Underrated Beast

[Im Fragbait]

I understand that pichu is not great not even within the top 15 but seriously 25th? Thats ridiculous there is not a chance in hell pichu is worse that bowser, zelda, ness or mewtwo ... okay maybe mewtwo xD but still i think that this character has untapped potential to be good or at least usable in tournament, SO CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT THE PROBLEM IS WITH PICHU

 

[Comet7]

people underrate him like crazy because he's easy to combo outside of being small, dies faster than a lame joke like kirby, and doesn't have a lot of range. he also can't do too much off his combos (his punish game is still okay though) save for when against fast fallers. there's also the omnipresent WTF HE DAMAGES HIMSELF thing going on.

i'm beginning to think pichu is somewhere along the lines of m2k's tier list, though probably not quite 19th (i'm looking at one of mewtwo and g&w here).

 

[Im Fragbait]

people underrate him like crazy because he's easy to combo outside of being small, dies faster than a lame joke like kirby, and doesn't have a lot of range. he also can't do too much off his combos (his punish game is still okay though) save for when against fast fallers. there's also the omnipresent WTF HE DAMAGES HIMSELF thing going on.

i'm beginning to think pichu is somewhere along the lines of m2k's tier list, though probably not quite 19th (i'm looking at one of mewtwo and g&w here).

I think he can combo great but at the same time he gets comboed like crazy and I DO THINK MOST OF HIS RANKING IS DUE TO THE HE DAMAGES HIMSELF STIGMA, ITS NOT EVERY MOVE JUST A FEW OF THEM.

also ... HIS FSMASH DOE

 

[Comet7]

I think he can combo great but at the same time he gets comboed like crazy and I DO THINK MOST OF HIS RANKING IS DUE TO THE HE DAMAGES HIMSELF STIGMA, ITS NOT EVERY MOVE JUST A FEW OF THEM.

also ... HIS FSMASH DOE

it's not that only a few of them damage him, it's that he should be dead whenever you get a hit that can convert reasonably well on him so damaging yourself doesn't matter that much.

yeah it's nice but it can be SDI'd. having frame 9 fox up smash with a bit less range is nicer imo.

 

[Im Fragbait]

it's not that only a few of them damage him, it's that he should be dead whenever you get a hit that can convert reasonably well on him so damaging yourself doesn't matter that much.

yeah it's nice but it can be SDI'd. having frame 9 fox up smash with a bit less range is nicer imo.

I think hes got potential to be good you just gotta choose your attacks wisely ... he can also gimp like a god, and has a good recovery.

Can pichu really get zero-death that easily?

 

[Comet7]

I think hes got potential to be good you just gotta choose your attacks wisely ... he can also gimp like a god, and has a good recovery.

Can pichu really get zero-death that easily?

yeah that's the general rule when you're playing a low tier.

eh maybe not quite zero to death by everyone, but sheik and falco can generally destroy us if they don't mess up the chaingrab/pillar. falcon has a chaingrab that leads to knee, marth's marth things kill us realllllllly fast, i don't want to talk about ICs, i don't think fox can do it from zero but dair goes into up smash/grab to whatever so that's fast. ganon can convert from grabs and we're really light so that's not good but not tooooo big. uh...jiggly can/can't really do it (i don't know much about this since i haven't done too much but i think you can avoid chained aerials by DIing away) but can do really annoying jiggly things that's really hard to deal with. also keep in mind that pichu is really light both horizontally and vertically.

tldr: most top tier characters can do at least a lot and generally beat us in neutral + light weight = dies fast. maybe not fox combo'd by falco fast but it's noticable.

on the bright side we have decent mobility and a great SHFFL as well as kill power and good throws and gimp game, so at least pichu has the tools for success. i guess a good way to put pichu in general would be that he has just enough tools to win but also has all the tools to lose unlike other low/bottom tiers who don't have the tools to win.

 

[Im Fragbait]

PICHU WILL RISE AND BE AWESOME BECAUSE I SAID SO sdkfjl;ahysdfjhwe'\fa

 

[DerfMidWest]

PICHU WILL RISE AND BE AWESOME BECAUSE I SAID SO sdkfjl;ahysdfjhwe'\fa

trust me, you are certainly not the first to say that.
Pichu's alright if people don't understand what his actual options are.
He has a few strengths going for him that you can easily abuse if opponents don't respect them, but if they do, it gets a lot harder.

he's probably better than like... bowser, maybe ness. Probably roy (but people aren't willing to admit that he's the worst character in the game yet) despite actually slightly losing that matchup.

 

[SwiftOfDaSouth]

trust me, you are certainly not the first to say that.
Pichu's alright if people don't understand what his actual options are.
He has a few strengths going for him that you can easily abuse if opponents don't respect them, but if they do, it gets a lot harder.

he's probably better than like... bowser, maybe ness. Probably roy (but people aren't willing to admit that he's the worst character in the game yet) despite actually slightly losing that matchup.

Preach. I actually think that if we had some aMSa and Axe players, aka people who devote all their time to the character, Pichu would be pretty good bruh. 30XX Pichu revolution.

 

[Im Fragbait]

Preach. I actually think that if we had some aMSa and Axe players, aka people who devote all their time to the character, Pichu would be pretty good bruh. 30XX Pichu revolution.

One day ... I WILL WIN A TOURNAMENT WITH PICHU

 

[DerfMidWest]

Preach. I actually think that if we had some aMSa and Axe players, aka people who devote all their time to the character, Pichu would be pretty good bruh. 30XX Pichu revolution.

No. We'd just have a Triple R for pichu.
I think you're vastly overlooking how limited the character really is.

 

[Im Fragbait]

No. We'd just have a Triple R for pichu.
I think you're vastly overlooking how limited the character really is.

HES NOT LIMITED HE HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE A GOD CHARACTER XD DONT DOUBT HIM LMFAO

 

[DerfMidWest]

HES NOT LIMITED HE HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE A GOD CHARACTER XD DONT DOUBT HIM LMFAO

calm down dude.
I don't even know who you are rofl.

but every character has limitations, especially lower tiered characters like Pichu.
Your job as the player is to learn to work around your own limitations and exploit your opponent's character's own limitations. The major problem you run into with Pichu is just that the vast majority of his opponents are able to abuse his major flaws more easily than he can abuse theirs.

a prime example would be when playing against falcon.
Pichu can CG falcon on fd, combo him pretty heavily provided he lands a solid hit, and edgeguard falcon easily if he manages to get him off stage.
However falcon has a much more powerful cg on Pichu, combos pichu even harder (which usually ends in knee, which kills pichu around 60%), and can wall Pichu out with nair and DD grab, basically shutting Pichu's puny ranged approach down.

This kind of thing is super evident in every single one of Pichu's high tiered matchups, mid tiered matchups, and many of his low tiered matchups as well.

 

[the muted smasher]

Falcon can't d throw punish pichu if You always get the hard di and upair ac out but if You don't react in time You do get train wreaked.

Thank You for saying roy is the worst in the game he has the most unwinnable mu in the game by far.

Honestly how I break down some mus is making 2 ratios, one for how the neutral game goes and another for the punishment game.

On the punishment side You have to be honest yeah zedla can chain throw fox and likly always make grab - death. But honestly you'll mostly only get a few signal hits that don't lead to anything and that's what makes up the bulk of the ratio.

I just think pichu has a losing ratio punishment wise vs neatly the whole cast. So before starting the neutral losing the punishment war does change a lot mostly in their favor. Like peach/samus live longer and get more time to adapt/counter because You hit them so gentlely.

 

[SwiftOfDaSouth]

Falcon can't d throw punish pichu if You always get the hard di and upair ac out but if You don't react in time You do get train wreaked.

Thank You for saying roy is the worst in the game he has the most unwinnable mu in the game by far.

Honestly how I break down some mus is making 2 ratios, one for how the neutral game goes and another for the punishment game.

On the punishment side You have to be honest yeah zedla can chain throw fox and likly always make grab - death. But honestly you'll mostly only get a few signal hits that don't lead to anything and that's what makes up the bulk of the ratio.

I just think pichu has a losing ratio punishment wise vs neatly the whole cast. So before starting the neutral losing the punishment war does change a lot mostly in their favor. Like peach/samus live longer and get more time to adapt/counter because You hit them so gentlely.

Can you elaborate a little more on Roy? What's the deal with his MU?

 

[Comet7]

Can you elaborate a little more on Roy? What's the deal with his MU?

i'm fairly sure that roy vs ice climbers is atrocious, even more so than pichu vs ice climbers.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Pichu is definitely not as bad as everyone says he is. His launching power is ridiculous, and I honestly think the 'he damages himself' point is moot, since he's so easy to kill in the first place... But that's a bad thing in its own sense... crap

Nonetheless, I somehow do better with Pichu than with any other Melee character and that's just how things are for me, really.
He ain't bad.

 

[the muted smasher]

Can you elaborate a little more on Roy? What's the deal with his MU?

Ics roy roy can't do anything safe on their cc game nor grab really and really why marth is good vs ics is because tipper d tilt is safe on their shield and that makes spacing world's harder even more when fair is decent to stop their other oos options.

Then there's the fact I down-b wall as ics and have the reward of an easier than average grab and what can roy do and what do he do when he risks his whole stock?

Peach cc is to real and just float nulls out his ground game other than dding and roys jump is also very slow something I look for when I play peach. Just she wreaks him so hard in the neutral and punishment wise then she can nair out of combos and roys counter is slow and is a poor mix-up when You compare it to how other deal with nair out of combos.

M2 can do everything roy can do in the mu but hit 2 times harder(d tilt combos) and really just lives and lives and lives and can honestly play a run away game.

Puff can rest at any point and basically marth vs puff is if puff ccs any move she can rest him other than grab (ducked) retreating air moves and spaced d tilt and f-smash.

Now try that as the lighter roy where she can cc both of those and that's not even playing the insane shield/air game.

Samus roy. Is like m2 but a better cc.

Idk about roy vs luigi but just sounds like crap but You could??? Gimp him so likly doable.


Pichu is terrible but he has a way in and safe moves on shields and cc if he prepares. He doesn't just default lose the neutral many times while rot is better vs sheik and a few other match-ups are much more impressive along with that dd.

Just I think overall answers are better than good options only vs 3/4 the cast then losing the punishment game hard.

I am extreme as pichu when I'm playing well. Vs ics I'll dd near the down b and read a movement forward or empty jump forward so f-smash will whiff up close and low nair. Also f-smashing nana in the right way is mad clutch cause its the strongest in the game and popo kind of has to wait it out most the time.

The trick to playing pichu is to nair better and know everything about them before You start and rapidly adapt get lazy you'll lose hard as hell

 

[Acryte]

He ain't bad.

Pichu's not bad. He's terrible. It's just that some players are more terrible than pichu.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I lost interest in this thread a long time ago, but in response to the "falcon can't dthrow punish pichu"

what in the world are you talking about. He can straight chaingrab pichu until high percent.
Regardless of being a true combo, dthrow->knee, dthrow->nair, and dthrow->dair are all pretty guaranteed on Pichu even if you hard DI away and uair (you should be nairing most of the time, btw. It's still faster by 1 frame, even if it lacks the disjointed hitbox.)

but yeah. Falcon's dthrow is amazing against Pichu.
Uthrow->knee is like always free though for sure.

 

[the muted smasher]

When I got the di right falcon players could never punish me even hax$ ran into upair 3 times in one match.

 

[DerfMidWest]

that's just not correct... the only reason that works is because the falcon is messing up, which is viable since they probably aren't used to playing against Pichu, but they can punish that DI.

 

[Im Fragbait]

PICHU WILL RISE!!! HE SHALL WREAK HAVOC ON EVENT HUBS!!!!

 

[EddyBearr]

I think Pichu has an advantage on Donkey Kong.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I dunno. Green ranger wrecked my **** way too much back when I mained Pichu.
I think pichu does reasonably well against DK.
But DK can just do this thing where he walls you out.

The matchup is basically baiting stuff out by making DK approach you, then tech chasing him until high percent.
But Pichu has to put in like 4 times as much work to get a kill on DK.

gimping him is pretty much impossible unless you land some jank fsmash.
I have a lot of thunder gimmicks to deal with his recovery, but thunder tricks are almost never guaranteed.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

When using FSmash by the edge, you can get your opponent to SDI away from the edge, to avoid getting bopped by the last hit. This is useful on fast-fallers, because they can either lose vertical height, or be launched to death or far away by SDI'ing towards/nothing.
IRRELEVANT

 

[DerfMidWest]

they can also SDI up and then airdodge back to the stage and avoid being punished, but most people don't do that.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

they can also SDI up and then airdodge back to the stage and avoid being punished, but most people don't do that.

just like Ness, if they don't know the matchup, They'll fail

 

[DerfMidWest]

just like Ness, if they don't know the matchup, They'll fail

well there are a lot of things they can still do to avoid fsmash anyway like SDI down, wait a second, then sweetspot the ledge.
But in general, people have trouble avoiding it, which makes it viable.
You can also kinda follow the SDI out if they don't know some of the tricks with it.

some characters can straight SDI through Pichu to avoid getting hit though, which is annoying.

I find it best if you just time the Fsmash so that only the final hit connect, which is very doable on spaceys/falcon/ganon and a few other characters.

 

[proxibomb]

Hi, I'm back for more Pichu. Can we discuss his amazing nair, please?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Nair is frame 3 and has 6 frames of landing lag.
+1 on shields.
Good move.
etc. etc. etc.

 

[Comet7]

doesn't pichu spin around 10 times during his nair or something like that

 

[DerfMidWest]

dude pichu is always spinning.

 

[NIFOFD]

I love Pichu to death, but yall are downright delusional with all this talk about him being tournament viable. Maybe he isn't as horrible as the tier list indicates, but he is completely outclassed against all of the top tier characters (and quite frankly most of the low tier ones too).

The only reason a good top-tier player would lose to an equal skill Pichu is MU inexperience. And also keep in mind that the more the Pichu metagame is developed, the more developed the strategies for playing against Pichu will become.

The character has potential, but so long as he is outmatched against the characters that you actually see in tournament play, the most we can expect of him is a small rise in the tier list.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I love Pichu to death, but yall are downright delusional with all this talk about him being tournament viable. Maybe he isn't as horrible as the tier list indicates, but he is completely outclassed against all of the top tier characters (and quite frankly most of the low tier ones too).

This part of your post was 100% accurate.

The only reason a good top-tier player would lose to an equal skill Pichu is MU inexperience. And also keep in mind that the more the Pichu metagame is developed, the more developed the strategies for playing against Pichu will become.

This part is significantly less accurate (talking about the second sentence here). The game doesn't work in the "equal and opposite effect" kinda way. Even for garbage low-tiers. Pichu has a lot of tools that solve problems, and many characters can't challenge those. He's still terrible, but as he develops, fighting him remains almost exactly the same.

The character has potential, but so long as he is outmatched against the characters that you actually see in tournament play, the most we can expect of him is a small rise in the tier list.

I also agree 100% with this part, as I would imagine most sane players on this board do.
The fanatical players you see post on these boards rarely stay around or even accomplish much with the character.
The vast majority of Pichu players who stick around are more interested in playing the character more than success, and will readily admit that their character is limited.