Trying to improve a little, arriving from melee

[Kor_Hey_1]

So... I played this game a lot in 2015 but didn't played it since like september because it was my last year of studies and I focused on melee.

Now the game just feel weird and some mechanics feel "dumb".

Sooooooooo... I tried to play yesterday to know what character will be my main. There are 3 I like to play : Yoshi, Corrin and Pit. I don't want to play character I play in melee and PM.

I don't know any match up, I just feel like you have de play the same against all other characters. Is that true?

Would you give me some tips for this 3 characters? I played yoshi and ness in 2015. I don't want to play ness anymore because people are used to him and I'm bad at recover with up b.



I played a little in for glory and... Got destroy by ganon that spam side b on stage. Is it possible de tech it? I can escape if I go behind him but god, side B to side cover the options where you get up in place and in front of him...

Is there some techskills to position yourself? Since there's not wavedash, I feel I play the game as if I was writing with my left hand (being right handed).

How do you punish roll? There's so little frame to do something.

Also, when opponent is in the air, since they can just air dodge at will, should I just stay on stage and wait to hit when they land?

For edge guard, how do you do? Wait your opponent to grab it, grab it yourselg, let go immediatly and attack when he's in the air?

Don't explain all details, just general strategy because I'm asking for a lot of things.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

So... I played this game a lot in 2015 but didn't played it since like september because it was my last year of studies and I focused on melee.

Now the game just feel weird and some mechanics feel "dumb".

Sooooooooo... I tried to play yesterday to know what character will be my main. There are 3 I like to play : Yoshi, Corrin and Pit. I don't want to play character I play in melee and PM.

I don't know any match up, I just feel like you have de play the same against all other characters. Is that true?

Would you give me some tips for this 3 characters? I played yoshi and ness in 2015. I don't want to play ness anymore because people are used to him and I'm bad at recover with up b.



I played a little in for glory and... Got destroy by ganon that spam side b on stage. Is it possible de tech it? I can escape if I go behind him but god, side B to side cover the options where you get up in place and in front of him...

Is there some techskills to position yourself? Since there's not wavedash, I feel I play the game as if I was writing with my left hand (being right handed).

How do you punish roll? There's so little frame to do something.

Also, when opponent is in the air, since they can just air dodge at will, should I just stay on stage and wait to hit when they land?

For edge guard, how do you do? Wait your opponent to grab it, grab it yourselg, let go immediatly and attack when he's in the air?

Don't explain all details, just general strategy because I'm asking for a lot of things.

For the basic package (just fundamental stuff), just read the Last two tips in bold.

For the complete package (learning all the tech and stuff):

• Try to main only one character at this point in time.
• If you want wavedash-isque movement, switch your controls to Bidou.

• Practice these techs in training mode one at a time. Take it slow bro.
• Slowly incorporate the movement into your other form of training ( lvl 3 CPU for high number of stocks/high amount of time).
• Learn footsies

• Learn our DI

And that just about does it for all the tech. Keep practicing and stay with a positive Attitude.

 

[Murlough]

Matchups are super important in this game. You can't play every matchup the same way.

You punish rolls by realizing your opponents rolling habits and baiting them to do it.

It depends on your level of play. You can wait out an air dodge and punish, or (at low levels) wait for them to air dodge into the ground and punish that. Don't air dodge into the ground by the way.

Edgeguarding is pretty character dependant. I wouldn't even bother with Yoshi since your opponent can footstool you out of your jump and you'll be dead, but I don't main the character so I could be wrong. Pit's arrows are really good for getting free % and even stealing jumps. Corrin...I don't know the best strategy for her. I like to try and 2 frame with Dragon Lunge or fire off the shot off stage.

What you mentioned was ledge trumping. It is a really good mix up to have depending on your character. It also puts your opponent in a terrible position.

You can also try ledge trapping. Ledge trapping is basically trying to cover all your opponents options to keep them on the edge as long as possible. I really like this concept because you don't risk stage control and its still free %.

 

[Kor_Hey_1]

Baby_Sneak Murlough Thanks. I knew the basic about zoning. The thing is that since there is no wavedash I find it super difficult to cover length like half a roll. Instead of just WD in and attack you have to roll then dash or retreat to wait for a better chance to act. It's frustrating. For the neutral, in melee I like to altern wall with d-tilt/u-tilt/first hit side B with marth and bait DD for a grab since it's a super important combo starter. In sm4sh, you have no DD (extending DD can't be used like melee DD) and you can't really wall opponent because you will be easily punished for doing aerial on shield (RiP the fair l cancel d tilt retreat DD to grab with marth lol).

About techs like bidou and step dash. Is it really worth to learn it since it could be patch in an update? In tournament nobody use bidou at high level so I don't want to learn it. Also I prefer to use "intuitive" controls. For step dash I don't know, I'll try.

When I say that match-ups are played the same is that you always play defensively in this game. In melee, you can go all in shield pressure with fox or falco, do aggressive spacing with Marth with SH double fair and DD grab. In sm4sh it's more like punish errors of your opponents. I have to readapt to the game. Wait like 20 sec to punish the opponent to land like 2 hits on your opponent frustates me. 6 months ago it was like ok, I was the kind of guy who frustrates opponent by doing absolutely nothing but wait and punish and send projectiles.

Edgeguard will come with time.

So I decided to main Corrin. It's the character I have fun with the most. Some attacks are pretty safe (f-smash has incredible range, side B to). The thing is I always have difficulties to kill opponent even at high %. Maybe it comes from melee where you can kill with move like nair, some tilts etc.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Baby_Sneak Murlough Thanks. I knew the basic about zoning. The thing is that since there is no wavedash I find it super difficult to cover length like half a roll. Instead of just WD in and attack you have to roll then dash or retreat to wait for a better chance to act. It's frustrating. For the neutral, in melee I like to altern wall with d-tilt/u-tilt/first hit side B with marth and bait DD for a grab since it's a super important combo starter. In sm4sh, you have no DD (extending DD can't be used like melee DD) and you can't really wall opponent because you will be easily punished for doing aerial on shield (RiP the fair l cancel d tilt retreat DD to grab with marth lol).

About techs like bidou and step dash. Is it really worth to learn it since it could be patch in an update? In tournament nobody use bidou at high level so I don't want to learn it. Also I prefer to use "intuitive" controls. For step dash I don't know, I'll try.

When I say that match-ups are played the same is that you always play defensively in this game. In melee, you can go all in shield pressure with fox or falco, do aggressive spacing with Marth with SH double fair and DD grab. In sm4sh it's more like punish errors of your opponents. I have to readapt to the game. Wait like 20 sec to punish the opponent to land like 2 hits on your opponent frustates me. 6 months ago it was like ok, I was the kind of guy who frustrates opponent by doing absolutely nothing but wait and punish and send projectiles.

Edgeguard will come with time.

So I decided to main Corrin. It's the character I have fun with the most. Some attacks are pretty safe (f-smash has incredible range, side B to). The thing is I always have difficulties to kill opponent even at high %. Maybe it comes from melee where you can kill with move like nair, some tilts etc.

Extended dash dance can't be manipulated to the same degree as melee DD, but it can be ultilized to some degree. You walking out opponents is very hard, but it's doable with counter-poking and other very intricate stuff.

Why would you worry about Nintendo patching a control scheme when they've proven to not even patch out the movement bug with held c stick smash? Or they haven't buffed puff, D3, or other low tiers yet? They're a very conservative Dev team, and that's really good, so it's fine. And nobody in tournaments is perfect, they're still developing, so trying to follow exactly what tournament players do isn't good for you as a player In any game. And the controls don't have to be exactly what My Smash Corner said; I have ZL as my grab, ZR as my special, L as shield, and R as my attack, and X and A are Jump, Y is special, and B is attack. Controls naturally get easier when you practice them a whole bunch and you still have flexibility in playing how you want to with the controls. ESAM has a GC controller and he's able to use bidou just like me.

And regards to MUs, there's plenty of diversity in game plans. Zard (turtle character with some explosive burst offense), Rosa (turtle character that walls out pretty much the entire cast, has stupid lockdown potential in ledge traps, edgeguards, stage control, etc...), sheik (does it all. Can rushdown the entire cast when she feels like it and racks up a ton of percent doing it, and can zone with needles and force approaches, has very fast normals and movement to quickly punish and then retreat), fox (rushdown character with very fast normals, racks up damage fast, and has explosive killing ability), and mewtwo (does everything like sheik, except more extreme in every way. Has ridiculous killing potential, zones very well, can rushdown pretty well, dominates in footsies, really good normals, can do a infinite though it's limited, etc...).

 

[DavemanCozy]

I believe that patches are done now, but you never know. Regardless, the step-dash and bidou techs have not yet flourished, the former being newly discovered and difficult to perform while the latter requires adjustment from traditional control schemes. Perfect pivoting has been here since the 3DS release, it hasn't gone away yet and I don't think it is going, neither do I think the other two will be removed.

Perfect Pivoting, extended dash dancing, step-dashing, and quick empty short-hops are as close as you can get to positioning yourself and baiting opponents. You are right to say they are not as effective as the options you had in Melee, but they are there. Since different characters have different animations for their dash-startups and walks, the timings vary for these.

Rolls are pretty good in this game, but you can punish someone abusing them by paying attention to their habits. Corrin in general has pretty good range with his/her f-smash, d-tilt, projectile, side-b, etc. You can cover a variety of options with all his/her moves. Corrin is also pretty good at edge-guarding because of the range available to you. You should be better off reading through the character specific forum rather than asking here, there are certain characters with stupidly good recoveries while others get edge-guarded pretty easily, it varies what you should do based on the MU.

The easiest way to ledge-trump with most characters:
run off ledge > quickly to fall and grab ledge. If your character falls fast, it's usually sufficient to just press back.

Ironic that you ask for "general" advice, yet before you asked something specific to Ganon. You should really take Mulrough's post to heart, there are tons of characters in this game and most of them (if not all) are viable at low - mid level play. This will become less and less true the more difficult the tourney is, but even at high to top level play we've seen characters like Mega Man, Greninja, Donkey Kong, Pit, Lucario, Peach, etc get top 16 and even top 8 results.

In the case of Ganon's side-b: if he grabs you, let go of shield, and tech it right before you hit the ground. If you were still holding shield when he raised you up in the choke, then you will not be able to tech.

 

[Kor_Hey_1]

Okay, thanks everyone.

I worry about nintendo patching the game because if player don't play the game the way Sakurai wanted to, he will see the game as he sees melee. Since the power of patching what he wants is in his hands...

I just have to build new habits in this game. I did pretty well against a friend online, even if it was a little laggy.

Thx for the Ganon tricks. Because of the buffer, I fail a great part of my tech. The move is ridiculous because even if you tech, if the opponent side B again, he covers tech in place and one of the two tech roll I guess. It will become natural with time.

I'll post on Corrin threads to ask for character specific advice. Thanks everyone for helping me even if I'm a "Devil's advocate" type of guy who ask for every details and is always skeptic. No offense in my mind.

 

[Evello]

Thx for the Ganon tricks. Because of the buffer, I fail a great part of my tech. The move is ridiculous because even if you tech, if the opponent side B again, he covers tech in place and one of the two tech roll I guess. It will become natural with time.

Honestly, the best plan is to not get hit with it much in the first place, especially as Corrin. Ganondorf seriously struggles to approach most of the cast, Corrin included, and his sideB travels a set distance so you know the exact range to avoid. If you're within that range, use your disjoints to intercept possible attacks.

I think your impression of the optimal way to play this game is slightly off. If you're looking for fast, aggressive characters with lots of combos, Smash4 does have that. Sheik, Mario, Ryu, Fox, Pikachu, and others have aggressive, extended combos. Other characters, like Corrin, are less offensive, but even still you should never be sitting back and just letting your opponent land or escape for free. Smash4 is all about pressure. Airdodges, rolls, and other evasive maneuvers all have endlag during which you can hit your opponent. So even if you can't true combo into punishes much of the time, all it takes is reading their dodge and you get a free hit of your choice. The timing is fairly strict for punishes, but this is why you practice and when possible use lasting hitboxes. Rolls can usually be punished by a properly-timed dash attack or aerial, or an attack of your choice if they roll behind you. Airdodges can be punished by aerials. For Corrin in particular, upair has an insane amount of knockback, so a single airdodge read can net you a stock at mid-high percents.

For Glory tends to be extremely defensive because 1) players are not very good at punishing, so defensive options are overly-effective 2) lag makes approaching through projectiles, powershielding, teching, and precise spacing more difficult. Don't use FG as an indication of the best strategies in Smash4. Check out pro matches to see players with a proper balance of offense vs. defense. Cosmos, Ryuga, and Ryo are great examples of Corrin players to watch.

 

[Kor_Hey_1]

Evello thanks. I see your point about being aggressive in the game but since I think there is no safe option on your opponent's shield (grab yes, but usually you have to see it coming beforehand to land it). I don't mind extended combo that much. I switched from falco to marth on melee because I was far better at spacing than find an opening to do sick combo (some character in sm4sh can do both tho).

For punishing defensive options, Corrin has nair that lasts pretty long and hits all around her. Dash attack can be pretty usefull since Corrin moves forward during using it but this last move is punishable. The thing is I have so much difficulties finishing opponent. It's such a pain against lvl9 cpu. I take like 20 sec to land a single hit so land a kill move (which is usually pretty slow) is such an annoying thing. What CPU level would you recommend? If 9, I have to git gud...

I won't play FG again, people are campy AF and lag ruins the game. I started to check pro players on youtube. Most of the vid are from old version (where Corrin has a broken counter), but it's better than nothing.

Also, I'm looking for a second character to play beacause : - There's matchups I'll struggle with if I solo main
- I play mainly for fun rather than pure try hard so change character sometimes is enjoyable.

The two other character I like the most are Yoshi and Pit.

With Yoshi, I usually have difficulties finding a way to hit opponent (mainly against bot. 7 months ago, I was wrecking my friends with him). The good thing is I find combo somewhat "natural".

With pit, I feel like neutral is easier than yoshi. Nair last long and have a pretty big hitbox. Arrow is a good projectile and grab is somewhat easy to land. The thing is I struggle to land KO move. f-smash doesn't have much KB and second hit doesn't always land. u-smash needs your opponent right above you. From his air moves, I feel like only Up-air can kill at decent %.

From what I know, Yoshi is like high middle tiers character. I don't know much about Pit. Is there a character between these two that goes well with Corrin? If not which character would you recommend? (I won't play Mario, Luigi, Bowser, DK, sheik, Marth, Ike, DDD, MK, Fox, Falco, Dr, Lucina and Roy since I play them in melee/PM and don't want to mess up between games).

Have a nice evening if you're american, a good night if you're european and a good morning if you're asian.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Evello thanks. I see your point about being aggressive in the game but since I think there is no safe option on your opponent's shield (grab yes, but usually you have to see it coming beforehand to land it). I don't mind extended combo that much. I switched from falco to marth on melee because I was far better at spacing than find an opening to do sick combo (some character in sm4sh can do both tho).

Okay cool

For punishing defensive options, Corrin has nair that lasts pretty long and hits all around her. Dash attack can be pretty usefull since Corrin moves forward during using it but this last move is punishable. The thing is I have so much difficulties finishing opponent. It's such a pain against lvl9 cpu. I take like 20 sec to land a single hit so land a kill move (which is usually pretty slow) is such an annoying thing. What CPU level would you recommend? If 9, I have to git gud...

Do. Not. Play with lvl 9s anymore. Focus only on lvl 3s and human opponents.

I won't play FG again, people are campy AF and lag ruins the game. I started to check pro players on youtube. Most of the vid are from old version (where Corrin has a broken counter), but it's better than nothing.

Focus on playing people with good connection and make it last. You can even go to discords and play people there.

Also, I'm looking for a second character to play beacause : - There's matchups I'll struggle with if I solo main
- I play mainly for fun rather than pure try hard so change character sometimes is enjoyable.

The two other character I like the most are Yoshi and Pit.

With Yoshi, I usually have difficulties finding a way to hit opponent (mainly against bot. 7 months ago, I was wrecking my friends with him). The good thing is I find combo somewhat "natural".

With pit, I feel like neutral is easier than yoshi. Nair last long and have a pretty big hitbox. Arrow is a good projectile and grab is somewhat easy to land. The thing is I struggle to land KO move. f-smash doesn't have much KB and second hit doesn't always land. u-smash needs your opponent right above you. From his air moves, I feel like only Up-air can kill at decent %.

From what I know, Yoshi is like high middle tiers character. I don't know much about Pit. Is there a character between these two that goes well with Corrin? If not which character would you recommend? (I won't play Mario, Luigi, Bowser, DK, sheik, Marth, Ike, DDD, MK, Fox, Falco, Dr, Lucina and Roy since I play them in melee/PM and don't want to mess up between games).

Don't worry about tiers. If you play mainly for fun, you shouldn't even stress about it.

Have a nice evening if you're american, a good night if you're european and a good morning if you're asian.

 

[Kor_Hey_1]

So I'll train with lvl 3 now. May sometimes play against lvl ~7 to train for defensive option and not just rush on a sandbag.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Playing against a lvl 9 CPU should only be done to find the gaps in your attacks. Although I agree with Baby_Sneak about what he said about practice (preferably the human opponents part), a lvl 9 CPU does things that no other human player will do consistently;

• A lvl 9 computer has near frame-perfect (air) dodging. From this, you can learn the gaps in your combos/strings, or when you can dodge a certain combo if you pick another character.
• A lvl 9 CPU will also use any other fast option available to them (Up-B out of shield or a counter for example) when you leave them an opening in your pressure.
• A lvl 9 CPU is competent in avoiding getting edge-guarded. I say competent because sometimes all they do is air dodge even if it means going too low... but at least it can teach you what the gaps are in your edge-guarding attacks when air-dodging.

This can also work the other way: if you, for example, have trouble escaping a specific character's combo or KO setup, you can attempt doing it against a lvl 9 CPU to see what options they choose.

CPUs are not perfect, as Artificial Intelligence isn't either. But as far as CPUs go in Smash4, they're decent at showing you things that you may not have thought of being possible.