this is a terrible post, you have no clue what you're talking about
not being biased...i hate near, he's a ****in *** LLL
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Toon Link Match-up Video and Critique Thread
- Thread starter ShadowTl
- Start date
not being biased...i hate near, he's a ****in *** LLL
MJG
Smash Hero
whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop
MJG
Smash Hero
we in thereeeeeee
NH Cody
Smash Champion
I like the part where you back up your ridiculous claims with evidence.
KT Kasrani
Smash Champion
this ***** nappy said
he will make him regret givin him that decision..
LMAO LMAO LMAO
napzzz even to this day that still cracks me up
he will make him regret givin him that decision..
LMAO LMAO LMAO
napzzz even to this day that still cracks me up
suck on my e-d!ck *****
thats my ridiculous claim
and KT....you gotta teach em their lesson
Uhh....thanks for the critique I guess? As I said those were just friendlies that I uploaded solely because its been months since I've posted something. The thought was nice, although I really disagree with some of the things you said, lol.
>Everyone posts tourney vids and asks for critique
>No one gets it
>Post friendlies and don't ask
>Get it
-dip-
>Everyone posts tourney vids and asks for critique
>No one gets it
>Post friendlies and don't ask
>Get it
-dip-
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Specifics would help, Near.
and yes I picked your videos somewhat randomly, I clicked on the thread and I thought "hmm I'll watch this one I suppose." I merely assumed that since you put videos in the *video critique thread*, you wanted them to be critiqued.
I just gave my honest thoughts, after all, this is a Toon Link video critique thread. As Kingtoon has been saying for ages, the character is all about camping in practically every matchup. So it is logical that we would advise people on how to camp better. Am I incorrect in saying that due to the nature of our character, we should be focusing on the methods to improve our spacing and camping? If you're offended about the "60% wrong" thing, then alright I see why you wouldn't agree, but if we don't get constructive criticism then how can we improve? If we are comparing our playstyles to the *ideal* Toon Link, then yes, we would be making a number of bad choices that cost us stocks or damage. For instance, instead of running up and nairing which could possibly hit for about 10%, the *ideal* Toon Link would do something along the lines of throwing a boomerang, to stay on the safer side. Let me provide an example.
At about 0:48 in this video, MJG runs up and does a short hop nair. Of course, it is irrational to suggest that Toon Link players must throw projectiles and zair as their only forms of attack. But my identification of the *ideal* Toon Link applies to such cases as some of your videos and MJG's videos because the *ideal* player would avoid approaching when your opponent is in a position to block it and punish.
Basically, the reason why I elaborate about mixup ideas is because most other people would say "camp more" or "don't approach" or some other kind of obvious, useless advice. Since that doesn't really help, I figure that the best way to critique TL players is to explain why what they're doing is wrong; again, when I say wrong, let me clarify, I mean different from what the aforementioned *ideal* player would do. If you have something else in mind, then tell me what you think and I'll listen. I'm curious as to how you expect me to critique other than by saying "camp more" if offering ideas about mixups and camping techniques doesn't help either. This isn't a big issue in my view, I'd just like to see what you, and the other TL players, think about how we can critique effectively due to the nature of the character.
and yes I picked your videos somewhat randomly, I clicked on the thread and I thought "hmm I'll watch this one I suppose." I merely assumed that since you put videos in the *video critique thread*, you wanted them to be critiqued.
I just gave my honest thoughts, after all, this is a Toon Link video critique thread. As Kingtoon has been saying for ages, the character is all about camping in practically every matchup. So it is logical that we would advise people on how to camp better. Am I incorrect in saying that due to the nature of our character, we should be focusing on the methods to improve our spacing and camping? If you're offended about the "60% wrong" thing, then alright I see why you wouldn't agree, but if we don't get constructive criticism then how can we improve? If we are comparing our playstyles to the *ideal* Toon Link, then yes, we would be making a number of bad choices that cost us stocks or damage. For instance, instead of running up and nairing which could possibly hit for about 10%, the *ideal* Toon Link would do something along the lines of throwing a boomerang, to stay on the safer side. Let me provide an example.
At about 0:48 in this video, MJG runs up and does a short hop nair. Of course, it is irrational to suggest that Toon Link players must throw projectiles and zair as their only forms of attack. But my identification of the *ideal* Toon Link applies to such cases as some of your videos and MJG's videos because the *ideal* player would avoid approaching when your opponent is in a position to block it and punish.
Basically, the reason why I elaborate about mixup ideas is because most other people would say "camp more" or "don't approach" or some other kind of obvious, useless advice. Since that doesn't really help, I figure that the best way to critique TL players is to explain why what they're doing is wrong; again, when I say wrong, let me clarify, I mean different from what the aforementioned *ideal* player would do. If you have something else in mind, then tell me what you think and I'll listen. I'm curious as to how you expect me to critique other than by saying "camp more" if offering ideas about mixups and camping techniques doesn't help either. This isn't a big issue in my view, I'd just like to see what you, and the other TL players, think about how we can critique effectively due to the nature of the character.
Re-reading your original post, I guess there isn't anything I could say I "disagree" with, I just sort of skimmed it because I was rather surprised at the random write-up and mis-read a few things, so my bad there.
When people usually post stuff in here and want critique, they generally talk about the vids in the post, list some things they realize they need to work on, then ask for help. When I post "Random friendlies because I haven't uploaded anything in awhile. ,and say nothing else in the post, I kind of expect people to infer that I'm just adding the videos to the archive, and not really looking for advice. Mostly because those vids don't reflect my "tournament playstyle". -shrug-
Those vids are just me testing out stuff and mostly being aggro against characters I'm obviously going to more campy against in serious sets(Snake,Falco, ect.) and are uploaded for entertainment/reviving the channel more than anything. I'm not trying to call you out for your posts or anything, It just came off as rather unnecessary.
When people usually post stuff in here and want critique, they generally talk about the vids in the post, list some things they realize they need to work on, then ask for help. When I post "Random friendlies because I haven't uploaded anything in awhile. ,and say nothing else in the post, I kind of expect people to infer that I'm just adding the videos to the archive, and not really looking for advice. Mostly because those vids don't reflect my "tournament playstyle". -shrug-
Those vids are just me testing out stuff and mostly being aggro against characters I'm obviously going to more campy against in serious sets(Snake,Falco, ect.) and are uploaded for entertainment/reviving the channel more than anything. I'm not trying to call you out for your posts or anything, It just came off as rather unnecessary.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Okay then, I see what you're saying. My hope is that you don't think I'm emanating hatred of you, or disrespect; I'm just trying to emphasize the importance of being careful in matches with bad habits such as dair and doing a certain routine of camping. Jash calls this "the box" and advises that TL players (well, me, specifically, but by implication, all TL players) work hard to avoid falling into certain camping patterns and that they "get outside the box."
I'll ask people if they want some of my thoughts from now on. I've improved infinitely in the last few years in the aspect of camping, so I feel qualified to offer ideas about it. Next time I'll be more concise.
I'll ask people if they want some of my thoughts from now on. I've improved infinitely in the last few years in the aspect of camping, so I feel qualified to offer ideas about it. Next time I'll be more concise.
MJG
Smash Hero
Specifics would help, Near.
and yes I picked your videos somewhat randomly, I clicked on the thread and I thought "hmm I'll watch this one I suppose." I merely assumed that since you put videos in the *video critique thread*, you wanted them to be critiqued.
Thiis thread is actually called the "Toon Link Video, Critique AND Record thread". You can post your videos here for the archive. You can also post your videos here and request for someone to critique said vid, which doesn't happen even when people ask (like near said) and you can also ask someone to record a replay.
At about 0:48 in this video, MJG runs up and does a short hop nair. Of course, it is irrational to suggest that Toon Link players must throw projectiles and zair as their only forms of attack. But my identification of the *ideal* Toon Link applies to such cases as some of your videos and MJG's videos because the *ideal* player would avoid approaching when your opponent is in a position to block it and punish.
I don't mind being used as an example for anything. I actually posted this vid so that I could get a "critique" on it in hopes that someone would help me with this MU (I am getting better @ it thank s to jerm but marth is still my kryptonite) but I hope you aren't implying that I don't camp more than the average TLand that I am not an *ideal*TL/SPOILER]. In regards to what you said about Toon Link players being aggressive, I agree that it doesn't work very often with TL. Being aggressive actually involves being able to read your opponents REALLY well...that is one of the main reasons hyro is/was able to get away with doing just that (that and he is random as hell). Camping is what I have always been best at and its what I do 95% of the time (Except for when im fighting olimar) but I don't always know what to do unfortunately and I don't always do the right thing. I am still trying to learn how to fight marth, ZSS and weird characters like sheik. I will feel fine when I have those 3 MUs down.I am not sure but this is probably due to me being human XD
Responses in bold.
I will be posting some stuff later this week for a "critique"
I will be posting some stuff later this week for a "critique"
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
From now on. Ill just post my vids and random friendlies and dont ask for advice. Maybe then Ill get a critique XD.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Yes and this parallels our earlier discussion of the D3 matchup; if the ideal TL played the ideal D3 then it would probably be an even matchup. But there is no true ideal TL and this is what leads people to believe the (false) assumption that the D3 matchup is in D3's favor. Your wording of the nature of aggressive Toon Links was right on target. Couldn't have said it better myself. It works for Hyro and some others since they have a lot of very fast mixups and crazy but effective move choices.
If we grasp the concept of the "ideal" then we'll realize what we need to do and what time to do it in a match. With this in our minds, when we see a replay and at first think there's nothing wrong, we'll revisit it thinking, would something have worked better here?
The answer will be "yes" the majority of the time. That is what will guide us to fix errors or strange move choices.
Oh you.
We've been over this. I picked it randomly. Let's move on.
MJG
Smash Hero
@quest, it doesn't matter how safe you are play against DDD..he will grab us eventually. It's really hard to not make a mistake. I took atomsk 95%, messed up once and he CGd me across the stage and dealt a ton of damage on ms in no time. I haven't had a problem with any top DDDs besides him. With that being said, TL loses regardless of how "near" perfect we can play at a top level but the MU isn't too bad...talking about the ideal TL is pointless as well since you cant force someone to play the character the correct (ideal) way anyways XD...I'm done talking about this anyways since there will never be 0 mistakes made by any player CONSISTENTLY in the near future...that and I just don't really care. I'll look at your vids soon sant. Gonna start being more active on the boards again.
We out.
We out.
KT Kasrani
Smash Champion
I never make mistakes. Im jus bad
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze0tgePv5I4&feature=channel_video_title vs DDD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV9BHES0wIA&feature=relmfu vs Snake
Please critique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV9BHES0wIA&feature=relmfu vs Snake
Please critique.
MJG
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuORKp8LX7Q vs sheik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2LZwJlLyjU vs fox
I would really appreciate a critique from the sheik vid. I have a slight understanding of what to do and I see some of my errors but any advice/tips would be good (plz and ty). Wouldn't mind a critique from the other vid as well
@sant: I already said what to do for DDD. Ill look @ snake shortly since im not doing anything.
EDIT: FB messages :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2LZwJlLyjU vs fox
I would really appreciate a critique from the sheik vid. I have a slight understanding of what to do and I see some of my errors but any advice/tips would be good (plz and ty). Wouldn't mind a critique from the other vid as well
@sant: I already said what to do for DDD. Ill look @ snake shortly since im not doing anything.
EDIT: FB messages :o
Ic0slay3r
Smash Apprentice
Fox when going for the kill is so predictable. Sadly I don't have the same reaction time MJG has, so I get killed by those smashes :X. Btw is there a reason why most of the time you raise your shield?
MJG
Smash Hero
Just a habit...I got punished for it when fighting an olimar in the summer. I usually don't let my shield get low (except in doubles) so I don't really need to worry about getting shield poked but if I realize that I need to lower my shield, I will.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Hey please critic?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUsVTqetMSE&list=UUmpMHVSyR1S-ltvQnH6TuSA&feature=player_detailpage
This is my friend Ramsey, he has only been playing smash competitively with me for about a month and he has never been to a tourney, he is trying to get better, any and all critic is welcome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUsVTqetMSE&list=UUmpMHVSyR1S-ltvQnH6TuSA&feature=player_detailpage
This is my friend Ramsey, he has only been playing smash competitively with me for about a month and he has never been to a tourney, he is trying to get better, any and all critic is welcome.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Disclaimer: I am randomly picking this video to critique instead of others based on sheer probability, with little to no bias regarding preferential selection.
Ramsey should work on defense. His basic strategy is to run towards his opponent and usmash repeatedly. There may have been a few projectiles here and there, but he did not give much thought to whether or not they would leave him open to be attacked. For example, at 6:48, he pulls a bomb when it leaves him defenseless to be killed. This is one of many instances where he gets hit for throwing projectiles, or attacking in general, when it leaves him open. He not be standing around in one place as often as he does; he should be throwing more projectiles at safer times and should be using zair more as a spacing tool. As I do to all beginners, I advise watching videos of well known Toon Link players to get a sense of how many hitboxes you should be sending out at once, how to space, how to camp safely, and other tactics.
Hope this helps~
Zwei Striker
Smash Apprentice
These are my general corrections:
- Teach him to DI
- Teach him to do momentum cancel (bair then jump for TL)
- He needs to start thespam fight as soon as the anouncer says "go!", not to stand there doing nothing.
- Tell him to pull out a bomb when he takes a stock, so he can take over the spam again asap.
- Teach him to autocancel moves and to quickdraw and short hop double arrow.
- He needs to learn spacing, and to use TL's gtfo moves (utilt/bair) when and opponent that beats you at cqc is all over you.
- He's on a severe lack of invincibomb and jump cancel item toss for the bombs.
- He should stop throwing one proyectile at a time, he must have as many proyectiles out as possible, and keep the flow of them.
- He must learn to retreat with the always safe airdodge> hookshot.
- Tell him to stop spaming smashes, ftlog.
- Teach him to DI
- Teach him to do momentum cancel (bair then jump for TL)
- He needs to start the
- Tell him to pull out a bomb when he takes a stock, so he can take over the spam again asap.
- Teach him to autocancel moves and to quickdraw and short hop double arrow.
- He needs to learn spacing, and to use TL's gtfo moves (utilt/bair) when and opponent that beats you at cqc is all over you.
- He's on a severe lack of invincibomb and jump cancel item toss for the bombs.
- He should stop throwing one proyectile at a time, he must have as many proyectiles out as possible, and keep the flow of them.
- He must learn to retreat with the always safe airdodge> hookshot.
- Tell him to stop spaming smashes, ftlog.
G.i.R.
Smash Rookie
Me vs Moe from MN please critique as i am somewhat new to the competitive scene. this was played on 12/9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLvRdBNypUc&feature=youtu.be (vs. Marth)
These next videos are of my buddy Oustin vs Xeelt: played 12/23/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLvRdBNypUc&feature=youtu.be (Game 1 vs. Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW7jxEKdw78&feature=related (Game 2 vs. Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLvRdBNypUc&feature=youtu.be (vs. Marth)
These next videos are of my buddy Oustin vs Xeelt: played 12/23/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLvRdBNypUc&feature=youtu.be (Game 1 vs. Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW7jxEKdw78&feature=related (Game 2 vs. Falco)
Only watched you vs. Marth...
First of all check the Advanced Technique thread and learn and practice JC throwing and quickdrawing. They are extremely helpful techniques and very easy to do compared to others.
One thing I noticed is you very rarely use zair. It is amazingly useful, especially against Marth since it outranges all of his moves barring shieldbreaker. Learn the proper timing for when to land with zair and how to space with a retreating zair as it is usually unpunishable on block.
Try to camp more. I will admit that camping Marth in particular is tricky because he is fast enough in the air and on the ground to weave through our projectiles with relative ease. It also sucks because he kind of bodies us in close combat, but this is where zair comes in handy because it forces him to stop or get hit. Keep in mind that TL lives and dies by his zair and projectiles. Use them to space. Use them to combo. Use them to keep your opponents out.
If you hit someone with your sword or throw them away from you, unless you're confident that you can get a read on them and hit them again, most of the time you should take this opportunity to create some space between you and your opponent and get some projectiles on screen.
In fact, any time you're not in danger of getting hit for it, you should be throwing out projectiles, because it forces them to deal with a bunch of other hitboxes on screen instead of just you. Use your projectiles to create openings in your opponent's defenses to make your own approaches hard to punish or avoid at all. Watch what they do when they are dealing with your projectiles, learn their habits, and punish them.
Don't try to force kills. Remember that dair you killed the Marth with? Don't make a habit of that. There are very few characters in this game that TL should ever risk dairing offstage, and Marth is absolutely not one of them. Even when someone is in kill percent, don't change your gameplan and rush in for a kill. Just be patient and keep using projectiles and keep spacing your other moves. The key is to stay safe - if you have to camp them and get them to a high enough percent where a stale bair/nair will kill them, then do it. It's better than whiffing something obvious and getting punished hard for it.
When Marth is offstage, zair is a really good option against him. Space it correctly and it will beat his fair every time, and it ruins his recovery. Conversely, when you are offstage against Marth, you need to be very careful. Marth is very good at edge guarding TL. Cover your recovery as best you can with boomerangs and bombs. But it doesn't end there. Even when/if you finally manage to grab the ledge, Marth is pretty good at making sure TL stays there. It's only made worse by the fact that almost all of our get up options from the ledge are terrible. Best thing to do is to stall and throw projectiles from the ledge, looking for an opening to get back on stage.
Overview:
- Keep people out with retreating zair and projectiles (when it is safe to use them)
- Camp more.
- While you're camping, anazlyze your opponent's movements and habits so you can punish your opponent for them later.
- In general, try to stick to a hit-and-run gameplan and don't get frustrated if you're losing.
Probably missed some things, and I know this was a bit of a read, but I hope it helps!
First of all check the Advanced Technique thread and learn and practice JC throwing and quickdrawing. They are extremely helpful techniques and very easy to do compared to others.
One thing I noticed is you very rarely use zair. It is amazingly useful, especially against Marth since it outranges all of his moves barring shieldbreaker. Learn the proper timing for when to land with zair and how to space with a retreating zair as it is usually unpunishable on block.
Try to camp more. I will admit that camping Marth in particular is tricky because he is fast enough in the air and on the ground to weave through our projectiles with relative ease. It also sucks because he kind of bodies us in close combat, but this is where zair comes in handy because it forces him to stop or get hit. Keep in mind that TL lives and dies by his zair and projectiles. Use them to space. Use them to combo. Use them to keep your opponents out.
If you hit someone with your sword or throw them away from you, unless you're confident that you can get a read on them and hit them again, most of the time you should take this opportunity to create some space between you and your opponent and get some projectiles on screen.
In fact, any time you're not in danger of getting hit for it, you should be throwing out projectiles, because it forces them to deal with a bunch of other hitboxes on screen instead of just you. Use your projectiles to create openings in your opponent's defenses to make your own approaches hard to punish or avoid at all. Watch what they do when they are dealing with your projectiles, learn their habits, and punish them.
Don't try to force kills. Remember that dair you killed the Marth with? Don't make a habit of that. There are very few characters in this game that TL should ever risk dairing offstage, and Marth is absolutely not one of them. Even when someone is in kill percent, don't change your gameplan and rush in for a kill. Just be patient and keep using projectiles and keep spacing your other moves. The key is to stay safe - if you have to camp them and get them to a high enough percent where a stale bair/nair will kill them, then do it. It's better than whiffing something obvious and getting punished hard for it.
When Marth is offstage, zair is a really good option against him. Space it correctly and it will beat his fair every time, and it ruins his recovery. Conversely, when you are offstage against Marth, you need to be very careful. Marth is very good at edge guarding TL. Cover your recovery as best you can with boomerangs and bombs. But it doesn't end there. Even when/if you finally manage to grab the ledge, Marth is pretty good at making sure TL stays there. It's only made worse by the fact that almost all of our get up options from the ledge are terrible. Best thing to do is to stall and throw projectiles from the ledge, looking for an opening to get back on stage.
Overview:
- Keep people out with retreating zair and projectiles (when it is safe to use them)
- Camp more.
- While you're camping, anazlyze your opponent's movements and habits so you can punish your opponent for them later.
- In general, try to stick to a hit-and-run gameplan and don't get frustrated if you're losing.
Probably missed some things, and I know this was a bit of a read, but I hope it helps!
G.i.R.
Smash Rookie
thx it'll help alot. to be honest that dair kill was an accident XD i dont remember what i was gonna do but im glad i messed it up XD
one thing to add is, try to remember to shoot your arrows and throw the rang while holding bombs. Get used to zair while holding bombs and practice chaining (dropping and catching bombs with aerial attacks). Basically don't let your bombs handcuff you, or feal rushed to throw them the instant they are pulled, and use more of them
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
This TL seems really good, he goes even w/ TKD and made it to WF in a Mexican Tournament:
Hyuga(TL) vs TKD(Fox) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu4dG0q_GCY&feature=g-all-u&context=G2933e07FAAAAAAAABAA
Hyuga(TL) vs Wonf(Marth) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2tVug4MdOg&feature=related
Hyuga(TL) vs TKD(Fox) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu4dG0q_GCY&feature=g-all-u&context=G2933e07FAAAAAAAABAA
Hyuga(TL) vs Wonf(Marth) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2tVug4MdOg&feature=related
G.i.R.
Smash Rookie
i have a question, if i have more replays, do i add them to my first post, or make a new one with the new videos? i read the thing in the intro and im confused
southpaw
Smash Apprentice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTzKOtLevbo&list=PL05582EF813D9DD0A&index=32&feature=plpp_video
help i am cursed vs this char
help i am cursed vs this char
southpaw
Smash Apprentice
aura spheres >.<. I find it really hard not to get hit at times. I play slow since I don't wanna be in lag and get hit but it happens anyways. I really think playing this slow is the best and only way to fight lucario since his roll range is about the same as our normal medium camp range, and at long distance aura spheres are more dangerous than bombs.
I thought you played well. Just a few mistakes wound up costing you. You might mix in more arrow work to try to keep him from charging the aura. I thought you were at your best when you were slightly more agro with the aerials. Really the match was as close as it gets, if not for the failed recovery, or if the closing seconds of round 1 went differently...but I still think keeping the pressure up with more attacks, hit and run...I dunno I'm no expert
Me vs ESAM (Pikachu / IC's)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxq66LIz_F8&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnBQeSNL0yQ&feature=channel_video_title
Help please this guy is mean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxq66LIz_F8&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnBQeSNL0yQ&feature=channel_video_title
Help please this guy is mean.
i gotta few tips. when fighting against pika just remember bomb beats out grounded jolts ( just how they beat out falco's lasers). they pretty much get u in the door against pika but then again it is ESAM lol. and when he does the qac u can hit him threw is easily since his body stretches like half the stage lol. besides that he did pretty good man keep it up