Updated Matchup Thread

[Double Helix]

I have noticed that most of the threads that are mentioned in the Ness boards were last posted upon in 2010. I believe some of the matchups have changed since then, mostly Marth and Fox, but I don't really know how true that is.

In any case, my least favorite matchups are Jiggs, Peach, Sheik, and Falco.

Jiggs. All I can try to do is SH fair forever until a nair kills. There is not really a way for Ness to edge guard Puff, and with his up-B being so slow, you see so many bairs you would think you are in a Forest. Jiggs is not really that bad of a matchup, recover high when you can, play on FoD, and on stage, get below her.

Peach. As much as you can do to Peach, that float is a nightmare, and from the way Armada changed the metagame for this character, it could be bad. Stay in range to punish a turnip pull, but do not get caught in a Dsmash. So how do we attack the float, and what can we do to best her on the ground?

Sheik. Seriously, Leffen thinks the neutral game is pretty even between these two characters, so what tools can we use to make this true? Is this even true?

Falco. The least bad of the four I mentioned in my opinion. Just take away FD, use platforms, and don't get shined. Still, Falco is a strong character. I feel more comfortable facing Fox than him though.

Marth. Specifically, how the matchup has changed. We finally figured out that if we out-space Marth, we can do something about that silly sword. I personally really like PK fire in this matchup, but fair is good for spacing, dash attack is good for getting him above you, and that big headed uair is good for some decent comboing at low percent. I don't hate this matchup that much anymore.

Fox. This character sucks, but isn't as bad as I thought. I think the goal here is really to not get grabbed. I found that if you can get a stock lead, dumb stuff can happen to a Fox that tries to edgeguard you. If you are going to get shine spiked anyways, do some silly PKT1 stuff to them. This character will out-maneuver you, so go somewhere with platforms. I really like Yoshi's surprisingly.

Falcon. I love this matchup. It is a lot of fun, and while I get combo'd a lot, at least I can combo him back.

Ice Climbers: I hate this matchup. I may just be awful at facing them, but I switch to Puff, so I won't be much help here.

Mario/Doc: The matchup seems fine, just don't get out maneuvered. Their bair is dangerous and their recovery will never do better than trade it seems unless the hitbox you use is disjointed. I find it a bit tough because I never get to recover high against these guys, but it could be worse.


Ganon: Smart shielding is key (for the way I play the matchup). Just make him think he outspaced you, and hope you aren't in too much shield stun I guess. I think I like down throw even at low percents, but if you can put Ganon into an edgeguard situation you should have a stock (though you may be edgeguarding for 2 minutes on Dream Land). I think I wouldn't want to go to FoD just because the platforms favor him more than you in my opinion.

Link: I hate this matchup. These projectiles make it really tough to maneuver due to the angles they can take, but if you approach carelessly, the Master Sword awaits you. This ruins progress. The best way is to try to stay above Link at a 45 degree angle. On FD, this isn't an option, you just have to wade through projectiles until you get a hit. Link is comboable, but it usually requires a D-throw or an utilt setup.

Samus: This matchup isn't terrible. It is far easier to maneuver through these projectiles than Link's, but make sure, like against Link, you approach cautiously. Take your time. Be patient. Be careful, it's a trap. If you approach carelessly, Samus will hit you hard. You really can't hope to combo, but you have to stay in close enough to punish projectiles, but far enough to get hit by her superior range.

Yoshi: This matchup is kinda silly. You need to do a lot of false approaches in my experience and know the deceptive movement of the DJC Yoshi wields. His DJC is slightly slower, but has far more maneuverability. When you knock him off and he camps the ledge, just get close so you can keep him from continuing to throw eggs, just don't do something stupid. Yoshi is fat and can CC a lot of moves, and he hits hard.

Feel free to add anything to what I said, and matchups. I don't know other matchups that well, so any added characters to the list will be great.

 

[PSI-Apocalypse]

Really Interesting and useful thread, in my personal experience I found that ganondorf it's so bad against ness, because his weight and size, it's easy to push him away using Fair like a combo, and also easy to edgeguard.

 

[Double Helix]

Ganondorf is a bit tough. He can be tough to edgeguard if they are good at recovering, and if you misspace a fair he will fair or bair or uair you. Let's be honest, his aerials hurt a lot. Overall not terrible, but he has a lot of tools. Not to mention if you let him grab you then he can chain grab you if you don't DI well

 

[PSI-Apocalypse]

mmm you're right, but I think Ness have more chances vs ganon than ganon on ness, what do you think?

 

[Double Helix]

I think that the matchup is in Ganon's favor. In many cases, it is really easy to edgeguard Ness. In Ness's game, I think good DI is more important than in most other characters' games (even though it is important regardless of what character) because his recovery is easily punished. His double jump is really good though. If you can get into a position that you can airdodge onto stage after a double jump then you are in a good spot. If you have to use PKT2 to recover, mix it up. Go high, sweetspot, aim for the character (seldomly). It is very important to recover differently if possible.

Long story short, the matchup is in Ganon's favor because Ganon can edgeguard Ness, and it can be tough to edgeguard with Ness. I prefer the Falcon matchup to the Ganon matchup honestly even though Falcon can just combo Ness.

 

[PSI-Apocalypse]

What about luigi? it's easy to combo with pk shove, and his recovering is awful.

 

[PSI-Apocalypse]

Yeah, ness recovering is so bad and leave him so vulnerable.

 

[Double Helix]

It depends on what hitbox(es) you hit with on the PK Shove. But as far as Luigi goes, I don't have much experience against him.

 

[PSI-Apocalypse]

I have some experience with him, since is my brother's main, and I win almost every match.

 

[Double Helix]

I have some experience with him, since is my brother's main, and I win almost every match.

Unfortunately, that is only your brother. You know his habits and you can do some things that other people would punish. But I don't have much to go on.

 

[PSI-Apocalypse]

oh, I see... so who wins this, luigi or ness? let's compare the abilities of both!

 

[Double Helix]

I am willing to assert that Luigi wins the matchup. He has more options. His movement is better. He is tough to combo due to sliding away and being really really floaty. I could tell you later. I hope I get to play a dude in a few weeks.

 

[PSI-Apocalypse]

ok, I'll also look for a match vs luigi.

 

[Double Helix]

I updated the original. I didn't get to face a Luigi last night unfortunately. Spacies still suck. I haven't figured out Sheik. Peach is rough. Falcon and Marth are still fine. The updates are in bold.

 

[PSI-Apocalypse]

what about ice climbers?

 

[Double Helix]

Like I said, I am just terrible at facing them. I felt very worthless against them, but I figured I should put it there anyways in case someone comes along with matchup knowledge that would be useful. I certainly don't know the matchup, and so far that is the only character I don't want to learn the matchup for as Ness. Ice Climbers are not someone I can help anybody with if they plan on using Ness.

 

[PSI-Apocalypse]

So, I'll look for match vs more characters, like mr. game and watch and others.

 

[Double Helix]

I realized I forgot to post a few of the matchups, so I unbolded the previous updates and bolded the current ones.

 

[The Mofo]

Ness has no favorable match-ups. And even if he does, they're in match-ups that don't really matter.

If you want to win, you have to know your match-ups, and consider the player vs. player along side the character vs. character. See what holes they have in their game, see what habits they have that you can prioritize on. Assess how well they know the matchup, and carefully choose opportunities when to exploit their lack of this knowledge.

 

[Double Helix]

Ness has no favorable match-ups. And even if he does, they're in match-ups that don't really matter.

If you want to win, you have to know your match-ups, and consider the player vs. player along side the character vs. character. See what holes they have in their game, see what habits they have that you can prioritize on. Assess how well they know the matchup, and carefully choose opportunities when to exploit their lack of this knowledge.

While that is true, I feel as though it would help to know what tools are available in some matchups. For instance, Peach is a matchup that is handled differently than Marth. Space animals are handled somewhat similarly, and Puff will always be an outlier. Ness has no favorable matchups, but people who are learning Ness could use a thread that is updated somewhat, and though I am the wrong person to be making it, it seems like it needed to be made.

Basically, rather than saying here are the good matchups, since we have maybe Kirby and Pichu, this thread is to assess what tools are best utilized in the matchups. We will eventually run into someone who knows the matchup, so what tools do we use then (since we have some, even though they may be limited). I guess it is worth asking how well you did against PC Chris back in the day. He must have learned the matchup eventually, so how did you combat his Fox or Falco once he learned it? Plus his Ness was pretty good, and he did pretty well against your Fox.

 

[The Mofo]

While that is true, I feel as though it would help to know what tools are available in some matchups.

That's what I'm saying, my doo. I'm not dismissing the conversation about finding tools in match-ups. I said:

If you want to win, you have to know your match-ups, and consider the player vs. player along side the character vs. character.

What I'm saying is that while you can get by with a character like Fox by not considering the player vs. player aspect of the game, you cannot ignore it with Ness. Does this Peach dsmash your shield out of habit? Free bair- save that for when you really need it. Does this Falcon think he can connect dthrow knee at low percent? Free uair- exploit this weakness wisely. Does this Falco know he can't shield grab your bair pressure? Go in for a grab.

You're required to shuffle around your advantages to cover your disadvantages, in accordance to who you are playing. This is what makes Ness a bad character. It's also one of the reasons I love playing Ness.

Winning a bike race with a unicycle is extremely satisfying.

 

[Double Helix]

Yeah. Sometimes I wish I could ride a unicycle.

Either way, I feel as though talking as though every person you face that knows this character matchup is the best way to handle it, even though you would almost always lose. Do you have any knowledge that refutes or adds to what I say in the original post? Ice Climbers knowledge would be great.

 

[Double Helix]

I figured I would restate something that has been known: Be patient. As Ness, capitalizing on your opponents' mistakes, or by conditioning them, you can start to combo people. So far, SDI has helped so much along with patiently spacing my opponents. It is tough against spacies, and so far I am still kinda bad against them, but I will have more info on them as I improve as a player.

 

[Double Helix]

After playing the Shiek matchup more and more, it is super difficult to get anything started. It is not letting me edit my post at the moment, so I will elaborate a bit here. Shiek is an awkward weight for Ness to deal with. So far, I have learned that until about 40%, u-throw is more useful for comboing than d-throw, but it is not nearly as good overall. Ness, as a character, seems to have those matchups that he has to play as a floaty, and matchups he can play a bit more like a fast faller. This is one of those floaty matchups it seems. Needles make this matchup an abomination, so you have to stay in a position where you can DJC fair if you are on even ground to punish needles, but still stay out of the dash attack range. That is actually impossible, but it is the threat that is important. I really enjoy the use of platforms in the matchup. Platform camp until they get impatient, then punish with...uair I guess. DJC bair works well against dash attack happy Shiek, but against a good one I have no idea what to do. Seems close to what to do in all Shiek related troubles, but maybe the platform stuff won't work normally. I will have to find time to play over in St. Louis. I will get more information then and hopefully get some videos up for critiquing.

 

[Double Helix]

Well, I went and played at Toasted Ravs 3. I got to play a lot of new people and had a blast! As for the Falco matchup, since I haven't been able to edit the original post since the update, I will make all updates here. So here goes:
Falco: FD is so helpful. The chaingrab allows for so much percent, and even though you get hit by lasers, that bird will get what is coming to him. When you are not on FD, I personally prefer Yoshi's Story, but that is due to lack of practice against people overall. I will find a "better" stage the more I play I hope.

Peach: This matchup does suck as much as people say. I learned a few things when I played her though. Never DJC a bair really low to try to punish the Dsmash.

More updates later. I need to get to class x.x

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

I played like 9 hours of streamed (i.e. recorded) friendlies this weekend, though mostly with my main atm, Falcon. However, I got at least a good hour+ most likely of Ness play, and while I wasn't playing amazingly with him since I haven't been focusing on him as much as Falcon lately, I did get some good practice and a few pretty good games probably. ( I'll probably sift through it gradually, and try to find some good games to link to in the vid thread for critique sometime :D )

The only MUs I played mainly were Ganon and Fox, and while I'm getting better at fighting fox somewhat, when they're technical enough and capable of keeping pressure on and following up shines, I get wrecked pretty hard...anyone that feels they have a strong grasp on how that matchup works care to give some advice?

I do have trouble vs. Ganon as well, mostly just because my friend mains Ganon, and his Ganon and skill in general are higher level than mine, especially than my Ness atm. It definitely isn't as rough as other matchups, and I have an okay handle on spacing/approaching and combos in that matchup, but maybe not strong, specific matchup knowledge (aside from the fact that Fair beats most of Ganon's moves/aerials). If anyone has more experience with Ness vs. Ganon as well, any advice/comments would be appreciated ^^

 

[Double Helix]

Fox is crappy until you figure out shines, and then it is just a bit less crappy. You wait for the shine and nair OoS. I really like treating this matchup very similarly to the Link matchup. Use the platforms to your advantage. One thing that I know will make the matchup better is improving with shield drops. Which is hard. Very hard. For me at least x.x If you can't shield drop well, that is fine. Be comfortable with having a small shield sometimes. Use retreating DJC fairs and change direction with DJC bairs or just use some retreating fairs. If you get a grab, do NOT let up. It's a free 80% at least (on FD), and usually 40% while you tech-chase and uair him. Uair and uthrow is ridiculously useful.

In the Ganon matchup, just don't get grabbed. Also, bait out the aerials. He definitely loves to try and outrange you with fadeaway fairs and other sad times where you get hit out of your DJC then edgeguarded, but if you bait out his aerials, the combos are very very nice (as you said).

I played a lot of the Marth matchup the other day. It was really awesome. Punish his approaches like he is Ganon, and if he tries to punish your approach, then...wait for it....

dash dance -> PK Fire.

That's right, PK Fire someone baiting an approach. Normally, if they jump over it, they can't get to you before you can at least shield. Never use it on really fast characters (though it is a good edgeguard to spacies that like to wall jump -> illusion back on stage.

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

Alright, thanks for the help! Those VODs I was talking about got deleted, but my Ness games were trash anyway, so maybe I'll post some friendlies for critique sometime when we record/stream again ^^

 

[Double Helix]

Seems good. I was playing Fox against a buddy who wants to learn Puff. After a bit I was like...I will play Ness against you. He was kinda scared because my Ness is so much better than my Fox. If only I knew how to handle the Sheik matchup. I will get there eventually. If I can ever get my capture card I will post matches.

 

[Double Helix]

I am gonna start a new thread for critique on my Ness, but I figured I would post a bit of matchup stuff.

Peach is just a Jiggs matchup, except worse. Play against the Peach just like you would a Jiggs though. Space her with fairs after baiting the aerials. There is an added bonus to Peach though, you get to stay close enough to punish her for pulling vegetables lol. Sound like fun? There is more. She can combo you fairly easily given Ness's weight. Also she is heavy. The bright side is, if you aren't very familiar with Peach, she is just a better version of Ness. Her projectile has less lag, her float cancel doesn't use a double jump, she is really heavy, her recovery is better, she likes using nair just like Ness, and she is better at chain-grabbing space animals. She even has a useless smash attack (forward smash), but her down smash makes up for it lol. A few other things: do not DJC unless it is reactively. If she sees you attempt to DJC bair and do it low like you would to shield poke, her dsmash beats out the bair.

tl;dr: Against Peach, bait her aerials then space her out with fair. You can combo fairs together on her. Nair OoS is still really good. Stay far enough out to not get hit with her float cancel combos, but close enough to punish pulling a turnip.

Also against Fox, just recover high or airdodge. It isn't worth it, to try and beat shine. You probably won't win lol.

 

[dan smith]

imo jiggz and samus are the worst. peach and marth and shielk and falco are all struggles but not as bad. game and watch and pikachu and kirby are surprisingly tricky. everybody else is about what you'd expect. ganon might actually be among the best matchups.

 

[Double Helix]

imo jiggz and samus are the worst. peach and marth and shielk and falco are all struggles but not as bad. game and watch and pikachu and kirby are surprisingly tricky. everybody else is about what you'd expect. ganon might actually be among the best matchups.

Samus really really sucks, but Jigglypuff is fairly simple. Just play more patiently than the Puff player, and focus on the weakness that Puff has: getting below her. Your uair is one of the strongest moves you have against Puff. Otherwise, space with fairs as her hitboxes disappear.

I don't know too many matchups like Pikachu and G&W, but I can't imagine that Kirby is that bad. Obviously, you can't sleep, but it isn't that bad. It's very similar to the Puff matchup (at least how I play it). After playing against Ganondorf more, the matchup isn't that bad, but all of his aerials are better than yours.

 

[LovinMitts]

I faced a decent Peach at a tourney recently, and I can say that down throw is a decent combo starter, and harassing with PK Thunder is useful for when they're floating offstage where it is unsafe to jump out to. Up air is a great KO move in this matchup because 1. Peach is floaty, and 2. DJC up air comes out so fast, you can catchm them off guard, and they won't DI correctly, killing early.

Be wary though, Peach will likely try to get you offstage and force you to actually use PK Thunder for recovery.

 

[Ganreizu]

The problem with PKT against peach is that she moves faster than the projectile so if you aren't going for her straight on or if she decides to mix up some things, she can go straight for you and punish. If you actually do hit and are in the situation where she's sent towards you it's harder to confirm into a follow up (if you're the sort to do stuff like that) because her float and fast nair can trip you up really easy.

 

[Double Helix]

Peach is an awkward matchup. Due to the size of your hitboxes it always seems like you trade with her, but facing her is a lot like facing a Jigglypuff. If you can get under her, she can't do anything substantial. So for that matchup, just play patient, play safe, and get under her. Bait out float cancels because you can fair combo her.

Can we talk about the Marth matchup? I thought I had it down. I was wrong. I don't have any idea what to do against a Marth that is well-versed in the matchup. This problem didn't really exist for me until I met a guy who plays a Project M Ness player. He said "The matchup is the same; just easier." That doesn't bode well for us. I like to think I've made progress (because I definitely have) and I have been more active in tournaments lately, but I really only want to pick a secondary against the Sheik matchup (because that one blows chunks).

 

[Peléo]

Sheik MU is difficult in my opinion, especially if she doesn´t approach. Needles destroy Ness, both on and off stage. DJC/SH Fair/Bair seem to work less than against other characters. Dash Attacks only work to a certain point and running U-Smash can get them off guard a couple times. I normally go to Yoshi/BF and ban FD/DL since plataforms help maneuvering and escape CG´s.

I actually like Jigglypuff matchup. It plays really patient and a bad trade result in death for Ness if the other player is decent. Smaller stages also benefit Ness in this Matchup. Plus, Jigglypuff is the most satisfying character to land a FSmash.

 

[Ganreizu]

I think jiggs is ness' best top tier matchup. A good puff will destroy you on recovery, but ness has a LOT more advantages against her compared to other top tiers. He has amazing kill options (bair, bthrow, uair, bat), more rest punishes that result in kills than i think any character (YYG, PKT2, charge bat, dair -> uair?), his grounded mobility makes him hard to catch, fair is pretty great and dair seems hard for her to deal with, and if you know you're going to get gimped or killed on recovery you can trade with PKT2 or uair and it will do major damage or maybe kill.

 

[Double Helix]

Well, the best actual rest punish is PK Flash. You have time to get the charge on it. As far as the Shiek matchup, I just go Fox. I temporarily switched my main to him anyway. I felt like I had hit a wall technically with Ness and felt held back by him finally. I still love playing Ness, but I am going to see if I have the skills to make it as far as I feel my skill will allow. Ness has lost a lot of his surprise factor in my experience. Project M has really allowed people to understand what tools he has in Melee.

In terms of the Shiek matchup with Ness though, use a lot of platform movement. She has better aerial hitboxes than Ness, but it is better than getting grabbed by a lot. Incorporate platforms and play like a floaty. It is really dangerous to play that matchup like a fast-faller since you leave yourself vulnerable to being on the same platform level as Shiek. My favorite move in this matchup is the Nair. I do think that the key to most matchups is to be under your opponent so you can put that big head to use.