Top-level foxes?

[L33thal]

How do you play against top-level foxes? I was playing Professor Pro in friendlies yesterday, and I couldn't do anything against him. If I approached with SHFFLs, he would automatically shine OoS and wavedash in place. I tried doing my aerials as late as possible but it didn't help. When I tried to be tricky with my spacing to go for grabs and safer shine pressure, I got outspaced hard by perfect platform movement and optimal dash dancing. Lasers felt so slow and I couldn't get one laser grab.

What can Falco do against foxes that have perfect tech skill?

 

[FireTails]

You wanna approach with shfl and then try to use aerials. You could also play defensively and wait for your opponent to mess up.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Better players generally win because of these things. Just be careful, and when you can hit, hit hard.

 

[FE_Hector]

When you wanna approach, SHL until it's not safe. I'm fairly sure that if you do a super late SHFFL dair/nair into instant shine, you can land the shine. If they maintain their shield the whole time, pressure them as hard as you can. Like Sai said, make sure to maximize your combos/punishes off of every hit you get. Watch for patterns and adapt to him. Nobody's perfect

 

[FireTails]

When you wanna approach, SHL until it's not safe. I'm fairly sure that if you do a super late SHFFL dair/nair into instant shine, you can land the shine. If they maintain their shield the whole time, pressure them as hard as you can. Like Sai said, make sure to maximize your combos/punishes off of every hit you get. Watch for patterns and adapt to him. Nobody's perfect

Yeah that's what i kinda said

 

[OninO]

You wanna approach with shfl and then try to use aerials. You could also play defensively and wait for your opponent to mess up.

This is probably the most vague and generic advice I've ever seen on a Falco advice thread.

@ L L33thal I doubt anyone here is really qualified to advise in the theoretical vs. someone of Prof Pro's calibre, it would help if you provided video so at least we can look for stuff to clean up.

 

[GenNyan]

This is probably the most vague and generic advice I've ever seen on a Falco advice thread.

I can top that easy,
-Don't get hit.
-Git gud.


On the more serious side, you can ask him for advice after your matches. People are generally pretty nice about that sort of thing.

 

[OninO]

Also a couple of things to bear in mind, he can't shine OoS between your nair and shine if done properly. If he is shining you after your shine (which is possible for 'perfect' foxes before you can do anything). You can do things like wait a tiny stutter beat, THEN shine when he goes for shine OoS hitting him in jump squat (a very small window and hence the tiny stutter). You can nair then shield and grab him as he wavedashes down.

 

[OninO]

Final thought, Mango says if you're having to come to Fox, as Falco, then you're losing the match up, so I'm guessing you might have more success in a defensive posture.

I was playing a very good German fox recently and one trick he used against me, which I turned back on him and seemed to work equally as well was sometimes advance and shield. The idea being that you're reading them coming in with an aerial and you want to make them hit it high on shield then counterattack with shine OoS. If they aren't jumping as your shield comes up then wavedash back straight away and resume neutral.

 

[AvengerAngel]

I've played few friendlies with Prof before, so I can feel your pain lolol :D

I think we can assume that you're not losing just because you're not playing your character/the MU correctly, but you're just being constantly outplayed by a player that is much better than you. This means that he's faster, more technical and more precise than you. He can easily pick up on your habits and exploit your approaches/defensive tactics, if you're being predictable. I guess he also has a lot more experience than you, so it's easier for him to act and react quickly, while you're being hindered by your inexperience and imperfect tech skills.
This means that even if your neutral game was as good as Prof's, the matches wouldn't be close because when he gets a hit, he can properly follow up and do A LOT of damage, while you're forced to play a "hit and run" game, meaning that you'll need to outplay him at least 3-4 times before you can take a stock.

Except for practicing tech skill and improving both your neutral and punishment game, I'd advise you to carefully watch top level Falcos play against Fox players. This means studying Mango/PeePee/Westballz/Shiz/Chops/Zhu vids and trying to understand why they're doing something at a given moment. This will help you improve your combo game AND understand how to condition your opponents better.

E.g.: "I'm trying to space around my opponent's shield, but if I hesitate before going in he'll retreat safely to a platform. What could I do to counter this?" - If you carefully watch other Falco's play, you'll notice there are various answers to this. An example would be Mango's typical full hop Nair approach on platforms, which is great to counter platform-happy Foxes. If you don't feel confident jumping at them like that, you can study how PP/Zhu are keeping the center of the stage and capitalizing on they're opponents' movement when they come down from the platform. Or watch how Shiz/Chops deal with campy Foxes with their amazing platform-lazer game, etc.

Just remember that you're not playing against a TAS Fox. As good as your opponent might be, he's still an human being, and as such he has exploitable patterns/weaknesses that you should be punishing as harder as you can.

Hope this helps :D