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Transcending Barriers: Transgender Women in Smash

The Smash community has long been known as a 'community for everyone', and it shows through our actions. We have built our community around a love of Nintendo, the Smash series, and each other. As Prog so eloquently put it: "It doesn't matter if you're disabled, your race, gender expression, or your sexual orientation. It matters more what game you play and what character you're playing." We have seen transgender women like Maria "Remilia" Creveling and Ricki Sophie Ortiz have success within the professional gaming community, and the same can be said for the Smash community.

Within Smash there are several high profile Smash players like CT | Nyani and Aether | Xaltis who regularly attend and even commentate at events. Community projects like Smash Sisters, special side events hosted at tournaments for female players, have trans-women competing regardless of their current status within transition. "I'd say [Smash] is a safe haven from problems at home," Cosmic Witch, a trans Smasher, told us. "Everyone is supportive and very nice." Xaltis, who attended the first Smash Sisters event, also had a glowing review: "Smash Sisters has done wonders for me, the all girls event allowing me to participate even though I am trans made me feel great about myself."


The First #SmashSisters Event Had Crew Battles At Genesis 3

While the Smash Sisters event was heavily praised, Nyani mentioned that some trans-women who had not yet transitioned were worried about if they belonged at the event: "The heartbreaking part for me was seeing that there were certainly a few pre-transition individuals who expressed not feeling like they belonged. Though i felt that it came more from a personal place of shyness rather than them feeling the environment didn't welcome them." However, she was firm in saying, "Smash Sisters is for ALL the sisters."

Some have expressed concern with the potential for trolls or those trying to 'make a statement' to potentially bring down the event as well due to its acceptance of pre-transitioned competitors. "Why shouldn't, say, notorious troll Angel Cortes don a dress and claim to be trans for a day just to try and snipe some prize money?" Nyani wondered. "The idea here is that we don't really define being of the female gender by looks or anything and gender identity is something that only you can know for sure about yourself. There's no solid grounds to refute them doing so, and challenging someone on it gets into the sketchy territory of aggressively gendering someone."

Despite this, she felt confident such a thing would likely not happen, or if it did, it wouldn't be very impactful. "I think the big thing is that so far, there has been no actual prize money involved in Smash Sisters events. So really, aside from just trying to 'make some kind of statement', there's not much reason for anyone to try to do that. Even if they did, wouldn't it more so just make the statement that Smashers are just super accepting of everyone? Overall the most important thing is that it seems the events are being respected, and if it's an attitude of respect we're seeing then efforts to undermine these events from within the community should be pretty uncommon."


Xaltis With A Luma In Tow

Even outside of events catering to women, many trans Smashers have found attending live events to be a very positive experience after transitioning. "The majority of the smash community seems to treat me as if nothing has changed," Snakeee, another transgender Smasher, told us. "I definitely prefer that over people being negative about it, but really I appreciate the ones that notice my changes in a positive light, and even pay me compliments."

Xaltis recalled her first time coming out to the community at a major event: "My first event I came out to the community was EVO 2015. Only my South Florida scene knew about me at that time. But most of the Smash community at EVO was accepting of it."

As sad as it is, even within our accepting community there are still dangers for these women at events. "Nobody should have to have any worries when attending events! Trans, CIS, purple, elves, even Sonic mains. Everyone should be able to waltz in worry free, pal around with the other players, and smash some bros." Nyani said. "However, I understand that this is not the world we live in."

Xaltis discussed on how the community still has issues despite its generally positive nature: "Not every player has been supportive of this, some have even said negative things about it. Stream chats continue to remain negative about it, but I think over time they will get better."

Nyani herself was personally outed as trans during some serious issues involving Alex Strife, a once prominent tournament organizer for the Apex tournament series. Other trans-women receive harassment at events as well. "For events there is the stream chat and maybe a few people who will give you weird looks," Xaltis explained. "This also goes to when you get food at places near the event." Nyani also added, "A lot of people fail to realize is, especially for trans people early in transition, or those of a lower level of passing, the threat of violence can be very real."

With these risks in mind, Nyani had ideas on how events could be made a better place for trans-women to attend: "I think the biggest thing is probably something that carries over from society in general, and that's respecting the identities of trans people based not so much on what you see, but on who they feel they are. Or more simply, don't judge non-passing trans individuals, especially behind their backs. A lot of us are coming from different points in transition, some further along than others. So, some people may be eager to use pronouns that fit their desired gender, while some may be shy to start doing so until they feel they're 'passing'. Same goes with names, and clothing."

A unique issue with players transitioning in the community is the alias they use while gaming. "A lot of long-time members of the community have been finding the confidence to transition in recent years," Nyani told us. "A VERY important thing about this is that if they choose to change tags, that needs to be respected. In Smash, a tag is basically your name within the scene. As such, a lot of trans individuals, myself included, will associate an old tag with their old self, and very much prefer not to be called by it. I don't want to hear any 'Hey didn't you used to be (x)' types of comments - focus more on the now."

Nyani Competing With Her Signature Mii Swordfighter

Both Nyani and Xaltis had words of encouragement for those within the community who are transgender. "Believe in yourself," Nyani said. "If you feel your identity doesn't match your gender role, physical presentation, or what have you, don't get caught up wondering if that makes you weird, defective, or if it's just silly. You are who you are, and nobody knows that better than you. A lot of people are going to have a lot of things to say about it, but at the end of the day, what's the MOST important, is what YOU think about you. Learn to value your view of yourself above all others, learn to love yourself for who you are, and you'll be invincible."

Xaltis had this to say: "I always wish I would have come out and started everything when I was younger. But MAKE SURE your families would be okay with it; in some cases families are not always supportive of the transgender lives and make it hard on their kids.

Don't be afraid to be yourself, whether you're a trans girl or a trans boy. Everyone should be welcomed in the Smash community. Just have fun and play the game while hanging out with your buddies. There's many people who are accepting of transgender people, so don't be discouraged if you come across a couple who aren't accepting or supportive of you."


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Editor's Note: We may have room to improve, but as a whole our community is a positive force in the world of competitive eSports. As transgender women break barriers within eSports and find acceptance, hopefully our community serves as a shining example of how things should be done. Our community can accept any and all with open arms, and all are welcome here on Smashboards. Feel free to discuss in the comments, but be sure to keep things clean.
 

Comments

ZexM ZexM I'm so sorry to hear a story like this. It's things like this that made me want to write the article. Yes, Smash is a bit better than other communities but we still have a LONG way to go.
 
Dessa Dessa No matter how much things have grown, I have a hard time NOT being hyper vigilant when I go out in general. Events are no different than the streets other than how quickly I can get help. It's a horrible mindset to have, in my opinion, but I can't help it. It's so reflexive now.... I hate it. But I still play.

LiteralGrill LiteralGrill I'm glad you wrote this article. Like I said before: it starts a dialogue and helps educate as well as alleviate. I've told the story to other people in confidence, but this is the first time I've ever told it to a group. Let alone a mass forum. But it feels good to get it out there. I meant what I said before when I said this was inspirational. It makes me want to get out there and play harder now more than ever. I don't have to pine to be "one of the girls" who also get dismissed. There is support out there for people like me, even an entire sub community. I don't want to segregate, but it's a comfort to know that there are people out there who know where I'm coming from.
 
Nyani also added, "A lot of people fail to realize is, especially for trans people early in transition, or those of a lower level of passing, the threat of violence can be very real."

Like, it's amazing how much that quote has been skipped over in this discussion. Just saying.
Oh yeah, totally. I do not "pass", if I showed up to a tournament in a dress and makeup people would think I'm a crossdresser, and given how aggressive some people are and that violence does happen its a really terrifying thought that has prevented me from doing things in a way that makes me happy and instead having to pretend i'm male.
 
Krubby Krubby Been there. It's terrifying and it really sucks to have to put on that front like everything is ok. Having to prove you can hang before you even start a match.
 
the average super smash bros players should never be allowed to tell others w/ genuine oppression to "grow thicker skin" when I have seen people at each others' throats over opinions on fox

although I may be biased from the PM side of things, as there is no thinner-skinned person on earth than a PM player mid-development trying to make sure the top tier character they play isn't changed
 
Honestly the fact that "Don't be a ******bag" is seen as liberal/SJW thing is just sad.

Wow, gaming culture can be so toxic. Which is ironic since gamers like to think themselves as being above bullying because they were made fun of.



Then you, like him/her, missed the point.

This wasn't made so that women can win tournaments.

This was made so that women who love playing Smash can get together and play the game without the fear of being harassed, not taken seriously, etc.

And frankly, nowhere in the article does it imply that women are naturally inferior in Smash then men. So I don't know where the hell the dissenters are pulling that from.
So what you're saying is this girls only side tournament has "nothing to do with skill"? So people bully them no matter how high they place? Has that been an issue in an ACTUAL TOURNAMENT? EVEN NOW!?

Even after there is CONCRETE PROOF that girls placed high in tournaments beating several men?
 
So what you're saying is this girls only side tournament has "nothing to do with skill"? So people bully them no matter how high they place? Has that been an issue in an ACTUAL TOURNAMENT? EVEN NOW!?

Even after there is CONCRETE PROOF that girls placed high in tournaments beating several men?
No, it doesn't have anything to do with skill, it's about making a more comfortable environment for women to compete and have fun. It's not saying women can't compete with men as some players tend to enter both.

And yes, people bully them no matter how high they place, did you not read the article or any of the comments? This post is literally on the same page.

Just learn to read before spewing your opinion
 
So what you're saying is this girls only side tournament has "nothing to do with skill"? So people bully them no matter how high they place? Has that been an issue in an ACTUAL TOURNAMENT? EVEN NOW!?

Even after there is CONCRETE PROOF that girls placed high in tournaments beating several men?
You could always just listen to women when they say they're being harassed instead of getting mad about it. It's just an idea.
 
So what you're saying is this girls only side tournament has "nothing to do with skill"? So people bully them no matter how high they place? Has that been an issue in an ACTUAL TOURNAMENT? EVEN NOW!?

Even after there is CONCRETE PROOF that girls placed high in tournaments beating several men?
Okay. Now you're just missing the point on purpose.

Women only tournaments don't exist because women think they won't win an "actual" one.

They exist so that women won't have to worry about being harassed by dudes who failed to heed Bayonetta's "talk to your mother" advice.

And yes this is has actually happen. From immature **** jokes to actual assault. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen

Also way to devalue this by calling this a "side tournament"
 
You could always just listen to women when they say they're being harassed instead of getting mad about it. It's just an idea.
I was never mad about it.

I was NEVER aware of any of these issues. I read the article.

Now i understand why they have a separate girls only side event. so people who fear getting harrased by people but want to participate in a tournament.

at least now i see 2 sides of this. i guess i was mistaking this as further encouraging sexism though.
 
I was never mad about it.

I was NEVER aware of any of these issues. I read the article.

Now i understand why they have a separate girls only side event. so people who fear getting harrased by people but want to participate in a tournament.

at least now i see 2 sides of this. i guess i was mistaking this as further encouraging sexism though.
Okay I just wanna take a moment here to say thank you for this because even tho people put you under fire for your comment which was ignorant, instead of just getting mad and saying how wrong everyone is you went and educated yourself and then came back and that's so much more than most people do and everyone would get along hunky dory if more people acted like you so from the bottom of my heart i say thank you. If we could just have everyone have the maturity you showed things would be sooooo much better why do so many people have to be such children about stuff they don't understand ;-;
 
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I was never mad about it.

I was NEVER aware of any of these issues. I read the article.

Now i understand why they have a separate girls only side event. so people who fear getting harrased by people but want to participate in a tournament.

at least now i see 2 sides of this. i guess i was mistaking this as further encouraging sexism though.
It's ok. There is a big difference from not knowing and not caring. I appreciate your honesty. Like I said, this sort of thing is meant to START a dialogue. It is quite obvious that not everyone is educated on the subject that needs to be talked about. I'm glad that you've joined this conversation to encourage progress.

I do, however, have to agree with you that segregation, while helping alleviate stress, dose not solve the problem. It doesn't perpetuate or encourage it though, but it does put a certain spot light on a specific group of people. No, these measures wouldn't have to be taken if there wasn't a problem in the first place, but it doesn't highlight an issue either. For the sake of simplicity I'm basically saying that the boys are not missing out on the girls not playing with them as they have been playing just fine on their own before any of this. So segregation is only irritating and points a seeming minority in their majority, passive-aggressively of course. "You can't play nice? Then we won't play with you at all" The message is very clear in a general way, but the underline issue is missing in translation. Women and trangendered players do not like to be targeted for harassment, and I'm sure "the boys" don't like to be thought of as misogynistic and insensitive. I'm sure it hurts them to know that we are still talking about how acceptance, tolerance and good sportsmanship is not appreciated over all genders in the community and that "they" are the ones causing the issue, whoever "they" are. Long story short, we all need to learn to play nice together. I only wanted to be acknowledged for my skill, not my gender, gender identity or sexual orientation. I'm sure they feel the same over all. I JUST WANT TO SMASH, DAMNIT!

(sorry for all these TLDR posts.....)
 
You could always just listen to women when they say they're being harassed instead of getting mad about it. It's just an idea.
Just going to ignore the possibility of women misinterpreting something innocent? Or a joke that went over badly? Or lying for attention? There's a reason every first-world country has a justice system that presumes the innocence of the accused.

Women are human too. Humans make mistakes. Some humans just suck. Not having dangly bits between their legs doesn't somehow make women immune to the same character flaws as the other 50% of the population.

So please **** off with your "Listen and Believe" bull****.
 
Just going to ignore the possibility of women misinterpreting something innocent? Or a joke that went over badly? Or lying for attention? There's a reason every first-world country has a justice system that presumes the innocence of the accused.

Women are human too. Humans make mistakes. Some humans just suck. Not having dangly bits between their legs doesn't somehow make women immune to the same character flaws as the other 50% of the population.

So please **** off with your "Listen and Believe" bull****.
The typical "It's just a joke" excuse. Simply fascinating.

Well I guess it was just a matter of time a post like this was made.
 
The typical "It's just a joke" excuse. Simply fascinating.

Well I guess it was just a matter of time a post like this was made.
my favorite part is the thinly veiled transphobia in saying that women dont "have dangly bits between their legs"
 
Just going to ignore the possibility of women misinterpreting something innocent? Or a joke that went over badly? Or lying for attention? There's a reason every first-world country has a justice system that presumes the innocence of the accused.

Women are human too. Humans make mistakes. Some humans just suck. Not having dangly bits between their legs doesn't somehow make women immune to the same character flaws as the other 50% of the population.

So please **** off with your "Listen and Believe" bull****.
I have dangly bits. Used to be a dude. I remember what that was like, and how hard it was. Then I transitioned, and carried over all my same character flaws but got treated like a woman instead. You have no ****ing clue.

I mained "boy" for years. I know how that **** works. You're playing top tier and begging Sakurai not to give you a much deserved nerf.

We have here a room full o goddamn people who know firsthand how people react differently to the gender they percieve.

You haven't got a clue, child. And you need to go hit the lab becayse you're waaaaaaaay outta your league here.
 
I have dangly bits. Used to be a dude. I remember what that was like, and how hard it was. Then I transitioned, and carried over all my same character flaws but got treated like a woman instead. You have no ****ing clue.

I mained "boy" for years. I know how that **** works. You're playing top tier and begging Sakurai not to give you a much deserved nerf.

We have here a room full o goddamn people who know firsthand how people react differently to the gender they percieve.

You haven't got a clue, child. And you need to go hit the lab becayse you're waaaaaaaay outta your league here.
I hope that the next Election Balance Patch nerfs wealthy white cis males, the "not all men" to "it's your fault for overreacting" is so free and overpowered.
 
I have dangly bits. Used to be a dude. I remember what that was like, and how hard it was. Then I transitioned, and carried over all my same character flaws but got treated like a woman instead. You have no ****ing clue.

I mained "boy" for years. I know how that **** works. You're playing top tier and begging Sakurai not to give you a much deserved nerf.

We have here a room full o goddamn people who know firsthand how people react differently to the gender they percieve.

You haven't got a clue, child. And you need to go hit the lab becayse you're waaaaaaaay outta your league here.
It's not even like Sakurai has to nerf "Boy". Just buff everyone else (no I don't just mean "girls") so they're on equal footing.

Can't wait till I don't have to main "Boy" anymore, then I'll be able to have more fun with the game.
 
It's not even like Sakurai has to nerf "Boy". Just buff everyone else (no I don't just mean "girls") so they're on equal footing.

Can't wait till I don't have to main "Boy" anymore, then I'll be able to have more fun with the game.
That DLC is a bit costly tho.
 
D
Really happy to see a surprisingly low amount of people apposing female Smashers and the concept of transgender identity, but...

A lot of the people who are fine with those are going a bit far...

People on the other side of the argument are just getting infracted or beat down, regardless of how poorly- or well-constructed their argument is. It really doesn't help us move forward when you just shut out the ignorant populous instead of trying to educate it...

Also, I'm going to host a men's only Smash tourney and see how that goes...
 
D
SJW don't want equal rights, but they want people with coloured skin, women and LGBT to get all rights where the rest gets none. [...] I would treat a white straight guy the same as a black lesbian, does that make me an SJW?
That's not how advocating for Social Justice works. That's like saying feminism is about oppressing males... Yes, some people like that do speak in the name of Social Justice or being a Social Justice Warrior, but speaking in the name of something doesn't mean you define what it is. Adding further insult to SJWs isn't helping either, as it just makes the term sounds worse than people have already made it sound.

Who knows, maybe the term "SJW" just HAS to be an insult now. God knows how much I love the fact that I can't say "gay" anymore without it inherently sounding negative...
 
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Really happy to see a surprisingly low amount of people apposing female Smashers and the concept of transgender identity, but...

A lot of the people who are fine with those are going a bit far...

People on the other side of the argument are just getting infracted or beat down, regardless of how poorly- or well-constructed their argument is. It really doesn't help us move forward when you just shut out the ignorant populous instead of trying to educate it...

Also, I'm going to host a men's only Smash tourney and see how that goes...
As I, and many others have said before, the people getting infractions are those who leaves posts that are mainly inflammatory towards, typically with little substance. I'll admit that perhaps the responses to the more well-constructed ones may be harsh, but this is a topic people care deeply about, so there's going to be multiple people combating it. Besides, we are educating them, they're simply not willing to learn. There's posts explaining the the trouble some have gone through, but some people still dismiss it as not being a problem at all.

I don't see why you'd need to host a men's only Smash tourney, they're primarily men anyways so I doubt it'd make much difference aside from further marginalization of other groups. Also the fact that you're even humoring the idea tells me you don't understand the purpose of Smash Sisters.

Who knows, maybe the term "SJW" just HAS to be an insult now. God knows how much I love the fact that I can't say "gay" anymore without it inherently sounding negative...
Maybe it sounds negative because you're using it negatively?

Describing someone as gay, as in homosexual, isn't negative. You're just describing their sexual orientation. Claiming something or someone as gay, as in "this/they sucks", is negative.
 
D
Also, I'm going to host a men's only Smash tourney and see how that goes...
I say a men's only tourney because of how odd the perspective makes it sound to some. I'm incredibly weirded out by the thought that people think a women's only tourney will help all the harassment problems. I'm also, quite frankly, insulted by the fact that people perceive the male Smash players to be insensitive enough to WARRANT a girl-only event that will, apparently, stop harassment or alienation. Either gender can be just as ****ty toward girls, boys, gays, and cis/transgendereds. I also know, for a fact, that at least a few of my female friends would probably prefer to go to a tourney that allows either/any gender to one that restricts it to just one gender (especially to girls, in a few cases and for a few reasons based on their experiences). I think a better solution would be to make sure that issues like harassment and violence are taken more seriously in ALL Smash tournaments (I understand that doing this isn't DIRECTLY in our power, but spreading a bad name can go a LONG way in this community, if we actually felt like publicly outing tourneys that tolerate behavior like that. [Author's comment: How many of you remember Fortune's reaction to the pausing game/controller plug situation, still, even though it was tourney legal?]). ZexM's story of violence and harassment, for one, seriously wants to make me kill something, and I'd like to think we have the power to stop **** like that for good in our community. I'd also like to think that girls can get along with other girls perfectly to make grouping them together solve problems like this, but there's plenty of people out there that know how can go sometimes...

In closing,
You can host women's only tourneys all you want, I just want to make sure you know that it isn't the best solution for a lot of these problems, and that I hope you can see how impractical it sounds, as a fix, when I say the same thing about one for men. I mean no disrespect toward women who prefer hanging out with their own gender, as they could very well feel more comfortable with it, I just, again (and finally), want to say that it won't solve everything in this web of problems.
 
D
Maybe it sounds negative because you're using it negatively?

Describing someone as gay, as in homosexual, isn't negative. You're just describing their sexual orientation. Claiming something or someone as gay, as in "this/they sucks", is negative.
I have never, and I mean NEVER used the word "gay" as an excuse to avoid learning how to use a thesaurus when I mean to say something like "stupid" or "wretched". I'm saying that whenever I legitimately use the word now, it sounds negative because of how many people DO use it in that way.

I don't want people that actually find and appose Social Injustice to have to deal with the same thing.

I don't see why you'd need to host a men's only Smash tourney, they're primarily men anyways so I doubt it'd make much difference aside from further marginalization of other groups. Also the fact that you're even humoring the idea tells me you don't understand the purpose of Smash Sisters.
I explained my reasoning for bringing up a tourney limited to one gender (not like I'm the only one). I suggest your read that for better perspective. Also, maybe women irrationally make me uncomfortable. What then? Seriously though, I get what you're saying (and I definitely understand the importance of Smash Sisters to many), though I do find it interesting that the idea of a male-only Smash tourney is getting shot down this quickly...
 
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my favorite part is the thinly veiled transphobia in saying that women dont "have dangly bits between their legs"

But this portion of the conversation was dealing, presumably, with cis women having side events. Yes, trans women are allowed because they are women too but they are a subset of this group having side events.

Basically it goes like this:

1. Women are having side events at tournaments for this specific set of reasons.
2. Trans women are women too so they shouldn't feel bad about coming over to join us.


So there are two things going on, right? The dangly bit was in reply to a reply about someone specifically talking about the first thing. You can definitely say hey hold on, some women have dangly bits because this is the definition of women. You could call it insensitive and not fully inclusive. Is it fully transphobic, though? Legitimately asking. And I mean beyond a "failing to acknowledge is inherently transphobic" way. Sometimes failing to acknowledge is an error made when discussing a larger group of women.
 
D
The metaphor I just likened it to was this:
If we hosted a large-scale, lower mid-tier only, Brawl tourney (note: I bring up specific tiers in this comparison due to their varying popularity in use, not to either gender demographic's inherent skill level at Smash), it would be a breath of fresh air to see when compared to the current Brawl scene, but it certainly wouldn't stop every other Brawl tourney from having top 8 filled with top-tiers that don't give bottom 25 a chance. Now, over on my Top-5 only bracket, things seem pretty close to a normal Brawl tourney, but I'm still preventing a considerable group from participating. The only reason that part isn't as obvious in the bracket filled with MKs, ICs, and Snakes is that they fill almost all the other brackets, too.

The thing I find interesting in this concept was that I flipped which representative group in the metaphor has an obvious restrictive nature without realizing it. Maybe I'm just babbling non-sense at this point, but I hope people can see what I'm trying to say. I just want the girls of Smash to not NEED something like this. Something that I would hope gets accomplished by the girls being less reluctant to come forward and by the community being less reluctant to accept them without resistance rather than being fixed by segregation (or just "separation", if the other word has a bad meaning to you. I'm still going to use it because it's the proper term in every way, MLK-era racism-associated connotation aside) .
 
Really happy to see a surprisingly low amount of people apposing female Smashers and the concept of transgender identity, but...

A lot of the people who are fine with those are going a bit far...

People on the other side of the argument are just getting infracted or beat down, regardless of how poorly- or well-constructed their argument is. It really doesn't help us move forward when you just shut out the ignorant populous instead of trying to educate it...

Also, I'm going to host a men's only Smash tourney and see how that goes...
Although a lot of the stuff you've said in this thread I disagree with, I do agree here to some degree. The people who got infracted were trash who just want to pick on people and deserved it, but some of the people here aren't necessarily bad but I've grown so used to being defensive I do sometimes start to view as anyone not completely on my side as an enemy. It's something I really need to improve on while still not leaving myself vulnerable to people who are just awful. And so I regret that I was like "eww gross" when I read S shadee88 's first post and assumed he was just awful when he then went and read up and came back much more supportive. He was a good person who simply didn't understand what was being discussed but was willing to learn, and I need to try to give people benefit of the doubt more. But still, the moment someone starts using slurs or mocking trans people or something, they're not worth my time and clearly don't want to improve.

Also, the womens' only tournament wasn't to make us more accepted in smash, it was to give us an opportunity to not feel judged by our opponents and have a tourney where we don't feel under pressure due to our gender. If you read through this and around you'll find lots of girls happy with the tournament. Gay pride parades are less about spreading tolerance to non-LGBT people and more about celebrating yourself and feeling happy. If the womens' tournament made a bunch of people happy and didn't hurt anyone, why shouldn't there be one?
 
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But this portion of the conversation was dealing, presumably, with cis women having side events. Yes, trans women are allowed because they are women too but they are a subset of this group having side events.

Basically it goes like this:

1. Women are having side events at tournaments for this specific set of reasons.
2. Trans women are women too so they shouldn't feel bad about coming over to join us.


So there are two things going on, right? The dangly bit was in reply to a reply about someone specifically talking about the first thing. You can definitely say hey hold on, some women have dangly bits because this is the definition of women. You could call it insensitive and not fully inclusive. Is it fully transphobic, though? Legitimately asking. And I mean beyond a "failing to acknowledge is inherently transphobic" way. Sometimes failing to acknowledge is an error made when discussing a larger group of women.
Okay, it's not inherently so, it's more just that this is a thread about transwomen specifically, and given that the person already seems rather abrasive to this whole thing, I feel like that comment was significantly more pointed than just making a generalization for simplicity. Apologies that maybe I blew that out of proportion a bit, but it was at the very least really insensitive given the context of what we're discussing for the most part. So to answer your question on whether it's inherently transphobic, I'd say yes. If they just made a mistake then it would just be insensitive and not hate speech so even if it was still bad, plenty of leniency can be shown but still just be "come on, think for a moment before you post that".
 
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D
EDIT: Weird quoting problem; this is in reply to:
Kurri ★ &
Krubby

While I very much appreciate the amount you're willing to go back on to see what I'm saying (that phrasing makes it sound a bit strong, but anyways), I'd like to remind you that, in some ways I'm playing devil's advocate. Everyone has a motive and people like you (Krubby) were mentioned are really just misguided. That's one of the reasons I feel so strongly about letting everyone speak, whether their message is good or not
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As bad of a time and though as this is to cut short, I need to go. I'll be back in an hour or so to continue, so please stay posted on my thoughts if you want to reply to them~

(Sorry!)
 
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As someone who actually participated in smash sisters I really could not give a **** if someone thinks they have a legitimate point if they think these events are "segregating" or whatever
thanks to those ppl who care more about listening to their own opinions than they do about learning about reality.
Oh, please, this is what can objectively be considered a form of segregation...
 
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As bad of a time and though as this is to cut short, I need to go. I'll be back in an hour or so to continue, so please stay posted on my thoughts if you want to reply to them~
Thank you all for not attempting to destroy me in the mean-time. Anyway, my closing thoughts on the situation are that this entire thread's intent is fine. Great, even. F***ing amazing, seriously. I've thought that from the beginning. What I've LEARNED, however is a bit more concerning to me...

I've agreed with this cause and what it's trying to do, but most of the people I've seen defending it have a... Well, flawed execution/mentality when it comes to the discussion part of things. Despite the fact that almost all my opposition to this has been a devil's advocate-like role that considers the mentality of people opposing Gender Identity, Smash Sisters, etc. that haven't voiced it well themselves, I've been met with repeated claims that I'm "uneducated", "uninformed", or "ignorant".
The one on this subject that really gets me in particular is this:
Maybe it sounds negative because you're using it negatively?
Like, obviously I considered that (and I never use it as an insult). But I'll still get called out for MY usage of the word and I'M the one who's being inconsiderate? I know it's a small example, but I've seen this going on a LOT. I'm very grateful for the people who have continued to listen to me or, especially, have dealt with much more brash users who don't agree with the thread's statement, but, when you consider how many of those people just get infracted, ignored, or bashed, it really starts to seem like the people behind my side of the argument are wielding more entitlement than they can handle... Seriously, you have to either be on their side or choose the nicest language possible to avoid running into a stompfest of "**** your mentality". Our side of the argument has to consider no such thing... At least here they don't. I'm not going to say it's a good thing that we normally have to silence ourselves (not even close), but when we all get together, I at least hoped we could all be a LITTLE more respectful of other ****ing human beings instead of bashing them because the word "segregation" has too mean of a connotation, or because their debate skills aren't adept enough for you to give them a proper response that can correct what they think on topics you feel passionate about...

I'm starting to rant at this point, maybe get a little apathetic toward the cause (at least in this thread), despite how much I try to do for LGBT rights online and in real life normally...

tl;dr: Treat the ignorance with more consideration than stark opposition when you can, I was wrong to ever involve myself with this thread as both sides give me headaches, I can't make a cohesive multi-paragraph post anymore without stumbling over my own words to cover every topic or repeatedly going back to avoid triggering negative responses from people I agree with in intent, I want to go to bed just thinking about it and it's only 4.

I guess I'm just broken now.
 
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ABSOLUTELY! What amazing insight!

Curse them for starting an event to help women feel more comfortable and have fun without the worry of harassment
That's still segregation. Being helpful for a subset of people does not mean it isn't segregation. And, as I've said before, the idea of an all-women tournament is NOT going to help all timid women find a place for themselves. The fact that many attending feel more comfortable is great, but the fact that many are ignoring problems in the Smash community because we think restricting men form certain events helps is flat-out insulting.

Or you could sharpen your tongue and dish out more insults. That's always the better option when enough people agree with you, right?
 
That's still segregation. Being helpful for a subset of people does not mean it isn't segregation. And, as I've said before, the idea of an all-women tournament is NOT going to help all timid women find a place for themselves. The fact that many attending feel more comfortable is great, but the fact that many are ignoring problems in the Smash community because we think restricting men form certain events helps is flat-out insulting.

Or you could sharpen your tongue and dish out more insults. That's always the better option when enough people agree with you, right?
You claim it's not going to help, when people in this very thread along with other articles and posts by other women have expressed how it did help them. If you're still going to claim "Nah, they're wrong", I don't know what to say other than "Yeah, you know what, you're absolutely right!" and go on with my day.
 
Also, perhaps people don't enjoy Devil's advocate because, despite it being put in a "nicer" way, it's still the same schlock we've been responding to for years
 
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