Triforce of Power: An advanced PM Ganon guide [Deleted]

[leekslap]

leekslap submitted a new guide:

Triforce of Power: An advanced PM Ganon guide - btw NOT the worst character! That would be Jigglypuff or Ice Climbers.

People complain all the time that Ganon is inferior to Falcon, and that his attacks are not canon or even near to what he does in the games. This is FALSE( well maybe not the inferior to Falcon part ). Maybe he's not as unique he could be, but holy cereal Batman! He's the most fun character in the game! There isn't another character that satisfies you with every bone crushing hit. There isn't another character who...

Read more about this guide...

 

[Yanoss1313]

Hehe, always loved that ganon picture <.<

 

[leekslap]

any input on nair?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface, ha.

There's a lot of nuance to Ganon's moves that can't really be encapsulated by a Trash-Godlike scale.

 

[CORY]

meh, it's an ok guide. not what i would think of as advanced, where it is right now, but it's a decent framework.

dash attack is ok, but i still feel like it gets underrated by a lot of people. it's decent for a burst mobility option with an extended duration hitbox, but totally not safe on shield. as opposed to dacus, which has pretty poor hitbox coverage, but is really safe on shield, because usmash is nutty.

bair and uair wavelands from a sh need to be talked about, they're very important to making ganon have some semblance of mobility. you can delay bair out of the sh a bit longer than you can the uair and still be able to wl it.

fair has tricksy timings you can play with, like full hop-fair-waveland (you can delay the fair a good amount, too). or full hop-fair-jump into whatever.

utilt is situational, but really good in those situations. the best part about it is the rear hitbox catching people and pulling them in front of you for the stomp. you can cross up people and condition them to try oos stuff, then utilt and get a huge hit. or wl an aerial ambigiously and end up behind them, then utilt.

honestly, a lot of what makes it hard to make a ganon guide is that he really has to mess with the opponent's head a lot to even get in, and you can't really make a guide about that.

 

[teluoborg]

Yes you can actually, but for that you have to explain why side B is so strong and this guide totally missed the point on that part.

@ leekslap I salute the effort of making the guide, but it's incomplete and wrong on many points.

There's no way Dtilt is better than Ftilt, dash attack is awesome because it has gigantic burst range, side B is godlike because it opens for Ganon a whole dimension of mixups and mindgames (and there's that air to ground side B tech that allows you to get the best of both worlds), Bair is as good as Uair, all the smashes are bad save for the situational Usmash, Dair doesn't autocancel from a SHFF etc etc.

You should probably read the gameplay and strategies thread from beginning to end, that should help you make your "techniques and strategies" part more complete. Small things like kicklanding and CC Jab have their place there.

No hard feelings tho, sorry if I sound rough but those are my 2 cents, and I'm willing to help you fill/correct the guide if you want.

 

[leekslap]

Yes you can actually, but for that you have to explain why side B is so strong and this guide totally missed the point on that part.

@ leekslap I salute the effort of making the guide, but it's incomplete and wrong on many points.

There's no way Dtilt is better than Ftilt, dash attack is awesome because it has gigantic burst range, side B is godlike because it opens for Ganon a whole dimension of mixups and mindgames (and there's that air to ground side B tech that allows you to get the best of both worlds), Bair is as good as Uair, all the smashes are bad save for the situational Usmash, Dair doesn't autocancel from a SHFF etc etc.

You should probably read the gameplay and strategies thread from beginning to end, that should help you make your "techniques and strategies" part more complete. Small things like kicklanding and CC Jab have their place there.

No hard feelings tho, sorry if I sound rough but those are my 2 cents, and I'm willing to help you fill/correct the guide if you want.

This was the poop draft yeah. The things you can do out of side b, simple combos, etc all that was gonna be in combos. I know side b is good. I'll check out the thread. Also, I'm pretty sure I said out of a regular non fast falled short hop and that dair didn't SHFF. Still, 2 STARS!?!? I gave that to a Pacman guide that didn't have anything worth reading! That rating will really help a lot.

 

[leekslap]

Finally updated! Website was failing so I couldn't finish reading the ganon thread.

 

[CORY]

i'll try to find time tomorrow to go through and list which characters end up sitting on the platform after a grounded flame choke on bf, ww, ps2, and any other ones that might be low enough to make opponents not just bounce to the floor.

 

[leekslap]

Finished adding the most useful stuff from the Ganon Strategies ane Gameplay thread and some elaboration on things like up air hitboxes! Just need some matchups! And maybe the thing CORY said. I'll add it anyway to not crap on his work.

 

[CORY]

somewhere around here is also a thread that has a link to a google doc someone started, trying to set up a list of what characters can be chain thrown, from what percentage to what percentage. i don't know how far and detailed it got, but that's something potentially useful to have.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Here fellas. I somehow managed to still have it. I didn't do it, but it has a few characters.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lghV-tWgvGCAmxrC7Q77nK_fmfyPorWuTX9WMv6swPU/edit#gid=0

We should really combine our Ganon knowledge and make a google doc of a Guide for him that we can all share and contribute to. You can save and edit in real time so it's awesome for many to give input.

 

[CORY]

ok, so preliminary testing results. some of this stuff just feels weird, but yeah, it is what it is...
if they're on the list, they land ON the platform. not on the list, they end up on the ground in front of you.

Spoiler: battlefield

Diddy
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Samus
Snake
Lucas
Ness
Kirby
ROB
Game n' Watch

Spoiler: Pokemon Stadium 2

Diddy
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Samus
Snake
Lucas
Ness
Kirby
ROB
Game n' Watch

for wario ware, the top platform is actually slightly closer to the one below it, than the bottom platform is to the ground. this means some characters will land on the top platform from a grounded flamechoke, but won't land on the bottom platform from a grounded flame choke.

Spoiler: Wario Ware

Diddy
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Samus
Snake
Lucas
Ness
Kirby
ROB
Game n' Watch
Bowser
Charizard
Donkey Kong
Link
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Wario
Metaknight
Peach
Pit
Sonic
Toon Link
Wolf
Zelda
Ganondorf (top platform only)
Squirtle (top platform only)
DDD (top platform only)
Ike (top platform only)
Olimar (top platform only)

edit:

Spoiler: Yoshi's Story (Melee)

Wario
Mario (only on the inside portion)
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Captain Falcon
Wolf
Fox (only on the inside. Possibly, only on the VERY inside edge)
Zelda
Shiek (only inside portion)
Link (only inside portion)
Toon Link (only inside portion)
Ganon
Mewtwo (only inside portion)
Lucario
Pikachu (only inside portion)
Jiggly
Squirtle (only inside portion)
Charizard
Samus
Zero Suit Samus (only inside portion)
Ness
Lucas
Pit
Kirby
Metaknight
Dedede
Ike
Marth (only inside portion)
Roy (only inside portion)
Olimar (only inside portion)
ROB
Snake
Sonic

treat Smashville like Battlefield. Dreamland, no one lands on the platforms. Green Hill Zone, it appears everyone will land at the platform's lowest point. it's too difficult to test more specifically on GHZ, due to timing both the platform and the flamechoke, so that's, unfortunately, going to have to be something to get a feel for at the other points.

 

[Phaiyte]

I don't know how to reply to review comments so I'll just put it here. No, there's nothing in this guide that I mentioned unless you updated it within the last 15 hours. The most that you put is just a named a move and typed what you thought about it. That's not really guide material. That's more like a really elaborate opinion.

 

[leekslap]

I don't know how to reply to review comments so I'll just put it here. No, there's nothing in this guide that I mentioned unless you updated it within the last 15 hours. The most that you put is just a named a move and typed what you thought about it. That's not really guide material. That's more like a really elaborate opinion.

Saying a move could be good for edgeguarding or walling out an opponenent is not guide material? You are thinking about guides like a strict, no coloring outside the lines, teacher. Some Ganons like to short hop up air from below a platform but others would rather full jump nair onto it. Maybe your example was just trash so gimme one that makes sense. Or just write everything you want me to add.

 

[Phaiyte]

words

idk man, I really think you should learn how to take constructive criticism before exposing any of your work or skill in anything to the general public lol.

 

[leekslap]

words

Maybe you should actually be constructive with your criticism instead of being a hypocrit.

 

[Phaiyte]

Maybe you should actually be constructive with your criticism instead of being a hypocrit.

I think you should learn what that word means before you use it.

 

[leekslap]

I think you should learn what that word means before you use it.

I'm still waiting for you to actually make sense instead of taking things personal.

 

[Spralwers]

Are any of us actually ready to write an "advanced" guide to Ganondorf? Even though at big tournaments like sktar and bh4 I can get within the top 35-40% with all Ganondorf, I still feel so far from being able to write an "advanced" guide. I'll try to add what I can though since I've had so much tourney experience with him this year.

For the grounded flame choke landing on platform guide, you can actually DI the trajectory following the choke. Wonder if that could influence whether or not a character lands on the platform.

looks like a pretty good work in progress so far. I'll comment more on it later, but I wanna address this:

one of the strongest punishes in the game

I strongly disagree with this assessment, I'd say his punishes are bottom half of the cast, probably worse. From 0 to around 60-70% he does have some sick combos, but past that, he has a Marth problem where his weak moves send people too far to combo. But, unlike Marth, Ganon doesn't have the speed to approach and pressure people who decide to camp. Ganon will generally rely on hard reads to get those last hits in, which is extremely difficult when people are camping, because at that range, Ganon is so easy to react to. Bair and fair are susceptible to killing fairly late (past 120-130% on mid weights) on bigger stages (or from the center on smaller stages) because of how easy it is to survival DI them. So many characters in this game have devastating punishes that don't rely so much on reads, while Ganon's do, so that's why I rate Ganon's punish game as one of the worst.

 

[leekslap]

Are any of us actually ready to write an "advanced" guide to Ganondorf? Even though at big tournaments like sktar and bh4 I can get within the top 35-40% with all Ganondorf, I still feel so far from being able to write an "advanced" guide. I'll try to add what I can though since I've had so much tourney experience with him this year.

For the grounded flame choke landing on platform guide, you can actually DI the trajectory following the choke. Wonder if that could influence whether or not a character lands on the platform.

looks like a pretty good work in progress so far. I'll comment more on it later, but I wanna address this:



I strongly disagree with this assessment, I'd say his punishes are bottom half of the cast, probably worse. From 0 to around 60-70% he does have some sick combos, but past that, he has a Marth problem where his weak moves send people too far to combo. But, unlike Marth, Ganon doesn't have the speed to approach and pressure people who decide to camp. Ganon will generally rely on hard reads to get those last hits in, which is extremely difficult when people are camping, because at that range, Ganon is so easy to react to. Bair and fair are susceptible to killing fairly late (past 120-130% on mid weights) on bigger stages (or from the center on smaller stages) because of how easy it is to survival DI them. So many characters in this game have devastating punishes that don't rely so much on reads, while Ganon's do, so that's why I rate Ganon's punish game as one of the worst.

Well at least it's way more indepth than SOME guides. They say using Yoshi's up b to camp is good as if they blew your mind. I like how there's 5 times more Smash 4 guides than any other game, and that at least half of them were made by scrubs.

I don't want to sound condescending, but you forgot one thing: grabs. Chain grabs. Command grabs. Grab grabs. It is so easy to punish with side b and Ganon's chain grabs are endless. I touched on punishing and mindgaming with side b on my guide.

 

[Electric Tuba]

@ Spralwers From your argument I don't think we're all working off of the same definition of "punishes". When I say a punisher I mean someone who capitalizes on opponents' mistakes and 'punishes' unsafe attacks. This can include straight up reads, but isn't usually super combo focused.

@ leekslap just because it's better than other guides doesn't make it great or advanced.
Aside from that, grabs aren't always as hot as you make them sound. They can be real good, but here's the daily reminder that G-man's grab range is garbage (supes bad) and that on some characters all he can get from down throw is and up air or bair.
Flame choke can also be extremely powerful, but if you miss your opponent gets to hit you with pretty much whatever they want. Even if you do hit, there's zero guaranteed followups on many characters if they just DI down and tech.

That's not to say these moves are bad, just that they definitely have their niche.

 

[leekslap]

@ Spralwers From your argument I don't think we're all working off of the same definition of "punishes". When I say a punisher I mean someone who capitalizes on opponents' mistakes and 'punishes' unsafe attacks. This can include straight up reads, but isn't usually super combo focused.

@ leekslap just because it's better than other guides doesn't make it great or advanced.
Aside from that, grabs aren't always as hot as you make them sound. They can be real good, but here's the daily reminder that G-man's grab range is garbage (supes bad) and that on some characters all he can get from down throw is and up air or bair.
Flame choke can also be extremely powerful, but if you miss your opponent gets to hit you with pretty much whatever they want. Even if you do hit, there's zero guaranteed followups on many characters if they just DI down and tech.

That's not to say these moves are bad, just that they definitely have their niche.

Techchasing is still a good spot to be in. Flame Choke is such a win-win move you know. Also, Flame Choke is better off as a mixup or combo ( starter ) moveset. Once it gets predictable, you should stop using it.

 

[CORY]

For the grounded flame choke landing on platform guide, you can actually DI the trajectory following the choke. Wonder if that could influence whether or not a character lands on the platform.

yeah, that thought actually crossed my mind, but i don't feel like performing hand/feet gymnastics while testing so i haven't messed with that yet ;x

sometime this weekend i'm going to try to finish up the basics with yoshi's island melee, see if anyone lands on the platform in dreamland (doubt it) and then try to find out if i can get consistent results with ghz's swinging platform (this is going to be a serious pain...).

 

[leekslap]

Updated! Now I gotta test chain grab percents *groan*. And frame data. And I gotta revise the whole thing.

 

[CORY]

when you test chain grab percents, you actually do need to do it with di. keep that in mind.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Honestly I think I'll make a guide 3.5. Also y'think maybe his chaingrab will be removed/harder to execute? Thats why I wouldn't put too much time into figuring it ou

 

[leekslap]

Honestly I think I'll make a guide 3.5. Also y'think maybe his chaingrab will be removed/harder to execute? Thats why I wouldn't put too much time into figuring it ou

Why would the PMDT nerf Ganon? He's already a low tier! If anything, they'd buff Ganon by giving him longer grab range and better forward and back throws like in Brawl. Also, meld in some Smash 4. And hopefully a new neutral b. I mean, with all the costumes and redone animations, I don't think the PMDT has forgot poor old Ganon.

 

[CORY]

because chain grabs are stupid, and they might just try to get rid of a lot of them, whenever possible.

 

[leekslap]

because chain grabs are stupid, and they might just try to get rid of a lot of them, whenever possible.

But Ganon's punishes would be garbage( well not really but you get the point )! I could understand if they did that for Mario, but Ganon needs all he can get. Plus, wouldn't you think it would've come up in the recent balance blog posts?

 

[CORY]

not necessarily. they don't talk about everything in the posts, i've seen some changes from playing with our playtester that haven't been put up yet.

i'm also pretty sure they won't change too many chaingrabs just because doing so would hurt the character more than whatever their adjustments would be. doesn't make chaingrabs less stupid.

onto further testing results: as per the usual, if the character's listed, they land on the platform (with any addendums noted)

Spoiler: Yoshi's Story (Melee)

Wario
Mario (only on the inside portion)
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Captain Falcon
Wolf
Fox (only on the inside. Possibly, only on the VERY inside edge)
Zelda
Shiek (only inside portion)
Link (only inside portion)
Toon Link (only inside portion)
Ganon
Mewtwo (only inside portion)
Lucario
Pikachu (only inside portion)
Jiggly
Squirtle (only inside portion)
Charizard
Samus
Zero Suit Samus (only inside portion)
Ness
Lucas
Pit
Kirby
Metaknight
Dedede
Ike
Marth (only inside portion)
Roy (only inside portion)
Olimar (only inside portion)
ROB
Snake
Sonic

from what i can tell, all characters will land on GHZ's platform during it's lowest point, even though it doesn't seem to be the lowest platform (i think the inside of yoshi's and the top platform of ww are lower down). might be because of it's moving?

smashville seems to match up to bf, characterwise.

@ Spralwers i did a bit of testing (went to WW with DDD, falcon, and fox. did the side b and held to the side with my foot for the other character). they would land on the ground where you would expect with proper di. i'm pretty sure that release point isn't affected by the di, and it seems that the release point is all that's important for determining if the character lands on the platform.

but, release points seem super weird. like, falcon lands on pretty much every platform, but jiggly doesn't. it's all kinds of odd...

 

[leekslap]

This guide has been removed and is no longer available.