Up B Out of Shield Without Auto-Jump Enabled

[lukifer]

I'm wondering how other players in the community feel about this technique as it relates to the control scheme. For those of you who don't know already, there are a handful of characters that essentially rely on this ability to be played at a high level, such as Bowser, G&W, Snake, etc.

I could be wrong about this, but I suspect that most players that use this technique regularly have auto-jump enabled, the reason being that the only other alternative is to perform the jump separately and then interrupt the start-up frames with up-B. This isn't impossible, but most characters, except maybe Bowser, have a short enough jump start-up that it's easy to miss the window. Personally I use X for jumping, so it makes this maneuver rather difficult to perform.

I realize that it's possible to play with auto-jump enabled, since you can't disable this in Melee, but it's always been my main beef with the smash bros. control scheme. I've always found it awkward to use the C-stick for up-airs to avoid wasting my double-jump.


So, my question is, if the PMBR could change the control scheme slightly so that up-B can be performed out of shield without auto-jump enabled and without manually perform the starting jump, can anyone think of a reason why this would be a bad idea? Personally I think it would be awesome, but I'm open to suggestions. It would also be nice if C-stick up could be used to perform up smashes out of shield, although I don't care about this once as much myself since I don't often play characters that utilize this well.

(Note: I realize that a valid counterargument is that advanced techniques should be reserved for the players that can perform them, and that's fair, but if it effectively requires using a specific control scheme then I think it's actually showing a flaw in the controls. Especially when the thing in question is auto-jump of all things.)

 

[Metà]

set a different button than x to jump. in brawl i used R, since i use L for everything else

 

[Kally Wally]

If you're turning off tap jump, you're using custom controls, and therefore you're working outside of the "standard" so to speak. Don't get me wrong, I also hate tap jump, but if you're changing the controls, they become your responsibility. All that said, I agree with Metà. These are my altered controls, for reference/inspiration:

Tap Jump OFF
Z Jump
Y Grab
R Attack (Only used for DACUS)
X Up-Taunt / Footstool

Actually, this isn't really accurate because I play on an emulator with a non-Gamecube controller, but that's what I would be using if that weren't the case.

 

[Nahpro]

I play G&W with tap jump off and I found a way to do OoS up+b that works well for me without altering any button inputs. Inside shield you can press up on the c-stick to jump. From there, it's not too hard to slide to the b button to input the up+b. These actions can be performed together fairly quickly to the point that my slow fingers have no trouble consistently performing this move. Overall, I feel like there are enough work arounds out there (especially this method that does not require a layout change) to make implementing a hard-wired change of the current mechanics sort of superfluous.

Now on the other hand if they could change those frame 1 dacuses so that I don't have to claw it...

 

[9Kplus1]

People still claw DACUS? That's so 2008

Also, just use X + Up + B like a normal person (I) would.

 

[Phaiyte]

I used to have some beef with tap jump until I realized that it's way more efficient than anything else on the control scheme ever will be except for an extra shield button set to Y.
I have up taunt on R but that's really as far that custom gets for me.

 

[SpiderMad]

yeah it's efficient for stuff so I keep it on, but the point people turn it off is it's annoying for stuff like doing aerial Up-b with ZSS without wasting my DJ. If tap jump somehow could be set to not trigger DJs/trigger while I'm in the air that'd be great.

 

[AbstractLogic]

honestly if you just jump with Y it's a pretty easy motion to slide your thumb down to B while holding up. try it.

 

[chaosscizzors]

I've been wondering for a while now why. They left in the up smash out of run with cstick. For a game that supposed to reward tech skill this seems rather counter intuitive, and just because running usmashes are easy to do the old way doesn't mean they should give players shortcuts like this.

So then my question, if you can do this with running usmash then why not with OoS options?

Edit: btw I used to do these things without tap jump in brawl but it was way easier with buffering. Even still it's possible to flub something like marth's upb OoS if you're not quick enough, and the timing between marth's upb and usmash OoS were somehow slightly different. Tap jump is just a lot easier and not hard to work around if you like doing aerials with the a button instead of the cstick. Just hold the direction you want during some start up frames or something or just whenever you're unable to fast fall/jump. I do this with falco's rising dair to prevent accidentally fast falling to death.

 

[teluoborg]

Because it was not in Brawl.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'd be pissed if running Up-smash couldn't be done with solely C-stick anymore. Luckily Leelue is in the BR

Also where have you been chaosscizors?

 

[MrBigstuff]

I've been wondering for a while now why. They left in the up smash out of run with cstick. For a game that supposed to reward tech skill this seems rather counter intuitive, and just because running usmashes are easy to do the old way doesn't mean they should give players shortcuts like this.

Because DACUS. More options equals more competitive depth. Plus it's so minor it probably just didn't warrant removing.

 

[chaosscizzors]

I've been around. Forgive me but have we met before? Your post seems to imply that. I know entirely too many people online.

And what does cstick out of run have to do with dacus exactly? By the logic of the OoS options needing either tap jump or a jump button press this isn't any different. Either learn to do it with tap jump or learn to do it with an extra button press. Shortcuts mang, shortcuts everywhere. Get some tech skill people.

 

[standardtoaster]

also lets you dash attack during the first 3 initial frames of dash by hitting cstick down

brooooken

 

[chaosscizzors]

Brokeness isn't part of my arguement. The pmbr's mission statement is. It's bassackwards.

Edit: besides, instant dash attack adds depth. Cstick out of run doesn't add anything.

 

[lukifer]

honestly if you just jump with Y it's a pretty easy motion to slide your thumb down to B while holding up. try it.

I'll give it a shot. At the moment I have Y bound to up taunt/footstool but I don't use it that often. I've always used X as my primary jump button but it definitely makes it difficult to slide input to B with that pesky A button in the way.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Brokeness isn't part of my arguement. The pmbr's mission statement is. It's bassackwards.

Edit: besides, instant dash attack adds depth. Cstick out of run doesn't add anything.

I seem to remember Cstick upsmash out of a run being explained on these forums pretty well, though I can't remember where it is. Overall, it seems more convenient than needing to JC into it every single time you wanna do something of that nature. I for one enjoy being able to do an upsmash while edging slightly forward without ever having a risk in jumping if you mistimed it.

To each their own though.

 

[chaosscizzors]

I think I'm missunderstanding a lot of these posts lol. I'm sorry.
How is it then that csitck usmash and instant da have to exisist together? It seems to me that the usmash part of it is special. The cstick is tap and a by default yes? But it seems to add a tap jump for running usmash or it's just ignoring the jump requirement altogether. Without tap jump on I would get a da doing the motion manually but the cstick remains unchanged. I guess I'm just confused on the properties of the cstick itself. Also a dacus doesn't use cstick up at all so I'm not sure how this is part of the discussion outside of this instant da thing. Someone please enlighten me.

Edit: inb4'd. Does anyone have a link to this explanation then?
Double edit: and now I'm curious about using the cstick for OoS options. I don't recall cstick up giving and OoS usmash, and for that matter what about csticking specials?

 

[MrBigstuff]

Well, I thought DACUS worked by exploiting the up smash out of dash mechanic, which is why you couldn't DACDS or DACFS and it doesn't work in Melee. I might be mistaken, though.

 

[chaosscizzors]

You are mistaken. A dacus is a dash attack canceled upsmash and it is actually present in melee iirc (shieks use this mechanic to get a boosted standing grab). So you jump cancel the initial frames of the dash attack to retain said attack's momentum while usmashing or grabing.

 

[hotdogturtle]

The whole reason that up-b works "out of shield" is because you're doing it out of a jump. Allowing you to press up-b while shielding without jumping is essentially saying that you can attack from a shield, which is entirely nonsensical and the implications would extend far beyond what you're asking and would change the entire way that the game is played.

 

[SpiderMad]

The whole reason that up-b works "out of shield" is because you're doing it out of a jump. Allowing you to press up-b while shielding without jumping is essentially saying that you can attack from a shield, which is entirely nonsensical and the implications would extend far beyond what you're asking and would change the entire way that the game is played.

not really, and it's out of jump squat to be more precise

 

[lukifer]

The whole reason that up-b works "out of shield" is because you're doing it out of a jump. Allowing you to press up-b while shielding without jumping is essentially saying that you can attack from a shield, which is entirely nonsensical and the implications would extend far beyond what you're asking and would change the entire way that the game is played.

When you put it that way it makes a little more sense to me, since you can't currently do any other attacks OoS without jumping first or dropping the shield. I don't think it would be a massive change as far as the meta-game is concerned though. All that this really would do from that perspective is make the attack come out what... 1 frame faster? I assume that most characters can cancel their jump into up-B after the first start-up frame. The point of the suggestion that I made is to make the control scheme a little more forgiving/flexible for the select number of characters that rely heavily on this technique.

Anyway, I have a better idea now of how other players perform this technique in practice so I'll experiment with my control scheme and see if I can come up with something that works for me.

 

[hotdogturtle]

not really, and it's out of jump squat to be more precise

It was clear what I meant; I just didn't want to weigh down my sentence with too many words so people would lose my main point.

When you put it that way it makes a little more sense to me, since you can't currently do any other attacks OoS without jumping first or dropping the shield.

That's what I was aiming for, just putting your idea into a different perspective. I know that you were only trying to suggest a different method of performing an action with an alternate control scheme (and I'm not holding anything against you), but yeah, I'm just showing that they way you suggested it turns into a bigger change than you thought.

 

[Magus420]

C-stick up in dash/run doing an u-smash is actually doing a dash attack -> u-smash, with the single input causing the dash attack and then immediately canceling out of it without getting to see it happen. If you remove the ability to cancel dash attack into u-smash c-stick up just does a dash attack instead.

 

[chaosscizzors]

So it does two inputs and adds a tap jump to the latter? That's bizzare. Seems like you could just crop out the latter input or something.

It's not really important. I just found it ironic that a simple tech was made simpler.

 

[Rarik]

If I read Magus' post correctly then there isn't even a tap jump involved with Usmash out of run. Since brawl allowed Usmash to cancel a Dash Attack within the first couple frames it's just simply DA--> instant Usmash similar to a DACUS except DACUS has a few frames of DA before you cancel it giving you a boost in momentum/movement.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by my understanding of Magus' post.

 

[chaosscizzors]

I think you're correct. It's been so many years since I played brawl but I think I used to dacus without tap jump, I had just forgotten about it. I'm still curious about other cstick settings like specials but that topic can be saved for another thread or something.