Trying to learn competitive techniques

[g3cci]

Ok so as a casual i **** other casuals, but that drops off competitively as i didnt even know what an l cancel or wavedash was two months. Anyway i practice both and i want to main marth so i practice with him, and im never sure when to use cstick or the a button for shffling. this has been nagging at me and i just wanted an answer.
also any other tips are much appreciated, assume ik nothing even tho i have looked at the stickies and the 8 video ippo guide i still dont have a good grasp. thanks for any responses!

 

[Dandy_here]

It is generally just preference on the a and c stick issue. With Marth, nowadays it's best to practice movement and chain grabs on spacies. NEVER SPAM F SMASH. NEVER USE N-AIR TO APPROACH. NEVER EVER LOSE MOMENTUM. And don't get caught in the air with out a jump. Side b to go slightly forward in air.

 

[Sycorax]

also any other tips are much appreciated, assume ik nothing

Check this out.

 

[g3cci]

thank you both this helped a ton!

 

[TheBoyRoy]

Practice your movement. It becomes extremely important if you play against technical spacies to have good platform movement so that you can navigate their shenanigans. Also, practice makes perfect so just practice a **** ton.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Grab a lot. Like, all the time.

 

[PlamZ]

It seems weird but hear me :

Practice your tilts like crazy, short hop for hours and tipper inanimate players until you bleed. Technical ability can only take you so far if you don't have very, very solid fundamentals. Try to get your basic stuff at least 99% of the time. The biggest different between a good and a great player is how consistent they are at applying their knowledge.

Once you are confident, adding these advanced technique will feel so much easier.

 

[FE_Hector]

Grab a lot. Like, all the time.

Have fun trying to do that against a highly mobile Sheik.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

@ FE_Hector

Speaking generally grab is one of Marth best options. It's so obscenely long that it reaches farther than yoshi's neutral b command grab. Why not abuse it? Sure, it'll be bad in certain matchups but for the most part it wrecks just about everybody, especially the characters you're going to be playing the most aka Fox/Falco.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ The Young Izzy Iz
I know that Marth's grab range is obscene, I'm just saying that you shouldn't grab all the time. Especially against a Sheik who SHFFLs a lot, it can be really tough. I don't have all her numbers memorized, but I'm almost sure that her fair comes out on frame 3, so you've just got to make sure you don't try to grab too much.

 

[DeadPigeon]

@ The Young Izzy Iz
I know that Marth's grab range is obscene, I'm just saying that you shouldn't grab all the time. Especially against a Sheik who SHFFLs a lot, it can be really tough. I don't have all her numbers memorized, but I'm almost sure that her fair comes out on frame 3, so you've just got to make sure you don't try to grab too much.

This is wrong. The grab is the most important part of the Marth-Sheik matchup. You want to grab sheik as much as possible and you don't want to get grabbed ever. You have guaranteed follow-ups at certain percents, and they can easily lead into juggling or tech chases.
Leaving the ground is extremely risky for either player in this matchup. If a sheik is abusing sffls, you have quite a few options. A spaced dash dance can often punish the landing lag with a grab or a dtilt(->grab). You can also dash->shield->grab, or cc->grab at low percents. In addition, utilt, ftilt, and fsmash can all out space various sheik aerials.
I suggest taking a look at this guide if you want more insight into the matchup.

 

[FE_Hector]

This is wrong. The grab is the most important part of the Marth-Sheik matchup. You want to grab sheik as much as possible and you don't want to get grabbed ever. You have guaranteed follow-ups at certain percents, and they can easily lead into juggling or tech chases.
Leaving the ground is extremely risky for either player in this matchup. If a sheik is abusing sffls, you have quite a few options. A spaced dash dance can often punish the landing lag with a grab or a dtilt(->grab). You can also dash->shield->grab, or cc->grab at low percents. In addition, utilt, ftilt, and fsmash can all out space various sheik aerials.
I suggest taking a look at this guide if you want more insight into the matchup.

Well I suppose there are inevitably multiple ways to run a Sheik. With the way my brother plays her, half of what he suggests is next to worthless, but I'll make mental notes for when I fight other Sheiks and for little things to attempt against my brother.

Anyway, due to the speed with which Sheik escapes hitstun, a lot of "guaranteed" combos aren't guaranteed, and she can often aerial dodge down and away from a uair to force Marth's combo to a stop. At least, that's my experience against Sheik. I do have to say, though, that I have a pitiful lack of Melee experience against real people.

 

[Smashing Turnips]

Check this out.

This is extremely helpful. It's full of everything you need to know to get started as well as things you can apply later.
Here are a few more tips though:

-Try to stay patient. Throwing out moves on shield will get you punished hard by better players.
-Dash Dancing is IMPORTANT; try to learn why it's good and apply it to your game. Don't just move back and forth without a purpose. You want to use it to bait out your opponent and move between their attacks and punish back.
-Work on movement and pivot grabs out of your dash dance. This helps TONS against wild approaches.
-Don't throw out moves with lag unless you're sure that they will connect. F-Smash is great, but if you miss you run the risk of dying.

 

[FE_Hector]

-Try to stay patient. Throwing out moves on shield will get you punished hard by better players.

Unless you opt to SH uncharged Shield Breaker. I don't have a GIF of it's exact range, but I know that it's range below him is actually quite nice, and forcing their Shield down that much is super helpful. Still, I agree you've gotta be careful. That trick can rarely be performed well.

 

[DeadPigeon]

Unless you opt to SH uncharged Shield Breaker. I don't have a GIF of it's exact range, but I know that it's range below him is actually quite nice, and forcing their Shield down that much is super helpful. Still, I agree you've gotta be careful. That trick can rarely be performed well.

This is not safe at all. A good player will punish this

 

[FE_Hector]

This is not safe at all. A good player will punish this

Being why I said "That trick can rarely be performed well." I'm not saying it's a particular good option, but it's possible to use it well.

 

[PlamZ]

Being why I said "That trick can rarely be performed well." I'm not saying it's a particular good option, but it's possible to use it well.

Once I actually broke someone shield doing this. I had made his shield very weak using down tilts and spaced fairs (He could do OOS options but for a reason did not.) I just SH Shieldbreaker then took the kill with a fully charged Shieldbreaker.

 

[FE_Hector]

Once I actually broke someone shield doing this. I had made his shield very weak using down tilts and spaced fairs (He could do OOS options but for a reason did not.) I just SH Shieldbreaker then took the kill with a fully charged Shieldbreaker.

Exactly, it can be done. However, when I break shields with that, I prefer to WD back and fully charge an fsmash to finish them. But that's also partially because I know how to follow it up if it connects and I really enjoy his fsmash. I just don't typically use it because I'm not into getting the crap knocked out of me for the sake of enjoying a move.

 

[PlamZ]

Exactly, it can be done. However, when I break shields with that, I prefer to WD back and fully charge an fsmash to finish them. But that's also partially because I know how to follow it up if it connects and I really enjoy his fsmash. I just don't typically use it because I'm not into getting the crap knocked out of me for the sake of enjoying a move.

Fully Charged Shield-Breaker, when applicable, is a better solution. The knockback is better and does not stale your F-smash.

 

[FE_Hector]

Fully Charged Shield-Breaker, when applicable, is a better solution. The knockback is better and does not stale your F-smash.

Didn't know that. Thanks

 

[Shadoninja]

It is generally just preference on the a and c stick issue. With Marth, nowadays it's best to practice movement and chain grabs on spacies. NEVER SPAM F SMASH. NEVER USE N-AIR TO APPROACH. NEVER EVER LOSE MOMENTUM. And don't get caught in the air with out a jump. Side b to go slightly forward in air.

I don't like this rule of thumb "never use nair to approach." I have heard this from time to time, but PPMD uses nair to approach. He doesn't spam it to where it is predictable, but he definitely uses it. It is a bigger risk than a fair, but to just say "don't use it" is annoying to hear when one of the best marth's in the world definitely does it in his matches. There was a recent match where PPMD did a raw SHFFl nair into a tipper forward smash and got a 40% kill on PewPewU.

 

[FE_Hector]

I don't like this rule of thumb "never use nair to approach." I have heard this from time to time, but PPMD uses nair to approach. He doesn't spam it to where it is predictable, but he definitely uses it. It is a bigger risk than a fair, but to just say "don't use it" is annoying to hear when one of the best marth's in the world definitely does it in his matches. There was a recent match where PPMD did a raw SHFFl nair into a tipper forward smash and got a 40% kill on PewPewU.

It's called redefining the meta. I've been using some SH AC nairs recently myself and they've worked quite well. I haven't made this known cuz I don't feel like being in a huge argument over it

 

[Shadoninja]

It's called redefining the meta. I've been using some SH AC nairs recently myself and they've worked quite well. I haven't made this known cuz I don't feel like being in a huge argument over it

Yeah I am ready to argue for weeks about this. If someone dares to give me an opposing opinion, I am going to just internet smite them right now.

 

[DeadPigeon]

Yeah I am ready to argue for weeks about this. If someone dares to give me an opposing opinion, I am going to just internet smite them right now.

Lol. You can approach with any move, especially if you have a read on your opponent. However, due to the nature of nair's hitbox (and how easy it is to cc the first hit) makes it a sub optimal approach. I've seen high level marths approach with dair sometimes too. It doesn't make it good.

 

[FE_Hector]

Lol. You can approach with any move, especially if you have a read on your opponent. However, due to the nature of nair's hitbox (and how easy it is to cc the first hit) makes it a sub optimal approach. I've seen high level marths approach with dair sometimes too. It doesn't make it good.

Except that any semi-decent Marth would ensure that the first hit of nair didn't connect

 

[Dandy_here]

Except that any semi-decent Marth would ensure that the first hit of nair didn't connect

Nair isn't a good approach at all. If you use it a few times they're just gonna punish you for it

 

[FE_Hector]

Nair isn't a good approach at all. If you use it a few times they're just gonna punish you for it

And THIS is why I haven't said anything about nair...

 

[Shadoninja]

Lol. You can approach with any move, especially if you have a read on your opponent. However, due to the nature of nair's hitbox (and how easy it is to cc the first hit) makes it a sub optimal approach. I've seen high level marths approach with dair sometimes too. It doesn't make it good.

The move is riskier than other options, objectively. That doesn't make it bad.

 

[FE_Hector]

The move is riskier than other options, objectively. That doesn't make it bad.

The general logic is that if it's riskier, it's not as good

 

[ChivalRuse]

For late SHFFL'd uairs, it's generally better to use c-stick. For early rising uairs, "A".

"A" tends to be better for bairs and fairs. C-stick better overall for dairs and uairs.

 

[DeadPigeon]

The move is riskier than other options, objectively. That doesn't make it bad.

I don't think moves are good or bad. I think move selection (which moves to use in which circumstance and how) is what is "good" or "bad"

 

[Dandy_here]

I don't think moves are good or bad. I think move selection (which moves to use in which circumstance and how) is what is "good" or "bad"

We are talking about approaching with nair, which is still bad no matter how you slice it

 

[ChivalRuse]

Approaching with nair isn't ALWAYS bad. You can't just throw it out willy nilly though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8yKWtB2nOg#t=0m11s

 

[FE_Hector]

Approaching with nair isn't ALWAYS bad. You can't just throw it out willy nilly though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8yKWtB2nOg#t=0m11s

In the Sheik MU, I actually use nair a bit. I'll throw in a SH nair -> poke every once in a while because it's difficult to deal with if the Sheik isn't expecting it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Actually, that's the one matchup where I don't recommend ever using nair. Ironically, PPMD talked about this a lot in the "ask Cactuar stuff about Marth" thread. Nair loses to Sheik's f-tilt unfortunately.

 

[FE_Hector]

Actually, that's the one matchup where I don't recommend ever using nair. Ironically, PPMD talked about this a lot in the "ask Cactuar stuff about Marth" thread. Nair loses to Sheik's f-tilt unfortunately.

Hmm, I'll have to remember that and break the habit. My bro still hasn't quite picked up on the whole "Sheik's ftilt is one of her biggest assets" concept.

 

[Shadoninja]

Approaching with nair isn't ALWAYS bad. You can't just throw it out willy nilly though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8yKWtB2nOg#t=0m11s

THIS. Just saying a move should never be done is silly. If you catch your opponent off guard, some cool setups open up.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't remember much of what PPMD wrote in that thread. But I do remember him repeatedly saying how bad nair was vs Sheik.