Unpopular opinion: Pichu is not top tier

faf_

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#1
Despite getting incredible results thus far, I do not believe pichu is top tier. He has too many exploitable weaknesses, such as his low range and minuscule weight (dying at 30 to an f smash is not fun). This causes him to lose to most characters with anything more than slightly larger range, and I personally have trouble against heavies and zoners especially. Overall a great character with his combos, killpower, and edgeguarding, but probably on the upper end of high tier rather than top.
 

Downshift

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#2
I'd probably consider Top Tier to be the top 10%, so top 8 characters at most.
So which 8 are better than Pichu if he's not Top?
 

Kybou

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#4
(In no particular order) Peach/Daisy, Wolf, Snake, Lucina, Olimar, Pika, Fox, and Wario.
Technically wouldn’t that be 9 characters because peach and daisy are different characters within the roster.
 

faf_

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#5
Technically wouldn’t that be 9 characters because peach and daisy are different characters within the roster.
No, as Peach and Daisy are echos with literally no differences, unlike echos such as marthcina which have completely different properties.
 

Sean²

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#6
I think most mains of good characters share your sentiments. I’d argue Wolf has more exploitable weaknesses than Fox, Lucina, or Pikachu. Of which those 3 characters do very well at exploiting, but it doesn’t stop people from putting him top 5. Dying to a Dr. Mario pill catching your jump isn’t fun either.

In that regard, I’d still consider Pichu top tier - but not in an archaic ordered tier list. In a tier quadrant chart however, all the characters you listed are top tier, but would vary on where they sit between “well rounded” and “has faults” side of things. Wolf and Pichu would be closer to the Has Faults side of things. They’re both obviously monsters in neutral but both have flaws that were found very early on. Fox and Pikachu would be on the Well Rounded side (a side that I think will eventually edge out in the long run tbh). As is basically the same with several other echoes and semi-clones - e.g. Lucina is extremely well rounded and extremely good. Marth is good too, but his tipper mechanic gives him some added faults, so he’d probably fall closer to the other side.

I know I veered off from Pichu a bit, but his strengths onstage are monstrous. It’s undeniable. He's likely going to be top tier - at least for a good while - until the meta develops more. Ness was top tier in 64 but slowly fell off as the meta developed and people began exploiting his recovery. Zelda was high tier in Melee before falling off. G&W and ROB were top in Brawl before falling off hard. So barring any major balance patch changes, I could see Pichu, Wolf, and Marth falling off a bit eventually. In the game as it is today. But that's the kicker with balance patches, as we saw with Smash 4. Too many changes can throw a wrench in the meta overnight.
 

Kybou

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#7
No, as Peach and Daisy are echos with literally no differences, unlike echos such as marthcina which have completely different properties.
They still hold different spots in the roster and should be considered different characters.
 

Downshift

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#8
They still hold different spots in the roster and should be considered different characters.
Not if we're ranking them in a tier list. You could argue that Marth/Lucina should have different tier spots due to the tipper mechanic, or even that Samus/Dark Samus should have different tier spots due to their hurtbox, hitbox and roll data being slightly different. But others like Peach/Daisy, Simon/Richter are more like clones that would rank at the same spot in a tier list.

(In no particular order) Peach/Daisy, Wolf, Snake, Lucina, Olimar, Pika, Fox, and Wario.
Hmmm, I don't know that I'd rank Pikachu above Pichu. If the game was balanced correctly and Pichu actually did less damage and knockback, then yeah. But as it stands, Pikachu is still tied for 5th lightest in the game, out of 75 characters. He still lacks range but isn't quite as fast or elusive as Pichu.
 

faf_

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#9
Not if we're ranking them in a tier list. You could argue that Marth/Lucina should have different tier spots due to the tipper mechanic, or even that Samus/Dark Samus should have different tier spots due to their hurtbox, hitbox and roll data being slightly different. But others like Peach/Daisy, Simon/Richter are more like clones that would rank at the same spot in a tier list.


Hmmm, I don't know that I'd rank Pikachu above Pichu. If the game was balanced correctly and Pichu actually did less damage and knockback, then yeah. But as it stands, Pikachu is still tied for 5th lightest in the game, out of 75 characters. He still lacks range but isn't quite as fast or elusive as Pichu.
Pika has more range and easier combos that are just as efficient. Pichu needs insane timing that will never be 100% accurate.
 

Downshift

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#11
Pika has more range and easier combos that are just as efficient. Pichu needs insane timing that will never be 100% accurate.
Pikachu doesn't seem as rewarding for it though, and more like Sheik; struggles to get the KO more than Pichu does. Plus, I don't know that I would consider a high learning and optimization curve to lower a character's tier list standing. It's only been a couple months. By this summer or so, people will have optimized both Pichu's combos and movement where its weaknesses can't really be easily exploited. Whenever I try Pichu and lose, it's always because of something I did, not a limitation of the character. Even when I get hit with a kill move and die at 60% due to Pichu's weight, Pichu would have been able to avoid the attack if I had better control over its movement. As opposed to playing Samus or Zelda where the frame data and movement make it impossible no matter how good I am.
Basically, I think Pichu has a higher ceiling than Pika and therefore a higher tier rank.
 

chipndip

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#13
Insane combo game that kos at 80%. Also is a strong pick to a lot of characters that can't hit small targets well, which includes Palutena. How's he not a contender for top tier?

Like...my guy, his neutral b hits for 12% per hit...
 

faf_

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#14
Insane combo game that kos at 80%. Also is a strong pick to a lot of characters that can't hit small targets well, which includes Palutena. How's he not a contender for top tier?

Like...my guy, his neutral b hits for 12% per hit...
Only if it doesn’t hit the ground.
Just learn to hit him better, palu is a bad matchup for Pichu.
 

chipndip

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#15
Only if it doesn’t hit the ground.
Just learn to hit him better, palu is a bad matchup for Pichu.
You can "just learn to hit" anyone better. Doesn't negate the fact that Pichu has some of the best combo pressure in the game, some of the highest KO potential in the game, good speed, and a very low profile. Sure he's light and has low reach, but his high speed makes up for those things.

If you don't see why Pichu's a top tier contender, you aren't fighting good Pichu players. Pichu's a glass cannon, and a very effective one at that.
 

BlueJaySSB

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#16
It's an unpopular opinion, because it's a pretty bad one. He's hard to hit and can get you to kill percent faster than you can say Top Tier.
Just learn to hit him
And idk about this statement man. That's a tough task when you're facing an elite player with amazing movement ability. The results really speak for themselves.
 

Downshift

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#17
You can "just learn to hit" anyone better. Doesn't negate the fact that Pichu has some of the best combo pressure in the game, some of the highest KO potential in the game, good speed, and a very low profile. Sure he's light and has low reach, but his high speed makes up for those things.
His KO potential is why he's broken. It's like the one key difference keeping Pichu and Sheik so far apart on the tier list.
Nerf Pichu's KO power down to Sheik's and he'll drop 30 spots guaranteed.
 

Dcas

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#18
It's an unpopular opinion, because it's a pretty bad one. He's hard to hit and can get you to kill percent faster than you can say Top Tier.


And idk about this statement man. That's a tough task when you're facing an elite player with amazing movement ability. The results really speak for themselves.
Well said, that you struggle vs certain stuff means absolutely nothing. The state of the meta will always be defined by the top players like it or not, until pichu is proven to be "high tier" as you say then your argument is only a bad opinion.
 

MangoPeachey

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#19
Well said, that you struggle vs certain stuff means absolutely nothing. The state of the meta will always be defined by the top players like it or not, until pichu is proven to be "high tier" as you say then your argument is only a bad opinion.
how does one "prove" it?
 

BlueJaySSB

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#21
Pichu constantly out of top 16/8 in majors, super majors, etc.... The opinions of SEVERAL top players

Its not rocket science.
Not only that, there's data that suggests these things. This is how the general consensus is made. Frames, Hit boxes, Hurt boxes, speed damage. Like you can compare Pichu and lets say Roy(High Tier) and see which one is better based off of just in game data. There's a lot that goes into these things. Knowledge is power my peeps.
 
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Xquirtle

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#22
If you're basing your opinion on your personal experience online, then sure, Pichu is not even high tier. We have layered metas where the lower the skill level goes, the lower Pichu would be on that hypothetical tier list. Pichu does not make a bad player better. He makes bad players worse and only shines in the right hands. He's also severely nerfed in online play by lag.

If you're talking about super major top 8 meta, then he is clearly one of the best characters in the entire game, if not the single best. He has a zero to death infinite that works on almost everybody and its just a matter of time before we see it mastered. He has incredible combo potential, incredible kill power, one of the best recoveries in the game to enable off stage play, insane frame data and out of shield play, one of the best projectiles in the game, and a tiny hurt box. All of this is counter balanced by dying early and his range, but he has all of the tools and more to be light and small and still dominate most matchups. He has the means to exploit the weakness of virtually every other character in the game. Being small with elite frame data, recovery, and massive kill power is like checking all of the boxes to be S tier in a smash game. See SSB. SSBM, SSBB, and Tr4Sh tier lists.
 

PimpLuigi

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#23
Pika has more range and easier combos that are just as efficient. Pichu needs insane timing that will never be 100% accurate.
False. No elite player not named Esam thinks Pikachu is better than Pichu. NO ONE. Pichu just wrecks. Actually Voids Pichu beat Esams pika. Both amazing players, but Pichu> Pikachu.

The lightness is the biggest problem, I'd still say Pichu is top 10
 

MangoPeachey

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#25
All I can say for sure is that Pichu has INSANE potential to kill early (thunder offstage, down air spike, fsmash, dragdown bair or fair gimps), Pichu can be hard to hit sometimes, and has some decent tournament results. Does that sound like a top tier?
 
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Dcas

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#26
Funny you should mention that, here is the opinion of several top players... notice a trend?
https://youtu.be/H4Xw79W9ES8
I mean, at this point all tierlists and everything points to pichu being top 3-5 and in my personal opinion he is there as well. Yes he dies from everything but so does other glass cannons from other games such as Akuma and yet he is top tier.

So the debate should focus on "how top tier" or if he is top2-3, anyone saying otherwise is probably just a bad player.
 

chipndip

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#27
His KO potential is why he's broken. It's like the one key difference keeping Pichu and Sheik so far apart on the tier list.
Nerf Pichu's KO power down to Sheik's and he'll drop 30 spots guaranteed.
Sure, but they won't. Why? Because Sheik has better reach and weight AND Pichu hurts himself. Even if they did nerf his KO pressure, they'd still keep it "high".
 

Downshift

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#28
Sure, but they won't. Why? Because Sheik has better reach and weight AND Pichu hurts himself. Even if they did nerf his KO pressure, they'd still keep it "high".
As long as Pichu's damage and knockback is less than Pikachu's across the board, I'd be OK with it.
 

chipndip

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#29
As long as Pichu's damage and knockback is less than Pikachu's across the board, I'd be OK with it.
They won't do that. Like I said, Pichu's already riskier than Pikachu...or literally anyone else in the game, so the boon for dealing with that is higher damage and knock back.

Even if they nerfed him somehow, somewhere, he's still going to be fast with high damage and early KOs. That's what he does.
 

MangoPeachey

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#33
I think giving characters more options is better than taking away options, crying for nerfs will only water down the game unless the mechanic that is being nerfed has literally 0 counterplay (which I'm not sure is possible, there is always counterplay imo). Not every character has to have the same tools and options, if you think it isn't fair that Pichu can kill you early then I don't know what to tell you.
 
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Fiorello

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#37
Haha for real. The combos will never be accurate? Dude go to a tournament and get wrecked by someone who is just so far above your skill that it’s ridiculous. And then watch that guy who just washed you like it was nothing get crushed in the same way. And so on and so forth. The level of skill achievable in this game is unbelievable and people still think that there’s a single combo in this game that won’t be optimized by someone to the point of complete mastery then you should get used to being surprised.
 
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#38
Well said, that you struggle vs certain stuff means absolutely nothing. The state of the meta will always be defined by the top players like it or not, until pichu is proven to be "high tier" as you say then your argument is only a bad opinion.
Still his opinion, m8. Unless he's actually wrong about something, I don't think it's worth complaining about.

Pichu constantly out of top 16/8 in majors, super majors, etc.... The opinions of SEVERAL top players

Its not rocket science.
Well, it is an opinion. You can't really prove one.
 
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Gamer Cube

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#39
One smash attack, and I mean one smash attack, is all it takes to kill Pichu with my mains, his is absurdly light, and doesn't have good dodge ability like Jigglypuff.
 
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