Trouble Vs. Fox

[Sailboat]

(I'm Marth.. against a fox)

Okay... so my friend John and I play almost every day... and I can't seem to get around his up A attack, the deadly fox foot - or foot in ***, as he calls it. Most of our fights go as follows: He runs and ends up eventually grabbing me.. then throwing me up in the air and kicking me... and then repeating the process over and over again. It's almost as though he has skill in nothing else.. he rarely reflects me when I'm off of the stage trying to return, and even when he tries he usually fails at it. He doesn't do any wave dashing, he's not even sure how to - he's just extremely good at the basics.. and it never progresses from there.. and yet it's usually (counting our total matches at the end our fights) that he wins about 60 percent of these.. even 70 at times.. and all due to the fact that I cannot get around this up kick of Fox's. I've actually filmed us fighting 3 times.. only one of which I was the winner, although I can't figure out how to make it not look like ****... and even then the file is like 233 MB and youtube apparently has a 100 MB limit.

I'll work on trying to get the video on youtube so someone here can critique it.. but in the mean time it would be nice to have some advice on this kicking business. I try counter.. d smash.. anything to get away from it.. but he quickly does it again repeatedly to no end. ; ;

 

[Salaad]

Start doing the dashdance motion, he will miss and you get a free Fair?

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

the combo you're talking about is the uthrow -> uair combo. to get out of it, don't hold a direction when he throws you, and when he's about to kick you, move your joystick from left to right / right to left as fast as you can. you should not get hit by the second kick (which is what sends you up).

upload a vid, and we can work from there =)

EDIT: you want to compress your videos. the simplest way is to just download divx (divx.com) and use its converter. just drag and drop your file into the divx converter, your video should be ALOT smaller =)

 

[Sailboat]

Wow thanks for the fast response... that was what, five minutes? Anyways the REAL problem.. and I mean this is horrendous... is his u kick.. I think it's called u air.. I guess? It'll just be a few minutes getting the converter thing.. and then you can see this atrocity.. I've never seen ANYONE... ANY player.. abuse Fox's up kick like this. In the Marth video archives it shows Marth just man-handling the Fox's.. lol, and it's rare that I even see a u air.

 

[Sailboat]

kk here's one of our fights. He usually gets a lot me with more U Airs then he did in this fight.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DHAWpvFIBHo

 

[Retroking2000]

kk here's one of our fights. He usually gets a lot me with more U Airs then he did in this fight.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DHAWpvFIBHo

your marth is sexy * Drunk* anyway you should try running more that would prevent you from getting grabbed so much .. and wavedash do not roll please i feel asleep counting how much times you rolled,
to get quick skill you have to advance your grab game meaning learn to chain grab you lazy sod - you would just grab him and and not bother catching him again.. another way to fill fox quick is to tech chase him by means of throwing him with the down throw .. looking where he is going to tech and then catching with the down throw again and repeat.. remember marths game is through edgeguarding and SHorthopping ariels would be nice to

i may seem like i *** but i have told you whats in my mind ...

 

[Levitas]

Learn to DI well, and get more mobile. If you can DI well, his fox will have a much harder time chasing you with his Uairs, and you'll live longer. DIing well out of up throws and Uairs means DIing to the side, there's a full guide around here somewhere (Melee Discussion perhaps, someone post a link)

Mobility means it will be easier to punish is openings. and there are a ton of openings. Examples of improving mobility are L-cancelling aerials, Dash-Dancing, wavedashing, combining Dash dances and wavedashes, etc. Don't slack off on L-cancelling any aerials, when I first heard about L-cancelling, I thought that the Dair for marth was the most important thing to l-cancel. Quite the contrary, as the moves with the least lag (ie. fair) are much more important to l-cancel, the reason being that something with a large amount of lag will still have more lag when l-cancelled than other aerials. Moves with less lag to begin with can be chained together more easily when their lag is reduced further, and additionally, they're much harder to punish. Watch some matches of Cactuar to see what I mean about mobility, and also to see how fast marth really is.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Just yell "NO JOHNS" and then end the match>_<

 

[Sailboat]

Omg.. Cactuar makes me look like I don't even have my controller plugged in..

 

[Levitas]

There's a quick fix for that, too. Plug in your controller, lol. In all seriousness though, you need to try to get better in order to get better. It's really that simple. Don't get stuck in a rut of thinking that you need to roll when you do, don't even think that it's a good idea (unless for some reason it is, but in the vast majority of the times you rolled, it was a really bad idea.) Improve one or two parts of your game at a time, and I really think those are the first two things you should work on.

 

[Sailboat]

Thanks for the quick advice, I'm trying to post our third fight in youtube.. just be a minute.

 

[Aiko]

yeah, you really need to stop rolling. I know you can wavedash because I saw you do it to an edgehog. It looks like you can do some adv tech but learning all of them is definitely the first step. You should try to replace rolling with wavedashing. I know a lot of people use rolls to turn around, but a more effective way is to wavedash back and then turn, or if you dont have the time, fsmash using c stick for instant turn and attack.

More aerials and up tilt too. Its good that your trying to chain grab and tech chase. I would reccomend practicing chain grabbing on a lvl 1 fox/falco because they DI aswell. You should also dash dance because it'll make you more fluid and present more options to you.

 

[Sailboat]

kk here's the third fight or so:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXI9IZZ93mU


On CPU Fox's I can easily short hop and then d air when they're recovering... but for some reason against my friend I cannot do this. Btw thanks for the advice By watching Cactuars grap U smash and then smashing right or left (whichever the Fox retreats to) is a definite means to improve my game, and I'll be sure to use that. One thing that I can't seem to get a hold of is Fox's Uair, I've heard suggestions on what to do in these situations but when it comes down to it Johns BS seems to override all technique. I also need to look up what DIing means because I have no clue -_-

 

[Sailboat]

Omg lol just in watching the video's I've posted I can see that me rolling around everywhere not only looks horrible but is ridiculously stupid LOL. I'll definitely use the dashing from now on.

Also, another severe problem in dealing with Fox is at the beginning of matches my friend just sits there and spams his laser (no short hopping or anything) and when I run up to him he shield dodges to the left or right.. grabs me (most likely) and at that point usually begins his lame Uair, how do I get him out of doing that laser spam? I've tried short hopping then over B once and then jumping again.. and then another over B or so.. and at that point no lasers will have hit me, and I'd be in Fox's face.. the only problem with this is that now I'm aerial.. and Fox can have a field day -_-

 

[ArcNatural]

Omg lol just in watching the video's I've posted I can see that me rolling around everywhere not only looks horrible but is ridiculously stupid LOL. I'll definitely use the dashing from now on.

Also, another severe problem in dealing with Fox is at the beginning of matches my friend just sits there and spams his laser (no short hopping or anything) and when I run up to him he shield dodges to the left or right.. grabs me (most likely) and at that point usually begins his lame Uair, how do I get him out of doing that laser spam? I've tried short hopping then over B once and then jumping again.. and then another over B or so.. and at that point no lasers will have hit me, and I'd be in Fox's face.. the only problem with this is that now I'm aerial.. and Fox can have a field day -_-

Your basically just looking into the depth this game has. You have already started to practice advanced tactics (I think). I recommend watching this then the 2 other advanced how to play on youtube.:::::
Wak's Advanced how to play guide


Learn to short hop, fastfall, l-cancel, then learn how to combine them (shffl) and practice a ton. This will most likely take a while to get used to. As empty shffls, hitting someone shffls, and shielded shffls all have different l-cancel timing and lag. Don't despair all it takes is time and practice. Practice on level 1 cpus on Final Destination, Single player practice mode doesn't allow use of the C-stick.

On to your questions. Learn to dash dance, this is simply hitting left or right during the first dash animation continuously. You can't really do anything about the lasers, just don't let them bother you and approach. If you know he is going to roll or spotdodge when you get close, just dash dance near him to make him roll or spotdodge and punish him for it. You'll find when you can shffl or just fast fall l-cancel any aerials and space your attacks well Fox will have a much harder time just rushing in on you.

I also recommend learning to Jump-cancel grabs (JC grab). Just hit X or Y then immediately hit Z while your dashing or running. This will give you more range and less delay than the normal dash grab. I also recommend using X or Y to jump and to start practicing aerial attacks with the C-stick if you haven't already done so.

 

[Pink Reaper]

your using marth, your sword out-ranges his grab and a good shffl'd Fair should be faster then the cooldown lag on his lasers, so just try and get in there and throw him off balance. Also, i suggest taking some time to learn some of the more advanced tactics with marth. One fair will stop the spam, but a series of Double fairs will destroy him. Also as the great DMX would say, Mindgames son, LEARN 'EM

 

[Ma Moi]

If someone hasn't said so yet, but marth's aerial neutral is really good too. Short hop into the neutral. Watch some of ken's videos to get some ideas. And good luck with fox. I have a firefox, up-smash, shine spamming fox friend. I feel your pain.

Edit: You also need to worry about spacing since all of marth's power is at the tip of the sword. SOrry if someone mentioned that already.. ^^;

 

[flaco]

Am Gonna point out that marth and fox is not and easy match to fight is easier for the fox to win you just need to keep him off you is like these use your range and if he passes your range grab him wait for him to miss the l cancel if he does not miss don't grab him or you will get shine combo,also like always fox is a higer rank on the tier list remember that also

 

[Pou]

One thing that i always do agaisnt my fox friend is dashing towards him, and when he shines, rolls or whatever, i "cancel" the dash with a wavedash. So if he rolls, i wavedash towards him and punish him. If he shield, i grab, and if he tries to hit me in my running with a smash, i wavedash backwards and hit him in his smash delay.
Also, after practicing advanced techniques, work on your edgeguard, your edge recovery ( i don't know if it's the right name, but i'm talking about when you're hanging on the edge and your friend is waiting for you to come back ) and your spacing.
A little tip for your edge recovering: When you're hanging there, and he's waiting for you, hit away or down ( but don't fast fall ) in the A-Stick and jump doing an Fair/Nair or dodging into the stage, it helps sometimes =]
But you're on the right track, just keep practicing ( A LOT =P )

 

[y3roc]

also, I noticed he stood at the edge and was able to wait you out. there's a marth trick I've learned by watching pros, you drop down and quickly jump up, use an aerial (usually fair), and di straight onto the edge in one smooth motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W_wd9Qf0IE
at about 1:35 azen performs it with a nair

also marth has an effective ledge-stall. you'll see ken use a shortened version of it multiple times in this matchup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LGIyOJRP7E

 

[Marthmaster92]

*cracks knuckles* read your first post, and my advice:


mindgames, son. mindgames. get inside his head. be unpredictable. personally, just shffl some aerials while you're away from him, *or just throw out some quick little attacks at random, obviously don't leave yourself open* do some dash dancing, he'll be wondering whta you're doing. Chances are he'll charge in. sidestep>grab>combo him into submission. he'll learn. and as for the up-tilt, the main thing i can suggest is try the same thing a few times, see if he has a pattern. if he does, take it into consideration and figure out how to counter it. I mean, if he just charges toward you, it's pretty simple, just juggle him. usually an up-tilt of your own ought to work just fine.


just a few basic words of advice.

 

[Charlesz]

Yeah, try to mindgame your friend more and do more shuffled f-airs. He doesnt shine or waveshine or anything in that matter. He only uses his grab and up-air, which you can DI out of or counter it, ( preferably DI) .

 

[Sailboat]

Hey guys, I've perfected a lot of these advanced techniques, and probably doubled my skill not only with Marth, but generally speaking as well. I've noticed that charging at him and then wave dashing back.. and quickly f-smashing nicely hits the tip, and creates great confusion. I've basically matched him... and I can win every time on Final D, but anywhere else it's like a 50/50 for both of us. Also, I've noticed that short hop to neutral A is a really nice move because it's almost invincible unless you miss... which causes delay.. and then he grabs me and resumes his spam of the u-smash. I've even been to the side of him (whilst in the air) when he does the u air.. and it still hits me - but again, I can match him now, and it's almost to the point where if I push myself I could probably win every time. I have come across another problem in all of this.. it's that to get my whole mind-game thing down, it takes quite a while for me to get warped up.. I start blaming my controller for it's insubordination.. etc. Do you guys have any techniques for quick warm-ups? I stopped rolling around on the floor lol, at this point I wave dash for every little attack he has.. mind games seem to work. I'll be sure to post a video asap.. and by asap I mean like a week or two.

 

[undyinglight]

Work on that grab game, up-throw chain throw works well vs fox. Up-throw to up-tilt and comboing from their works extremely well.

 

[maximus omega]

yea no rolling short hop fast fall cancel more get some good space to fair so he wont be able to grab you.