TRG's first good OU team

[The Real Gamer]

This is the first RMT I've made, so go easy on me. I've been into competitive Pokemon for about 2 months now and this team has gotten me the best win/loss ratio I've ever had so far on Shoddy so I'm very happy with it so far.

This is an extremely offensive team that constantly puts pressure on my opponent; no matter what I have out. Every Pokeon on this team has the potential to sweep and most of them have diverse attacking moves, so I pretty much thrive off of forcing my opponent to switch and make a mistake. But at the same time, I have a couple of status absorbers and Pokes that can easily come in on attacks, so I can switch stuff around when I need to. I'd love to hear how I could make this team any better, because it's already pretty dang good!

Jirachi @ Lum Berry
Jolly / Serene Grace
80 HP/252 Atk/176 Spe
~Iron Head
~Stealth Rock
~Thunder Wave
~U-turn

This guy does it all. It can scout, lay SR, spread status, absorb status and sweep under the right conditions. But the Lum Berry is really what makes this Rachi shine. I was having major problems against lead Machamps until I tried this set out. First I use TW to break his Lum Berry, while I absorb Champ's punch and then proceed to lay down SR the turn after. Then I immediately send out Breloom and my opponent is forced to switch, which puts the momentum back on my side. I'm not stupid though and I know that I don't HAVE to get SR up asap, so I sometimes save this guy for late game status spreading/sweeping because he can really **** some Pokes up with flinch hax.

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Adamant / Poison Heal
12 HP/252 Atk/244 Spe
~Spore
~Substitute
~Focus Punch
~Seed Bomb

Standard spore puncher Breloom. Absorbs status, puts things to sleep, sets up a sub and punches babies. This guy is the ultimate Swampert (who is a bit of a pain for this team) counter because it easily comes in on EQ or Surf, and I usually sub right after to see if it switches out or not. If it doesn't I just Seed Bomb it and get a free kill. Breloom always gets the job done.

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Jolly / Levitate
4 HP/252 Atk/ 252 Spd
~Earthquake
~Outrage
~U-turn
~Thunderpunch

**** DDmence, **** DDtar, **** Agiligross, **** DDgyra, **** Scarftran, and **** rain dance boosted Kingdra. All of the above mentioned Pokemon were huge threats to this team, until I put this beast of a Pokemon on it. This set outspeeds all of the above mentioned Pokes (Speed ties +natured DDmence) and OHKOs most of them. "YES! I'm about to get an easy DD with Salamence. Now he's gonna sweep everything!" NOT. Who says DD Salamence is un-counterable without Latias? His amazing typing allows me to come in on a bunch of attacks and force a switch. U-turn is amazing on this team because when I do force switches, I'm almost always able to maintain pressure on my opponent by switching to an appropriate sweeper. I love this guy.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Rash / Flash Fire
4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SpA
~Fire Blast
~Earth Power
~Explosion
~Hidden Power Ice

Standard Scarftran with HP Ice instead of Dragon Pulse and here is why: DP is better than HP Ice only for Kingdra, which I don't have a problem with at all (see Flygon). But HP Ice is mainly for Gliscor, and it hits all of the other dragons harder (including Flygon). Heatran is amazing because he's fast, he hits extremely hard, and he's very easy to switch in. A lot of times I'll get rid of my opponent's Fire Blast resistant Pokemon just so Heatran can sweep through my opponents team late game. He also has really good synergy with Flygon. He comes in on any Ice attacks directed at Flygon, while Flygon easily comes in on Ground attacks aimed towards Heatran.

Starmie @ Life Orb
Timid / Natural Cure
4 HP/252 Spd/252 SpA
~Hydro Pump
~Thunderbolt
~Ice Beam
~Thunder Wave

Starmie sweeps like a boss and counters many non-scarfed sweepers such as Lucario, Infernape, and Mixmence. TW is amazing because my opponents often switch when they see my faster sweeper, but then it's too late when one of their pokemon (usually T-tar) ends up getting paralyzed. Paralysis is underestimated and it works extremely well when I still have Jirachi around for flinchhaxing stuff. My team is pretty SR resistant, and my Leadrachi almost always takes down Roserade before it can set up Toxic Spikes, so I don't feel like Rapid Spin is necessary. I often get a free 2HKO on people who switch to Rotom for a spinblock. And I don't fear dieing from Scarftar at all. It gives me a free sub with Breloom after they Pursuit. The only thing I don't like about Starmie is that it's the hardest Pokemon on my team to switch in. It sucks at coming in on attacks.

Salamence @ Life Orb
Naive / Intimidate
16 Atk/252 Spe/240 SpA
~Draco Meteor
~Outrage
~Fire Blast
~Earthquake

Standard Mixmence. Out of my whole team, I'm most willing to get rid of this guy if I need to make any changes. He does okay, but he's not good at switching in (SR doesn't help), and I feel like he's pretty unecessary since I already have Flygon for stab Outrage, stab Earthquake, and Heatran for stab Fire Blast. I think I want a different Pokemon here but idk what yet. My top two choices atm are Infernape since Latias is now gone or Machamp since I still don't have an answer for Crocune. Any feedback here would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[Wave⁂]

Flygon speed ties with +nature +1 Salamence, and is outsped by non-mixed Rain Dance Kingdra.

Starmie (with or without a Scarf) ***** your ****. Flygon doesn't OHKO with Thunderpunch, but if Starmie has Life Orb and you're got Stealth Rocks up, it pretty much will die. Heatran can Explode on it, I guess.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Flygon speed ties with +nature +1 Salamence, and is outsped by non-mixed Rain Dance Kingdra.

Starmie (with or without a Scarf) ***** your ****. Flygon doesn't OHKO with Thunderpunch, but if Starmie has Life Orb and you're got Stealth Rocks up, it pretty much will die. Heatran can Explode on it, I guess.

I've only gone up against Kingdra twice in the rain, and I was able to outspeed it both times, so I guess both times my opponent used the mixed set. And I've outsped DD Salamence every time... Am I realy that lucky?

And I've never had Starmie problems. If I got killed by it I would switch in Flygon, U-turn it, and hopefully Heatran will take an incoming Ice Beam. Then I'd just finish it with Fire Blast.

 

[UltiMario]

Agiligross can also be faster than you if it wants to be.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Idk the numbers exactly but I've outsped all of the above mentioned Pokes so far with Flygon, whether it was just plain luck or my opponent not having the right EVs. But I still haven't gotten swept by anything that tries to boost its speed since I've had Flygon on the team, so I'm not going to change it. :\

Can we try to focus on Salamence more?

 

[Gates]

My general advice on MixMence variants is this:

Try DDMence for a while and see how much better your team does.

MixMence can be good, but DDMence is the standard for a reason.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I'll give this a full rate sometime late tonight when I don't feel like studying anymore. =D

 

[The Real Gamer]

My general advice on MixMence variants is this:

Try DDMence for a while and see how much better your team does.

MixMence can be good, but DDMence is the standard for a reason.

Yeah I'll switch over to the DD set and see how well it works out.

I'll give this a full rate sometime late tonight when I don't feel like studying anymore. =D

I look forward to it!

EDIT: @ Annoying- I just outsped yet another DDMence with Flygon... for about the 8th time in a row.

 

[Circa]

Agiligross can also be faster than you if it wants to be.

This is true. And it feels mega sexy when the extra speed gets put to good use as well.

 

[Wave⁂]

EDIT: @ Annoying- I just outsped yet another DDMence with Flygon... for about the 8th time in a row.

They're probably Naughty or Rash.

 

[Riddle]

This is true. And it feels mega sexy when the extra speed gets put to good use as well.

It feels so much sexier when you get the attack boost and then you kill everything before exploding on their last pokemon.

 

[UltiMario]

They're probably Naughty or Rash.

He also probably won a few speed ties as as well.

Don't think we're lying about this or anything TRG, they both have base 100 speed and are BOTH at +1. You're just stupidly lucky.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I don't think you two are lying. It's just the fact that I've outsped so many DDmences is what made it hard for me to believe. So it speed ties all +natured DDmences. Okay I now have that established.

I'm still not exactly sure how it fares against Swift Swim Kingdra though. It's supposed to outrun Flygon, but the fact that I've outsped it twice confuses me. What is the most common Kingdra set?

EDIT: I'm about to start testing out DDmence. I'll see how well it fares.

 

[kirbyraeg]

This is the first RMT I've made, so go easy on me. I've been into competitive Pokemon for about 2 months now and this team has gotten me the best win/loss ratio I've ever had so far on Shoddy so I'm very happy with it so far.

This is an extremely offensive team that constantly puts pressure on my opponent; no matter what I have out. Every Pokeon on this team has the potential to sweep and most of them have diverse attacking moves, so I pretty much thrive off of forcing my opponent to switch and make a mistake. But at the same time, I have a couple of status absorbers and Pokes that can easily come in on attacks, so I can switch stuff around when I need to. I'd love to hear how I could make this team any better, because it's already pretty dang good!

Jirachi @ Lum Berry
Jolly / Serene Grace
80 HP/252 Atk/176 Spe 40 HP/252 Atk/216 Spe or 252 HP/40 Atk/216 Spe
~Iron Head
~Stealth Rock
~Thunder Wave
~U-turn

This guy does it all. It can scout, lay SR, spread status, absorb status and sweep under the right conditions. But the Lum Berry is really what makes this Rachi shine. I was having major problems against lead Machamps until I tried this set out. First I use TW to break his Lum Berry, while I absorb Champ's punch and then proceed to lay down SR the turn after. Then I immediately send out Breloom and my opponent is forced to switch, which puts the momentum back on my side. I'm not stupid though and I know that I don't HAVE to get SR up asap, so I sometimes save this guy for late game status spreading/sweeping because he can really **** some Pokes up with flinch hax.
I like this lead set, but considering you want it to stick around and spread status, I'd consider giving it a bulkier spread while also giving it an extra 40 Spe so it can SR before slower leads like Gliscor Taunts you and U-turn out of Roserade's 2nd sleep powder/hp fire. Extra bulk would mean he can't really sweep in the late-game without a coverage move, but with just iron head to work with as far as sweeping goes it really doesn't do you that much good to pump Attack. Doing more damage with u-turn is nice, but since flygon acts as an all-purpose check to lots of setup threats you should consider making it bulky enough to survive non-boosted EQs and to serve as a better check to lower-power sweepers like agiligross, as relying on something as frail as flygon to protect you against ALL those threats is kind of dangerous, as all it really takes is one predicted attack when they realize that's the only thing keeping them from setting up and killing you. Either choice is fine though for this team, as the power is helpful.

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Adamant / Poison Heal
12 HP/252 Atk/244 Spe
~Spore
~Substitute
~Focus Punch
~Seed Bomb

Standard spore puncher Breloom. Absorbs status, puts things to sleep, sets up a sub and punches babies. This guy is the ultimate Swampert (who is a bit of a pain for this team) counter because it easily comes in on EQ or Surf, and I usually sub right after to see if it switches out or not. If it doesn't I just Seed Bomb it and get a free kill. Breloom always gets the job done.
I do NOT like Breloom as a swampert counter. It works, but I totally just don't like it because it can be played around, as a relaxed mixpert's Ice Beam does up to 80% on the given spread you have AND if swampert is coming in after it's set up rocks it can also roar out breloom as it switches in, weakening it farther. I think to fit your general theme of bulky offense you should run an offensive Celebi here for a few reasons:
1: It pairs up well with Heatran and Starmie.
2: It'll help with your problem with Crocune.
3: It can spread status itself and still beat swampert.
4: It can also take status itself and switch out of it (only problem being Toxic Spikes but we'll get to that later)

Celebi @ Life Orb
232 HP/40 Spe/236 SpAtk
Modest / Natural Cure

Thunder Wave
Earth Power/HP Fire
Leaf Storm
Rest/Recover/HP Fire

The goal is to spread paralysis and smack Celebi's normal switch-ins, all of which this team would like gone (You don't have a real solid switch into scizor's u-turn, as Heatran gives a free pass to Vaporeon to come in and pass wish to its teammates and Salamence draws out their fast sweepers like Starmie/Infernape/etc. who you also don't really like to switch in on). This set is highly reliant on scouting, but as soon as you know a bit of the opponent's team you will best be able to use this set, as it can beat a lot of its counters depending on its move choice. It can paralyze most things that switch-in, and leaf storm is a guaranteed OHKO on every ground-type that switches in, so it really just takes a bit of scouting from you to know whether their primary switch vs. celebi is a heatran, a scizor, a faster sweeper like infernape, or something like a flygon (which you can OHKO guaranteed with leaf storm on the switch). When you bring celebi in next you can predict and ruin their primary switch if it is something that can't be paralyzed that does still threaten you. Be aware that the absence of leftovers recovery might make some players cautious though, but the power of Life Orb is important for this set.
The last move is a toss-up, but I like running Rest as natural cure will really give it opportunities to come in, heal itself, then switch out ready to fight again, plus it likes having a form of recovery as it isn't running leftovers. Recover gives you that same recovery without forcing you to switch out right after, and HP fire is listed again because getting rid of scizor is SEXY for this team who doesn't like choiced u-turns all over the place.

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Jolly / Levitate
4 HP/252 Atk/ 252 Spd
~Earthquake
~Outrage
~U-turn
~Thunderpunch

**** DDmence, **** DDtar, **** Agiligross, **** DDgyra, **** Scarftran, and **** rain dance boosted Kingdra. All of the above mentioned Pokemon were huge threats to this team, until I put this beast of a Pokemon on it. This set outspeeds all of the above mentioned Pokes (Speed ties +natured DDmence) and OHKOs most of them. "YES! I'm about to get an easy DD with Salamence. Now he's gonna sweep everything!" NOT. Who says DD Salamence is un-counterable without Latias? His amazing typing allows me to come in on a bunch of attacks and force a switch. U-turn is amazing on this team because when I do force switches, I'm almost always able to maintain pressure on my opponent by switching to an appropriate sweeper. I love this guy.
A necessary evil, but not something I'd rely on to counter tyranitar just because of its potential to be running a choice set (or even a sub set!) is there and flygon is just not bulky enough to take more than one of those powerful hits, after which it can be cleaned up by something like an extremespeed from Lucario. I know there are no real checks to DDMence short of stab Ice Shard which is an option but you need this Flygon to also protect against the other listed threats. ScarfMamo is a flavor option that could work here, but I don't think it's a good to run it on your team just because it doesn't have a lot of switch-in options.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf Life Orb
Rash / Flash Fire
4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SpA
~Fire Blast
~Earth Power
~Explosion
~Hidden Power Ice Substitute

Standard Scarftran with HP Ice instead of Dragon Pulse and here is why: DP is better than HP Ice only for Kingdra, which I don't have a problem with at all (see Flygon). But HP Ice is mainly for Gliscor, and it hits all of the other dragons harder (including Flygon). Heatran is amazing because he's fast, he hits extremely hard, and he's very easy to switch in. A lot of times I'll get rid of my opponent's Fire Blast resistant Pokemon just so Heatran can sweep through my opponents team late game. He also has really good synergy with Flygon. He comes in on any Ice attacks directed at Flygon, while Flygon easily comes in on Ground attacks aimed towards Heatran.
Heatran is good for this team, and it does complement Flygon/Breloom (or Celebi if you follow my suggestion) well, but I would not suggest a Scarf Set for it. Running a LO Sub set will help weaken the opponent's team a lot better for another one of your guys to sweep through, and it can still deal with blissey with Explosion (unless they're smart enough to double switch vs. subTran with Blissey into their fire resist/ghost predicting Explosion, which most people will not risk simply because hardly anything is defensive enough to tank 2 attacks from Heatran with SR up). Celebi is also a better switch-in to vappy and suicune than breloom is, so you can afford to not cover bulkier waters and dragons who you can revenge with flygon (or smack from behind your sub and then predict their response). This also gives you significantly more power and can better sweep a paralyzed team, which Jirachi and Celebi together should be able to make happen

Starmie @ Life Orb
Timid / Natural Cure
4 HP/252 Spd/252 SpA
~Hydro Pump
~Thunderbolt
~Ice Beam
~Thunder Wave Recover

Starmie sweeps like a boss and counters many non-scarfed sweepers such as Lucario, Infernape, and Mixmence. TW is amazing because my opponents often switch when they see my faster sweeper, but then it's too late when one of their pokemon (usually T-tar) ends up getting paralyzed. Paralysis is underestimated and it works extremely well when I still have Jirachi around for flinchhaxing stuff. My team is pretty SR resistant, and my Leadrachi almost always takes down Roserade before it can set up Toxic Spikes, so I don't feel like Rapid Spin is necessary. I often get a free 2HKO on people who switch to Rotom for a spinblock. And I don't fear dieing from Scarftar at all. It gives me a free sub with Breloom after they Pursuit. The only thing I don't like about Starmie is that it's the hardest Pokemon on my team to switch in. It sucks at coming in on attacks.
STarmie isn't really meant to be switched in on attacks, if you wanted that you'd use something bulkier like Lati-OH WAIT

Basically you don't need a 3rd Twave abuser, so go with Recover here. Starmie is really best as a sweeper, its spinning days are over now that scarftar is popular. There's another spin (lol) you could try since Starmie forces a lot of switches and is a great late-game sweeper, but it's kind of gimmicky:

Starmie @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Timid / Natural Cure
4 Def/252 SpAtk/252 Spe

Gravity
Hydro Pump
Thunder/Recover
Blizzard/Recover

Being able to use those higher-powered moves at the cost of one turn of setup can make or break a late-game sweep tbh, and if extra power is your thing that might be the set for you. You can choose to run Recover over either part of boltbeam but it's only if you really want to, as this set focuses on being "The Last Sweeper". Leftovers on this gravity set gives you similar power on your coverage moves as LO+boltbeam, so it can give you a nice bit of longevity if that's your style (which means with LO your coverage attacks will be roughly x1.3 more powerful than normal).

Salamence @ Life Orb
Naive / Intimidate
16 Atk/252 Spe/240 SpA
~Draco Meteor
~Outrage
~Fire Blast
~Earthquake

Standard Mixmence. Out of my whole team, I'm most willing to get rid of this guy if I need to make any changes. He does okay, but he's not good at switching in (SR doesn't help), and I feel like he's pretty unecessary since I already have Flygon for stab Outrage, stab Earthquake, and Heatran for stab Fire Blast. I think I want a different Pokemon here but idk what yet. My top two choices atm are Infernape since Latias is now gone or Machamp since I still don't have an answer for Crocune. Any feedback here would be greatly appreciated.
Mixmence is a good pokemon here, but having two dragons (and a regular Ice weakness as well with either breloom or Celebi) isn't the best of ideas without full support, so I'd suggest running a slightly different set with a different pokemon.

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Adamant / Inner Focus
252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def

Outrage
Extremespeed
Earthquake
Aqua Tail/Dragon Claw

Good coverage, more raw power than your mixmence set, nicer special defense to come in on a lot of attacks, and outrage having a good chance to 2hko every wall on the switch.
The main reason to use Dragonite over a similar Mence set is its higher special defense and the ability to actually sweep late-game with CB Extremespeed, which is about 1/3 more powerful than Lucario's LO extremespeed without a boost.

EDIT: Ran some calcs, and Extremespeed coming from this Dragonite does 53-63% to 0/0 Naive Salamence, which means that with Stealth Rock you can cut this guy's sweep short if you hit it once with pretty much anything after it switches in on SR.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Commends in Red, hope this gives you something to think about

Edit: To clarify Special-only Kingdra can run max speed, which outspeeds even Scarfed Latias, but most people run extra HP to offset kingdra's relative lack of bulk. Mixed Kindgra just outruns scarfed Heatran. Agiligross will only outspeed Flygon if it runs Jolly, which is pretty ****ing useless on it, etc. xD

Edit 2: Made some small fixes and grammar edits.

 

[mood4food77]

breloom and heatran have great synergy together and breloom works fine as a swampert counter, just don't switch it in if you have a dragon poke out

you have too many pokemon weak to ice attacks

i suggest you honostly lose either salamence or flygon and just find something else that will work well with your team and honostly, swampert would do a great job on this team, he keeps dragons in check with ice beam and your team covers his grass weakness very well as it is already

it's either that or wish support since you have quite a few pokes running life orb

 

[The Real Gamer]

The amount of effort you put into these team rates is greatly appreciated Kirbyraeg. Here are my thoughts about each:

Jirachi- I agree with having a defensive spread over an offensive one. Once it lays SR down, its main goal is to spread status and not necessarily sweep. I already have plenty of sweepers on this team. And being able to take a non-boosted EQ sounds great.

Breloom- Breloom is definitely an extreme. It either does really well or really bad depending on how smart my opponent is. And unlike the rest of my team, it can't sweep at all if its up against any decently fast sweeper. But that Celebi looks fantastic. I could use a status absorber/spreader that could actually take down Crocune. Plus it can take hits a lot better, and I could use the most bulky offense that I can get.

Flygon- Yeah Flygon is necessary. And I love using it against DDgyra because they never see the Thunderpunch coming.

Heatran- I was actually thinking about using Subtran instead but I felt like I needed the extra speed. Scarftran has its ups and downs. It makes a fantastic late game sweeper when I can get rid of all of my opponent's FB resistant Pokemon, but its really annoying to use early game because he almost always draws out Blissey/other Heatran/bulky waters and gets locked into FB. I almost always force switches when I bring him out early game, and maybe the speed won't be necessary since I have 2 TWers, so I'll try Subtran instead.

Starmie- That new Starmie you gave me confuses the heck out of me. Lol I'm still pretty nubish so I don't understand what that particular set it trying to accomplish. How would Gravity benefit this team? And don't Blizzard and Thunder miss too much to be used over Thunderbolt and Ice Beam?

Salamence- So with this I'm trading some speed and the ability to change attacks (if not locked into Outrage) for more power, bulkiness, and a priority move. But once again speed won't be too much of an issue since I have TWers. I think this guy could do some good on this team.

@mood4food- Yeah I do have a bit of an Ice weakness but Heatran, Starmie, and Jirachi all resist Ice moves if I ever need to switch them in. And I'm going to try Celebi instead of Breloom. I want to see how well it does on this team.

 

[mood4food77]

gravity makes flying types...non-flying types

 

[The Real Gamer]

So it grounds all Flying types. I'm guessing it works on Levitate too? I still don't understand how this would be more beneficial than TW though. I get to hit a couple of Flying types with EQ now... What's the big deal?

EDIT: Can Dragonite not learn Extremespeed now? I'm here in the Team Builder and Extreemespeed isn't in its movepool...

 

[mood4food77]

yea, it does

it"s a gimmick though

 

[kirbyraeg]

The big reason to use Gravity is because it boosts move accuracy by 2 stages. That means no sand veil hax, and Thunder/Blizzard/Hydro Pump will all have 100% accuracy, which is why it can be suited to be a late-game sweeper. It's just a more powerful version of your existing starmie that takes a turn of setup (which works perfectly with recover over twave by the way).

OK, time for a gravity primer:

Gravity removes the flying-type and nullifies Levitate, meaning that those pokemon will be hit by Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and ground moves. It also makes those pokemon trappable with Arena Trap, though they can still escape with U-turn/Baton Pass.
Gravity reduces evasion by 2 stages, which gives the net effect of boosting 60% acc. moves to 100%. 50->83%, 55->92%, and anything higher will be guaranteed to hit. You can take advantage of full move accuracy and grounding by knowing that you will never lose because of an untimely miss.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Oh okay. I'll try it out then!

And Dragonite doesn't learn Extremespeed anymore according to the Team Builder.

 

[Sir Bedevere]

It's an HG/SS-only move; you need to make your team in the main Smogon server in order for you to see it.

/onlyhelpI'llbe

 

[The Real Gamer]

Okay I finally got it. Thank you.

 

[Wave⁂]

I don't think you two are lying. It's just the fact that I've outsped so many DDmences is what made it hard for me to believe. So it speed ties all +natured DDmences. Okay I now have that established.

I'm still not exactly sure how it fares against Swift Swim Kingdra though. It's supposed to outrun Flygon, but the fact that I've outsped it twice confuses me. What is the most common Kingdra set?

This is going to be... complicated.

Under the very incorrect assumption that the only Kingdra sets are used are from the Smogon analysis, you are only outsped by a certain Modest pure specially attacking Kingdra. Only 14.5% of Kingdra run Modest, so you have that covered.

http://cap.smogon.com/ShoddyStats/2010-04/Smogon-201004-Details-Standard.html

| Kingdra    | Move         | Dragon Dance     |    60.5 |
| Kingdra    | Move         | Rain Dance       |    35.3 |

| Kingdra    | Nature       | Adamant          |    51.9 |
| Kingdra    | Nature       | Naughty          |    15.7 |
| Kingdra    | Nature       | Modest           |    14.5 |
| Kingdra    | Nature       | Other (6)        | <   4.9 |

| Kingdra    | Speed EV     | Max              |    47.1 |
| Kingdra    | Speed EV     | Very Low (<50)   |    13.8 |
| Kingdra    | Speed EV     | None             |    11.0 |
| Kingdra    | Speed EV     | Very High (200+) |    11.0 |
| Kingdra    | Speed EV     | Other (3)        | <  10.4 |

So, right off the bat, you can revenge kill two out of three Kingdra, provided they don't somehow get two Dragon Dances up.

Of that 35.3% that you don't automatically win against, they need to be running 164 Speed EVs to outspeed you (a negligible number of Kingdra run +speed natures). A rough estimate is that you will be outsped 60% of the time. However, because the statistics given don't differentiate between Dragon Dance and Rain Dance, the number is in all likelihood much smaller.

So basically, no one knows.

Can Dragonite not learn Extremespeed now? I'm here in the Team Builder and Extreemespeed isn't in its movepool...

Teams that were created a long time ago don't have some HG/SS moves.

yea, it does

it"s a gimmick though

lol no

 

[mood4food77]

gravity is a gimmicky move in general

you can make it work with a good team around it but it's not something to use by it's self

 

[Wave⁂]

At the cost of one turn, Gravity usually doesn't give enough profits to make it worthwhile.

 

[Gates]

I don't even think you can make Gravity good with a team built around it tbh. We tried that a while back in Ubers since kirbyraeg suggested it and it was just awful. On the one hand it's Ubers, but still.

 

[mood4food77]

it has to be used when something is forced to switch, like going to revenge kill a high life infernape and making a set around it just isn't...smart

 

[kirbyraeg]

Well, it was a secondary suggestion...

But as a final sweeper who's resistant to a lot of priority it wouldn't be too bad. I really like using Starmie and nothing is quite as frustrating as hydro pump missing...

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'm currently on vacation right now but I'll update the OP as soon as I get back, because I have a few questions about Dragonite and Celebi.