage is a mindgame that will bait their f-smash guaranteed. They might not even f-smash if they see you wavelanding onto the stage (but go ahead and try those two against a Marth anyways and see what happens, you will take the f-smash to the face everytime... they catch you right as your waveland starts before you get a chance to do anything). Ok, that might have sounded offensive, but I didn't mean it to be. Those two options may work on the Marths you play, but the ones I play catch you out of it everytime you try it.

Sometimes there is better options I guess, but anytime I see an opportunity to get any hits in against a high skilled opponent, I'll do it. It's good to diversify I guess. Against people that getting random hits in is nearly impossible (good people), a better option would involve me doing some other mindgame to actually get in a comboable hit in, but there is no reason why I should just abandon a quick hit and the instability it produces in the opponent. Plus in the edge guard position it got you out of a really bad situation.

I very rarely waveland unless the opponent isn't nearby. I usually ledge-hop a NAIR or just roll onto the stage. Honestly ledge-hopping and waiting for an F-smash is pretty **** risky, since it's much more likely they're going to dtilt you as soon as you jump if you're not attacking. Now you could do the counter during the ledge-hop, but then you run the risk of them just waiting you out and getting a tipper. It's just too risky.

Any situation on the ground where you can counter, you can also shield-grab. I don't see any legitimate uses of counter except for in the air or for edge-guarding.

 

[Sauce XIV]

I very rarely waveland unless the opponent isn't nearby. I usually ledge-hop a NAIR or just roll onto the stage. Honestly ledge-hopping and waiting for an F-smash is pretty **** risky, since it's much more likely they're going to dtilt you as soon as you jump if you're not attacking. Now you could do the counter during the ledge-hop, but then you run the risk of them just waiting you out and getting a tipper. It's just too risky.

Any situation on the ground where you can counter, you can also shield-grab. I don't see any legitimate uses of counter except for in the air or for edge-guarding.

Aside from screwing them over because they probably thought the same thing? At most, its purely situational, but it can help you make an opponent second-guess his actions, which is always good.

 

[Velox]

Honestly ledge-hopping and waiting for an F-smash is pretty **** risky, since it's much more likely they're going to dtilt you as soon as you jump if you're not attacking. Now you could do the counter during the ledge-hop, but then you run the risk of them just waiting you out and getting a tipper. It's just too risky.

It's true that it is pretty risky, but it's hard to be good if you don't take some risks. Almost everything in smash is taking a risk because the beauty of the game is that every (or nearly every) strategy and technique in the game can be countered and somehow gotten around (ie. everything is a risk, just some more than others, and I would have to agree with you that this is one of the riskiest.) Thats one reason why mindgames and being a really smart player is just so important in this game.

But really, the risk isn't as much as it would seem. Everytime I do this it works for me because it's like humanly impossible for the opponent to just suspect a counter in what's normally a "routine" f-smash lol. That is assuming you haven't counter before in the match or have done it very little. I dunno, there is the risk of death if punished, but the actual risk of being punished is very little with this technique I've found.

In the rare time that I do get punished for this is like when my opponent intends on waiting for me to land from my ledge hoped aerial and then roll or spot dodge to dodge what I think is the "inevitable f-smash", only to get f-smashed out of my roll/spot dodge. That's what would happen if I were to ledge hop an aerial, but in the case of the counter, they would just tip me out of it lol...
<_<
>_>
But waiting for the roll/spot dodge after a ledge hoped aerials isn't like the meta-game around where I live, especially with Marths. They almost always just f-smash you out of your aerial with the massive priority of their f-smash.

So yeah, in summary, countering can be used to put a stop to standard "routine" actions that lots of players have, because after all, routine actions creates consistency, so lots of good player can fall victim to it due to their consistency. Just don't abuse it where they question their routine activities.

Heh, I forgot to mention that countering works especially well at like 3 in the morning

Wow, I just made 3 intelligent posts... I don't know what came over me... I'm bored... I wanna smash... ...

 

[Mahjong]

dats a great way to put this huh?

btw countering could be replaced with a normal attack couldn't. Like instead of countering you could just attack because marth has such a long range. isn't this kinda true?

plz proove me wrong lol ^.^

 

[Hylian]

I just remember the Ken Pc vid where ken countered like 6 times in a row lol.

 

[demonsbane105]

is it just me or does the counter give the opponent a strange knockback pattern? i noticed that they'll go semi-upward then suddenly drop as if they tried to fast fall while tumbling helplessly instead of the regular pattern. though i've only used it against cpu's.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

A use for counter that apparently few people know about or use is for edgeguarding, particularly against fox/falco. It depends on the angle of fox/falco's recovery, but stand at the edge of the stage and counter if the opponent's recovery goes a bit over. It works kind of like a spike. You could also pull it off from the ledge by pressing down + B immediately, kind of like fox's down B shine + jump into fireball to infinite ledge invincibility stall... except without the difficult aspect.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I just remember the Ken Pc vid where ken countered like 6 times in a row lol.

Yeah, I saw this too. Falco is one of the most predictable characters in the game, and often you just want him to get the **** off you so you don't take 800 damage in 1 second so the counter is more appropriate against him.

 

[DuKe™]

I use counter to edgegaurd alot on chars such as marths foxs falcos links

 

[Scar]

is it just me or does the counter give the opponent a strange knockback pattern? i noticed that they'll go semi-upward then suddenly drop as if they tried to fast fall while tumbling helplessly instead of the regular pattern. though i've only used it against cpu's.

Yeah I remember one time I was playing a Marth Sheik and I couldn't kill him because Sheik at 180% is basically uncomboable... but I'm pretty sure I countered on a dash A on the left side of final, and she just flew fairly horizontally until she passed the edge, and then PLUMETTED.

It was awesome.