Two Problems: Requesting general mid level play help, and matchup inexperience.

[obiiieis19]

I find fun in playing the game, but recently i've been watching quite a bit more VGbootcamp and want to get a bit better. I can pick up on some of the things these players do, pinpoint their weaknesses. But I still have my own.

I can't get it in my mind to consistently punish options and shield before kill percent, and I use unsafe moves often on the person shielding, i'm not the best at teching, so after this i'll check other's strats but I'll take advice here. Including controls, keep in mind I prefer jumping with shoulder button and use gamecube.

I tech with Y and grab with Y. ZL + ZR is shield, x is still jump, high flick.

So my first and pretty short thought was how to generally improve at the game.

I'll give a rundown of my characters (

Characters pic.twitter.com/ZOde5WcFro

— fflord (@fireforcelore) February 10, 2021

) sorry for the zoners.

As for my second, I'll give background in this next paragraph for my characters and then get into the real problem.

I'm gonna sound like im snorting something here but, the first time I played a zoner was fun. Because others had to react to my spacing, and I could go in for a combo as well that either gimped them or was actually kind of cool usage for their projectile (I played Villager). Maybe I liked it because I only played swordies from brawl until ultimate, and applied a simliar concept of not having a hurtbox on what they are throwing out. I get it, some characters aren't the most fun, but even Falcon gets me in a bad mood sometimes. I'm just a dude who doesn't think tier lists matter, so I'll play the character that's most fun for me. While this is the case, I do think many matchups are really important. Which relates to my earlier statement of wanting to get better. I want to be able to beat a character that's better with a character that's fun for me, which may require a counterpick depending on the other player. So while you can make a tier list, im scared about my current situation of how playing a character that's regarded as such worse can exploit the matchup with a single mechanic that counterpicks.

Recently my friend picked up Isabelle (roughly two weeks ago). and I starting using Wii Fit again, and my Wii fit is even better than when I dropped him a few months ago because now I started utilizing Header Cancels. Smash is my main game as of now and it used to be For Honor, which is why i'm in a Dabuz Steve type situation where for a few days nobody can beat him cause of matchup inexperience, and then the Steve probably won't see the light of day again. So i'm trying to beat him before Belle may get dropped. Without my better characters though, cause I want to prove Wii fit and Isabelle is winnable for Wii fit. Or i'm better. Or that I can get even better.

The main strats I'm trying to use are baiting out Isabelle's slingshot with Wii fit's amazing crouch, baiting out pocket with header cancel, stalling high when needed.

But the problems im having are approaching because, when I lower my hurtbox it's hard to react to dash attack, punishing him shielding and his out of shield game, edge guarding, more ways to avoid getting header pocketed. Also how do other Wii fit players out there utilize deep breathing, low, mid, or kill percent?

Like I said before, I can bait out pocket, but it's a huge risk when it does get taken anyway. Because I can't use header until its out. And i'm not exactly a top player robot to mix it up once every 2 games and make the comeback of a century at the drop of a hat (yet). I also know how pocket conquers matchups because I play Villager and take lives at 40 to confirms againt projectile characters.

I've seen fatality learn new edge cancel tech just recently, so im sure there's even more crazy tech I haven't heard of, and if you guys know better ways that Wii Fit can win using things like edge cancels and sliding tilts, etc that would be great

So yeah basically how do I win the matchup with Wii fit, better cross up shield on Isabelle and others with small hurtboxes as Wii fit, and any tips to improve my gameplay.

 

[stixie]

So... are you maining Bowser Jr?? am I reading that right? and then you secondary maybe min-min? or are you pretty much wii fit right now?

Need to know this for viable punish options.

 

[obiiieis19]

So... are you maining Bowser Jr?? am I reading that right? and then you secondary maybe min-min? or are you pretty much wii fit right now?

Need to know this for viable punish options.

I'm cutting the fat right now
I play zoners but some suck in some matchups, Wendy and Min Min are my mains for the most part, but Wii fit is just that character that can camp another zoner out and with so much combo potential and confirms without the needed use of projectiles. Add Byleth to that and those are my 4 characters i'll always use. Anything beyond that is mostly casual or for a counterpick.

 

[stixie]

I don't play any of your characters so I don't know for CERTAIN what good punish options are going to be but for Min Min I'd say upsmash.

Up-Smash is frame 7 and I get punished a LOT for landing on her with this move. A lot of Min Mins I play throw this move out randomly at me to catch jumps and attacks on her shield. It also reflects. Another great punish option for this character is grab. It has a long range and you're going to find a lot of people jumping in on Min Min which if you space just out of their jump should net you a free grab.


I don't play BJr... like... AT ALL so I'm not going to have much on this character.



In general though I'd take a look at OOS Options and UltimateFrameData to get your fastest punish moves and use those.


For teching I can help.

• Go to Training Mode
• Go to the Shadow Moses Island stage
• Pick Donkey Kong as CPU
• Put Donkey Kong on Fsmash
• Put your % to 40-80ish
• Practice by getting hit by the Fsmash and pressing the shield button as you hit the wall (you'll know you get it when you don't go FLYING to your death)

 

[obiiieis19]

I don't play any of your characters so I don't know for CERTAIN what good punish options are going to be but for Min Min I'd say upsmash.

Up-Smash is frame 7 and I get punished a LOT for landing on her with this move. A lot of Min Mins I play throw this move out randomly at me to catch jumps and attacks on her shield. It also reflects. Another great punish option for this character is grab. It has a long range and you're going to find a lot of people jumping in on Min Min which if you space just out of their jump should net you a free grab.


I don't play BJr... like... AT ALL so I'm not going to have much on this character.



In general though I'd take a look at OOS Options and UltimateFrameData to get your fastest punish moves and use those.


For teching I can help.

• Go to Training Mode
• Go to the Shadow Moses Island stage
• Pick Donkey Kong as CPU
• Put Donkey Kong on Fsmash
• Put your % to 40-80ish
• Practice by getting hit by the Fsmash and pressing the shield button as you hit the wall (you'll know you get it when you don't go FLYING to your death)

noted mi amigo

 

[Constantini]

That's a long and fairly disorganized post, not to be a **** but it isn't super helpful to anyone who could offer help; you might want to trim the fat a little. My main takeaway here is that you play too many characters. Nothing wrong with that, but if you're struggling even at mid level then having 6 mains and a bunch of secondaries will do you no benefit.

The game has like 80 characters so getting decent matchup knowledge is already a massive chore on its own. Its also worth noting that without replay samples of yours, it's hard to tell where your flaws are. You mention tech a lot but at mid level you don't really needs whole lot of that to succeed other, but rather should concentrate more on mastering movement and properly spaced tilts.

I hope that was somewhat helpful but be a bit more specific with your issues and what exactly you're trying to achieve.

 

[obiiieis19]

That's a long and fairly disorganized post, not to be a **** but it isn't super helpful to anyone who could offer help; you might want to trim the fat a little. My main takeaway here is that you play too many characters. Nothing wrong with that, but if you're struggling even at mid level then having 6 mains and a bunch of secondaries will do you no benefit.

The game has like 80 characters so getting decent matchup knowledge is already a massive chore on its own. Its also worth noting that without replay samples of yours, it's hard to tell where your flaws are. You mention tech a lot but at mid level you don't really needs whole lot of that to succeed other, but rather should concentrate more on mastering movement and properly spaced tilts.

I hope that was somewhat helpful but be a bit more specific with your issues and what exactly you're trying to achieve.

I understand you, I just don't want to end up being the best Samus in my state because I just click with a character initially, just want a bit of a challenge so whoever i'm fighting has to adapt. Not that I dislike Samus. And Pyra and Mythra are just going to make it worse.

 

[obiiieis19]

That's a long and fairly disorganized post, not to be a **** but it isn't super helpful to anyone who could offer help; you might want to trim the fat a little. My main takeaway here is that you play too many characters. Nothing wrong with that, but if you're struggling even at mid level then having 6 mains and a bunch of secondaries will do you no benefit.

The game has like 80 characters so getting decent matchup knowledge is already a massive chore on its own. Its also worth noting that without replay samples of yours, it's hard to tell where your flaws are. You mention tech a lot but at mid level you don't really needs whole lot of that to succeed other, but rather should concentrate more on mastering movement and properly spaced tilts.

I hope that was somewhat helpful but be a bit more specific with your issues and what exactly you're trying to achieve.

im just thinking, and how do you recommend dropping characters

 

[Constantini]

The thing is, going from mid-level to best in state or even a specific local is hard stuff, and will take hundreds of hours (best players of any X characters have probably over 2K + hours with one char) so I would just chuck that idea.

Ive got a lot of characters I like to use too so I get it but my opinion is that concentrating on 2 characters top specifically trying to just get good at the game in general might be more beneficial to you in the long run. I say this because once you get good enough you can pick pretty much any character and do OK because you'll have better grasp at the general mechanics!

As for dropping that's entirely up to you and what you want out of the game. I used to main ridley but got tired of dealing with long juggles so I switched to Samus, got better at the game and then went back to ridley and ended up dual mainng them.

Picking whoever you have the most fun with is generally is always a good choice.

 

[StrangeKitten]

It really is tough to narrow down characters in Ultimate. So many are fun to play!

What I like to do, is use 5-character Squad Strike for practice. The downside is you can't play it online, so you'll probably have to play against CPUs (which isn't so bad, since I've seen a lot of people say that playing online made them get worse offline). But, you can pick your mains and anyone else you want to play. And even put em in a random order if you can't decide who to choose first. That way, you're able to keep playing your mains while also working on others. Other benefits include setting the CPUs to random giving you an equal chance of fighting everyone, so you'll get better at fighting obscure characters such as Duck Hunt (sure, the CPUs don't play them optimally, but you still get used to their moves and whatnot), and knowing the offline timing for things if good offline play is what you're aiming for. As well as getting used to the game in general: recovering, movement, etc., and building confidence and a strong mental state since who cares if you lose against CPUs? No one will even know. Could be worth mixing this method with online singles at least.

While my friends are tragically bad at Smash, the payoff of playing 5-char Squad Strike is that I managed to beat them with nearly every character in my signature before covid hit. I also think playing a lot of characters helps you get better at the game, because you understand various mechanics better. I do advise sticking to your mains as much as you can, though: you will improve faster playing the same character. But variety is also great!

 

[obiiieis19]

It really is tough to narrow down characters in Ultimate. So many are fun to play!

What I like to do, is use 5-character Squad Strike for practice. The downside is you can't play it online, so you'll probably have to play against CPUs (which isn't so bad, since I've seen a lot of people say that playing online made them get worse offline). But, you can pick your mains and anyone else you want to play. And even put em in a random order if you can't decide who to choose first. That way, you're able to keep playing your mains while also working on others. Other benefits include setting the CPUs to random giving you an equal chance of fighting everyone, so you'll get better at fighting obscure characters such as Duck Hunt (sure, the CPUs don't play them optimally, but you still get used to their moves and whatnot), and knowing the offline timing for things if good offline play is what you're aiming for. As well as getting used to the game in general: recovering, movement, etc., and building confidence and a strong mental state since who cares if you lose against CPUs? No one will even know. Could be worth mixing this method with online singles at least.

While my friends are tragically bad at Smash, the payoff of playing 5-char Squad Strike is that I managed to beat them with nearly every character in my signature before covid hit. I also think playing a lot of characters helps you get better at the game, because you understand various mechanics better. I do advise sticking to your mains as much as you can, though: you will improve faster playing the same character. But variety is also great!

Interesting strategy.

 

[stixie]

(which isn't so bad, since I've seen a lot of people say that playing online made them get worse offline).

This is 100000000% true. Playing online makes you do COMPLETELY different options you would do offline because of the lag. For instance, ganon players tend to down b every 5 seconds online whereas that move isn't even viable offline unless you get a REALLY hard read. Punishes are also going to be different online because inputs + buffer system + lag = your character doing something completely unrelated to what you just pressed buttons for.

Online gives me a bad rash and it's honestly unacceptable to be living in 2021 (WITH covid) and a AAA game company can't freaking get an online service that's even DECENT.

Salt... sorry.

It really is tough to narrow down characters in Ultimate. So many are fun to play!

What I like to do, is use 5-character Squad Strike for practice. The downside is you can't play it online, so you'll probably have to play against CPUs (which isn't so bad, since I've seen a lot of people say that playing online made them get worse offline). But, you can pick your mains and anyone else you want to play. And even put em in a random order if you can't decide who to choose first. That way, you're able to keep playing your mains while also working on others. Other benefits include setting the CPUs to random giving you an equal chance of fighting everyone, so you'll get better at fighting obscure characters such as Duck Hunt (sure, the CPUs don't play them optimally, but you still get used to their moves and whatnot), and knowing the offline timing for things if good offline play is what you're aiming for. As well as getting used to the game in general: recovering, movement, etc., and building confidence and a strong mental state since who cares if you lose against CPUs? No one will even know. Could be worth mixing this method with online singles at least.

While my friends are tragically bad at Smash, the payoff of playing 5-char Squad Strike is that I managed to beat them with nearly every character in my signature before covid hit. I also think playing a lot of characters helps you get better at the game, because you understand various mechanics better. I do advise sticking to your mains as much as you can, though: you will improve faster playing the same character. But variety is also great!

Ok... so....

As to this strategy. It CAN WORK but I'd suggest sticking to ONE CHARACTER until you get REALLY REALLY good with that character. It will be your MAIN (my main is Zelda and I have 13000+ games with her and her alone) and once playing cpu's and even people online gets really boring because you've maxed out your gsp and you NEVER EVER lose to a lvl 9 cpu THEN start branching out to other characters. The reason why I say this is because it gives you a deep understanding of one character and ALSO (because you know your character's options) a deep understanding of how to fight everyone (OOS/Punish options).

Just my two sense on that.

The thing is, going from mid-level to best in state or even a specific local is hard stuff, and will take hundreds of hours (best players of any X characters have probably over 2K + hours with one char) so I would just chuck that idea.

Ive got a lot of characters I like to use too so I get it but my opinion is that concentrating on 2 characters top specifically trying to just get good at the game in general might be more beneficial to you in the long run. I say this because once you get good enough you can pick pretty much any character and do OK because you'll have better grasp at the general mechanics!

As for dropping that's entirely up to you and what you want out of the game. I used to main ridley but got tired of dealing with long juggles so I switched to Samus, got better at the game and then went back to ridley and ended up dual mainng them.

Picking whoever you have the most fun with is generally is always a good choice.

Could not agree more with this post.