Top 3

[BTmoney]

*read thread pls*

Check Armada's interview from KoC4.

He said what I've been thinking for a while now. With Hungrybox cemented as the 5th best player, with a recent fairly bad loss to Axe and being the most likely to be contested by A-tier players, and Mew2king basically never beating Armada (with recent losses to fiction*, axe, and amsa) and usually losing to PP and Mango is there a new Super-God tier of top players? I think so. Mango, PP, and Armada are much more likely to beat each other than hbox and mew2king are to beat any of them.


I think there is a clear top 5 yes but I also think there is a clear top 3. Although Mango vs M2k can go either way as of late Mango usually wins and performs substantially better than him vs everyone else.


These are just ideas, if you're uninterested in discussing this then that's cool too. I believe everything said above is fact and judging off of the history of each of the players and some uncharacteristic recent dropped sets (no I am not claiming that these players who upset them are better than them or at the same level) from M2k/Hbox I think this is interesting to talk about.

For years it's been a top 5 and now there might be a top-top 3. I think that's super interesting.

Spoiler

If not a top 3 then it is a top 2. PP is the wildcard, if he keeps playing how he has, beating armada in their most recent sets iirc, beating hbox pretty bad as of late (watch their last set) and usually beating m2k then he's definitely in the top 3. Prolonged consistency is what he needs to be cemented in the Super-God tier.

Spoiler

*M2k didn't look like he was playing his best when he lost to fiction but still, he still got junked and their sets are still a little too close when he does beat him

 

[Ringedge]

Or maybe the idea of the gods is diminishing, as all of them have lost to someone outside the top five since the year has started. We are still only half way through the year though, if this trend keeps up I think the whole "gods of melee" thing is going to go away, or at least have less of a base.

 

[CyberZixx]

I feel like it is a healty sign that M2K and Hbox are not untouchable. More hype and variety in events. I think it is a little too early to call yet, but their may be a clear divide between Armada, Mango and PP over M2K hbox.

 

[EPsilon933]

There's even a skill gap between the gods

 

[BTmoney]

Super-God is real

Or maybe the idea of the gods is diminishing, as all of them have lost to someone outside the top five since the year has started. We are still only half way through the year though, if this trend keeps up I think the whole "gods of melee" thing is going to go away, or at least have less of a base.

1. Mango has been dropping sets his entire career but that doesn't mean he's not blatantly way better than 99.9% of the competition. Armada lost to Leffen in a MU he's extremely good at (props to him) that favors Fox and outside of that Armada pretty much destroys everyone helplessly. PP hasn't lost to anyone not in the top 5 iirc in a long time (years?). Who's the last person to steal a set from him not in the top 5 other than Leffen? You can't be a slave to the moment. Even before he got to #1 he was #3/#2 for years.
2. The 5 gods is not a trend, it's been this way for years. Like what, 4+ years now? They've been way better than everyone else for a long time.

It's not about random losses really. It's about consistency, placing, and how they interact with each other.
No one is going to tell you that Amsa is better than Mew2king cause he beat him or Leffen is better than Armada.

1. Mango, randomly loses to M2k, basically never loses to Hbox, like 1000-3 (or 1000-4) vs. PP, even vs Armada
2. Armada, "bad" loss to Leffen (#6 ~ #7). Slight career edge vs PP iirc, even vs Mango, destroys m2k, hasn't lost to hbox in 2(+?) years and it doesn't look like that's changing as of right now
3. PP, beaten every top player recently. Most recently he lost to Mango and M2k (and Leffen). He normally beats mew2king, him vs hbox is sort of even but lately he's been running away with their set. He's one of the first few people to track the Armada barrier. Outside of that I can't name a player outside of Leffen who has beaten him or even come extremely close outside of the top 5
4. Mew2king, does not have an edge vs. any of the players above him. Especially not vs. Armada and PP. Recently got over Hobx. Recent losses to axe, fiction, amsa
5. Hbox, no edge vs. any of the players above, recent loss to axe and the most likely to drop sets (other than mango because that's just how he is)

Armada really is the only person on this list that is "unbeatable" vs. not top 5 but I'd argue he's still slightly worse than Mango. It's not about being untouchable, it's just about winning sets, tournaments, and matches that matter. Mango will lose to anyone in winners (pewpewu, westballz, mew2king, pp, hax, wobbles, armada, KAGE, hell didn't he lose to carroll?) then win the tournament lol

 

[-ACE-]

Good lord.

Just make a separate tier for every player at this point.

It's like so many smashers just can't live without some kind of magical hierarchy of "who is better than who" in their mind. Watch M2K destroy EVO completely (even though I think PP will) and everyone will totally denounce this 3 person tier. ONE tournament, ONE sentence mentioned by Armada, and the "list of gods" has to change. lmao

Ban?

 

[BTmoney]

Good lord.

Just make a separate tier for every player at this point.

It's like so many smashers just can't live without some kind of magical hierarchy of "who is better than who" in their mind. Watch M2K destroy EVO completely (even though I think PP will) and everyone will totally denounce this 3 person tier. ONE tournament, ONE sentence mentioned by Armada, and the "list of gods" has to change. lmao

Ban?

relax dude you're missing the point completely lmao,

it's just a description of what is already going on. Idk who you have been talking to that is so obsessed and NEEDS the notion of a big 5 or big 3. They created it and we, the community, gave it a name and are just talking about it. I can't speak for anyone else but I don't care if this is true. I'm not gonna lose sleep if M2k or Hbox wins Evo. I'm just talking about what I'm seeing and what has been pretty clearly going on. You're like making the anti-tierlist argument people make when people talk about tier lists, maybe they just want to talk about tier lists because they're real and interesting to talk about.

think about it yourself and form an opinion/have a discussion and leave it at that. Idk maybe you're used to all the knee jerk reactions on the boards but this is not one of them lol, I'm not a stream monster idiot who never plays the game or something like that or someone who hasn't watched pretty much every big tournament in the last 3-4 years.

I am not willing something into existence. I just decided to put my thoughts on what's been going on down so people can think about it if they want to.

 

[Max?]

Who the **** cares lol? Instead of putting the good players into arbitrary tiers, we should all be out there playing and practicing to beat them.

 

[-ACE-]

Yes and I'm saying it's a completely unnecessary description of what's going on.

I mean you call PP a wildcard because he didn't get first at mlg basically.

m2k had hardly any sleep at all for KoC4 and didn't play well.

Everyone's opinion will change once evo is over and the whole process repeats itself. People repeatedly have huge opinions and then put their foot in their mouth the very next major tournament.

I've just seen tons of threads like this and after a while they get old. This is basically a "who are the best players" thread, but with a "hey look, I grouped them this way" aspect. lol. They used to just delete these back in the day.

 

[BTmoney]

Yes and I'm saying it's a completely unnecessary description of what's going on.

I mean you call PP a wildcard because he didn't get first at mlg basically.

m2k had hardly any sleep at all for KoC4 and didn't play well.

Everyone's opinion will change once evo is over and the whole process repeats itself. People repeatedly have huge opinions and then put their foot in their mouth the very next major tournament.

I've just seen tons of threads like this and after a while they get old. This is basically a "who are the best players" thread, but with a "hey look, I grouped them this way" aspect. lol. They used to just delete these back in the day.

Honestly you're right on two accounts.

1. I forgot that we can't have good conversations on the forums usually, that's not a shot at you. People just tend to misunderstand each other then threads go to ****. People don't communicate well without faces and gestures especially since no one has any credibility on the boards and you have to stop people from spreading stupid ideas.

2. Because you're speaking about the community as a whole, I agree everyone has knee-jerk reactions.

But to me Mango and Armada have always been #1 and #2 for the last few years whenever they are dedicating themselves to it. They've risen and fallen of course but it never really changed my view on them. I called PP a wildcard because like you know, I know that it takes more than one breakout performance. PP obviously is amazing and might be my favorite player but getting to the top once doesn't quite guarantee you Mango/Armada level. I think that's fair because they've been at the top longer.

I know M2k is amazing you don't need to convince me. I'm just making the case for people who don't know. Those ideas were just bullet points. But he obviously hasn't been Mango/Armada/PP level lately I'm talking about the last 2+ years not just one tournament he didn't get any sleep before at while using a new controller. You guys that have been around have probably seen 1000 threads with people making stupid claims and OMG ___ is the new best player but that is not what I'm doing. You see 2013 and you assume that the poster has no idea what they're talking about or any perspective (which normally is the case) but I'm only basing this off of what's been going on in the last 4 years or so. Like I'm not gonna use a sample size of 1 and say Westballz is really even that close to Top 5 level just because he 3-0'd mango. That was not that significant. We all see the tournaments with the same eyes and I've actually been playing this game for going on 3 years so there's that. This is all thought out and I just wanted to have a real discussion.


If you don't wanna talk about this, anyone, you don't have to man. I still love you, this is a description/an idea. Not this super controversial bold statement. I think it's very unhealthy to the community to discourage discussion and try to disqualify/qualify people with join dates rather than looking at the logic behind what they are saying because you really don't know who is behind the other keyboard. I also don't see anything wrong with what I said, maybe some people view it as extrapolation but it's not. It's just a summary. I'll write a more detailed OP if that'll make this thread go better. Have I said anything wrong?

 

[strawhats]

I wouldn't say that armada destroys m2k...I'd say he outclutches m2k when they are both playing their best (usually beating him 3-2, in the majority of their sets)...jason clearly played like DONKEY/HORSE **** all day yesterday. (In fact the last 2 weekends m2k has looked rather bad by his standards). However, he has taken sets from every member of the top 4/5 over the last 10 months(if you wanna include leffen in that mix to make it a sinister six). Beating PP recently, beating hbox 3 out of the last 5 sets they've played going basically even with mango and finally taking a set off of armada. The only players I feel that m2k has a mental block against are PP and Armada. If you remember there was a period about 6/7 months ago where m2k looked untouchable by everyone save maybe armada (who no one knew what to expect from since he had been retired and was rumored to be coming out that retirement). He had won like 4/5 major regional tournaments in a row leading up to Apex 2014, including TBH3, Pound V.5, Fight Pitt 3, and KoC 3. Not to mention beating mango 2x at Apex 2013, 1x at Apex 2014 (including ridding himself of the demon that has forever been mango's puff...even if it looked rusty), a set off of Mango at Vindication (socal tournament) in GFs, a set from mango at Fight Pitt IV. I will admit though that mango had been taking care of his son and as a result wasn't travelling to every tournament known to mankind, like m2k. Also PP may or may not have been as focused on melee as he was going into Tipped Off vs hbox and Apex 2014 vs priy much everyone. (Last year of school/family/real life johns> which is pretty legitimate imo)
Now with all that being said, I still think that PP is 3rd but not by that large of a margin over m2k...mostly because I feel PP at his best has beaten m2k time and time again (i.e. Pound V, WGF 2012, Zenith 2012, Apex 2013, Apex 2014, SKTAR). The one time I've seen m2k look confident vs an in form PP was at APEX 2013 ( where he lost 3-2)

MaNg0 and Armada definitely 1 and 2 though...their sets have reached a whole new level of HOLY **** Amazing lately.

I can only hope m2k gets himself together (CP'ing as many chars as possible isn't always the answer jason), as I would like for him to win 1 big tournament before Smash 4 comes out...EVO maybe?

 

[BO/\K]

I can only hope m2k gets himself together (CP'ing as many chars as possible isn't always the answer jason), as I would like for him to win 1 big tournament before Smash 4 comes out...EVO maybe?

Especially since it sounds like he's going to pour a lot of himself in Smash 4, meaning his Melee game might not be completely on point once it comes out ;-;

 

[BTmoney]

@ strawhats

I feel you on that. I was pretty shocked when fiction just ran him over at SSS. m2k is such an interesting character because he's much better vs the #1 (mango) than he is vs. Armada or PP or even Hbox (can't quite forget his years of forever losing to hbox yet lol). Yeah I do remember M2k's tear around the BH3 period. In retrospect he's probably just in the midst of an emotional/mental slump. Especially with controller johns because those are real lol.

But I still do stand by the claim that it's sort of like 1-3 can all beat each other without any johning or freak accidents occurring and 4/5 are a little left out. I feel like a Super-God-Top-3 is only going to happen if PP plays as well as he's expected to for another year or maybe takes a dump on Evo but I don't think he will.
1. Mango
2. Armada
3. PP
-
4. M2k he's like 40-60 vs mango but then 10-90 vs. Armada and 35-65 vs PP. Probably 60-40 or 65-35 vs Hbox.
5. Hbox

I really hate seeing m2k lose confidence and just play bad. It's like he doesn't know how good he is sometimes. Really I just think the idea of even more delineation (a noticeable gap within the top 5) is amazing and inconceivable.

 

[AceMan]

If we're making lists of ordering top 5 I gotta put in my 2 cents.
1) PPMD/Dr. PeePee -I think he is the best player because he has great set records against most players as far as I have noticed (even among the other "Gods") and usually dominates Mew2King when they play together, even though he didn't do as good as I thought he would at MLG doesn't mean he's not the best, everyone has their off days.
2) Mango -He has positive records against everyone he has ever played with the exceptions of Armada and Ken (Hasn't played Ken since '07) but I didn't put him above PPMD/Dr. PeePee because he doesn't seem to dominate them as much (very noticeable in Mew2King matchup where it's usually very close.)
3)Armada -Incredible player and makes great choices in-game, he is the only person to have a positive record against Mango in recent years, I would have put him higher but he still seems to be slightly off game due to his hiatus/short term retirement.
4) Mew2King -(What a shame he only ranks here as he's probably my favorite smasher and the only one of the five "Gods" that I've met in person @ Smash Brothers University 2.5) This could only be expected, he is very knowledgable and know's what to do in most situations but the other "Gods" know how to handle him and predict him and here's how I think he matches up with the others: M2K<PPMD/Dr. PeePee, M2K=Mango, M2K<Armada, M2K=HBox (HBox used to have advantage but now M2K is coming back) though M2K is 4th right now in my opinion, it would be no suprise to me if he reclaimed his throne as the best one day due to "The eturn of the King" as he is getting better whenever he plays and is starting to get better against the other "Gods" and he just recently ended Armada's 5 year winning streak over him at SKTAR 3.
5) Hungrybox -I don't think anyone is suprised by this, he performs worse than the other "Gods" at tournaments and he lost to Axe at MLG, HBox only seems to be doing worse and worse at tournaments and I wouldn't be suprised if in the future if he lost his position in the "Gods" tier, speaking of Axe, I think he's the most likely to take that spot along with Hax.

 

[Red Rice]

I feel as though it's not fair to the Mango, Armada, and M2K to put PP at #1 when PP hasn't been to nearly as many tournaments as the previous 3 have. For that reason I say that the list is

1. Mango
2. Armada
3. PP
4. M2K
5. Hbox
5. Leffen