Too Close for (Dis)Comfort: Characters/Moves That Miss in Point Blank

[Man Li Gi]

Originally this was part of the DK character discussion part, but since there are other characters with this problem (Bowser Jr., Robin, Greninja). Cleaned up the thread. I will soon be uploading videos (red meaning there is a video) highlighting each case:

DK (6 Moves)

Spoiler

Since I focused/and use DK primarily, all this stuff is pertaining to DK. You can bring up your examples of the gaps within other characters. Mind you this is just ripped from my previous thread:

After extensive playing of DK online and with friends, I'm certain that Sakurai deleted hitboxes or simply moved them around (unfavorably) that were extremely close to his hurtboxes. I will soon be uploading videos (red meaning there is a video) highlighting each case\ Here are the moves that whiff and where they whiff:

Jab: A small or ducking or someone who ADed in front of DK, but not touching the fist.

Spoiler

Ftilt: A small or ducking or someone who ADed in front of DK, touching around the shoulder area. This one is absurd as his entire arm should be a hitbox. There's no point of having a long range tilt that also can't hit up close.

Spoiler

Utilt: This one takes a little more finesse to dodge, but it's possible. A low opponent has to be real close and low to DK's shoulder.

Spoiler

Dtilt: Right on DK or right in front of him.

Spoiler

Fsmash: We all know this one, but IT'S WHEN THEY ARE TOUCHING DK or HIS SHOULDER! Sakurai, why?

Giant Punch: Low and in the shoulder of DK.

Spoiler

Uair: This may be me grasping at straws, but the butt hitbox is not there anymore.

Spoiler

I just wanted this thread to exist so people know how Sakurai messed with DK. If there are more, please tell me and I'll add them to the list. If you can provide a video showing this, that would be fine too.

The more and more I play, the more I realize that some characters were lackadaisically put together in this game and how great the DK Brawl hitboxes/damage/speed/power were. *sniffles*

This credit goes to @Lavani explaining exactly why this happens:
Plausibly, but not necessarily. Anything that whiffs against G&W for Z-axis reasons would either whiff against everyone, or whiff because he's thin. But that isn't what The Flat Zone Effect™ is about.

So, using DK's ftilt as an example. Parts of Robin's body are further in the foreground during her idle animation (facing left), and DK's ftilt comes from the background (facing right). As a result, you can get this at certain positions:

On flat stages, you have no Z axis (all characters are 2D, like G&W). DK being flattened means his arm is hitting straight forward, and Robin being flattened means she isn't in the foreground, so you get a clean hit always:

It's also worth noting that, since DK's arm into the background/foreground, ftilt probably keeps more active frames in front of him on flat stages than usual, unless the active frames end before the arm sweep (I'm not well-versed in this character, sorry!

Fsmash's blindspot is clearly intentional though; its hitboxes aren't tied to bones, have no Z-axis displacement, and are all distanced from DK's body noticeably. I think the intent is that the clap does the damage and nothing else.


If you have more to add, please at least provide a video, or explanation, or pic. I'll add it ASAP.

Dr. Mario (1 Move)

Spoiler

Fsmash:

Spoiler

Marth (1 Move)

Spoiler

Fair:

Spoiler

Shulk ( 2 Moves)

Spoiler

Ftilt:

Spoiler

Fsmash:




View attachment 44446

 

[JmacAttack]

Ganon's Warlock Punch misses at extreme point blank, as does Wizard Dropkick and Wizard Foot.

None of his other moves seem affected. Everything else he has will hit even if you're slightly behind him, even Warlock Blade, F-tilt, and Up Smash.

 

[GSM_Dren]

I've had Yoshi's Fsmash miss completely several times at point blank range, it's silly and frustrating. >->

 

[Saturn_]

Ganon's Warlock Punch misses at extreme point blank, as does Wizard Dropkick and Wizard Foot.

None of his other moves seem affected. Everything else he has will hit even if you're slightly behind him, even Warlock Blade and Up Smash.

Wizard's Kick definitely misses when target is very close.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

True pain is knowing that Bowser Jr's Fsmash is never going to work against an opponent who is point-blank next to you, though that's one of his only moves that has any actual killing potential.

It doesn't even reliably break shields, which would have made sense because of his reveal trailer.

smh

 

[JmacAttack]

Wizard's Kick definitely misses when target is very close.

Correct. As I said.

 

[Anomilus]

While not as bad as before, Meta Knight still suffers this issue. Had to roll my eyes during this MK ditto where my opponent and I were literally in each other's faces failing to make contact with several aerial swipes. It's like you want to vary your angles of approach and you just can't.

There's also Wii Fit Trainer's notorious hitboxes and grabbox. How about you stretch those arms WFT!?

 

[RBreadsticks]

ROB has terrible grab range you almost need to be as close as jiggly would to rest to grab. I can't tell you how many times ROBS arms have physically been touching someone but the grab doesn't go through.

 

[Octagon]

Duck Hunt's forward smash doesn't hit the person right in front of them, there has to be some spacing. And omg you don't even know the stress of when you both are at high percentages and you use the most key smash attack but the person is just one step closer to you to not get hit

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

The thread title should read 'Too Close for Discomfort' instead.

Edit: That's better.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Ganon's Warlock Punch misses at extreme point blank, as does Wizard Dropkick and Wizard Foot.

None of his other moves seem affected. Everything else he has will hit even if you're slightly behind him, even Warlock Blade, F-tilt, and Up Smash.

Since I use Ganon a lot myself, I can tell you 3 of his 4 specials (Flame Choke, Wizard Kick, and Warlock Punch) miss point blank. I just want you to be able to show it for those who don't know.

I've had Yoshi's Fsmash miss completely several times at point blank range, it's silly and frustrating. >->

Never seen or heard of that. Please can you bring an example.

True pain is knowing that Bowser Jr's Fsmash is never going to work against an opponent who is point-blank next to you, though that's one of his only moves that has any actual killing potential.

It doesn't even reliably break shields, which would have made sense because of his reveal trailer.

smh

Yo Dat gap has saved me so many times. Again though, may you provide some proof for the random onlookers.

ROB has terrible grab range you almost need to be as close as jiggly would to rest to grab. I can't tell you how many times ROBS arms have physically been touching someone but the grab doesn't go through.

Now you realize the agonizing precision Ganon mains go through. Some just abandon the idea of grabbing unless they're 100% sure they can grab.

Duck Hunt's forward smash doesn't hit the person right in front of them, there has to be some spacing. And omg you don't even know the stress of when you both are at high percentages and you use the most key smash attack but the person is just one step closer to you to not get hit

I do realize that pain. Never have I seen DHD miss, so can you provide some video evidence?

 

[Kofu]

Villager's dash grab (and possibly his standing grab) fails on a target right next to him. I'm on my phone right now so I can't post a video but I will later. I've also seen Palutena's USmash miss point blank but that probably has to do with the target's frame size.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

WFT FTilt and FSmash have blind spots between her body and her arm she puts forward, though this doesnt have to do with Z-axis shenanigans.

Ill upload a video of FTilt glancing on Luigi point-blank later. I don't have this specific replay, but WFTs FSmash has missed Bowser point-blank as well, which really baffles me.

Regadless, FSmash will always miss on shorter characters point-blank.

 

[RBreadsticks]

ROBS rotor arm can also miss while literally touching someone, not sure how it happens exactly seems to only happen after my opponent missed some kind of smash I'll try to get a video of it later but it happens so infrequently

 

[ActionShot]

Zelda's Ftilt and charged down B both have blind spots right in front of her.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Zelda's Ftilt and charged down B both have blind spots right in front of her.

Guys, I want yall to bring some sustenance for your claims. I have seen something like this happen before, but I want others to see an example.
Also, if someone can sticky this as I'm pretty sure ALMOST every character has this trait.
I will be separating them by character as soon as you can provide other characters.....

 

[TriTails]

LM's F-smash whiffs at point blank unless it has been patched.

Haven't finding any for Luigi so far.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Im not sure if this is in other games because this has never happened to me then but peach's golf club misses at point blank even a little bit after point blank it misses.

 

[BJN39]

I'll just chime in on the Zelda blind-spot claims. Ask just about any Zelda player and they'll know what you mean if you ask about point blank Ftilt or Phantom blind spots. They're both very apparent, and the Phantom one is actually rather large. ^^'

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's Up Smash will miss at pointblank for two major reasons: where Falco's facing and character height. If Falco uses it facing towards his opponent, then it's fine on anyone tall, short, fat, or skinny, but if he uses it while facing away, then it's likely going to miss, especially if they're short or crouching like WFT. Falco foot will literally phase through someone at pointblank like that if they're standing.

It might be the case with Yoshi's and Fox's, but it's less apparent since they cover a larger arc than Falco despite the animation and hit effects showing that Falco's Up Smash looks like it covers a 270 degree arc around him; it's more like 240 degrees or even worse...

Samus's Up Smash and Fair are more of how she hits rather than them not having hitboxes. As people know, her Up Smash arcs from her head to the back of her head. That means anyone below that are unaffected and since Samus is tall, it's much worse. Kirby, Pikachu, and maybe even Mega Man can get away scot-free because of how she attacks. Fair is the same case more so of trying to hit grounded, short targets.

The Pits' Up Smashes can whiff at pointblank for some reason. I think shorter characters are more effected since the Pits jump up to attack.

Meta Knight is the biggest offender of this since his sword is already short while DK has longer arms and other characters with dead zones either have one or two attacks with dead zones or have range and speed to compensate for the dead zones. Meta Knight's Ftilt has like half the range that it looks like. It won't miss pointblank, but it'll miss in most cases. I think his Nair has issues too where it shows Meta Knight covering around him, but sometimes the parts of his sword will phase through.

Greninja's Side Smash, Ftilt?, and I believe Fair have issues with one of the axis. I think it's the z-axis.

Not pointblank, but Link's claw on his Clawshot has no hitbox when he grabs. I don't know about his Zair, but his pivot grab might not have this issue for some reason.

As for Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot missing at pointblank, it's the animation like Link, Yoshi?, and the Villager's Dash Attack, and, I think, Bowser's Side Smash where they're in the air for a bit. Ganondorf jumps towards for his flying sidekick meaning there's no hitbox there. It sort of makes sense, but a sour-spot at the beginning could have worked since his entire body probably makes contact with people from transitioning to standing and kicking. Captain Falcon doesn't have this problem since he just sets up and launches like a rocket.

Link's Dash Attack involves a leap which isn't an attack and then the Jump Attack, so he'll jump over stuff - miss - and then hit. Same thing with Villager's Dash Attack and Little Mac's Jolt Haymaker.

Little Mac's Side Smash whiffs at pointblank because he's probably side stepping first before hitting. Watch the animation and you'll see Little Mac sort of turning into before landing a straight, uppercut, or body shot. It's a neat thing that boxers do too, but since this is a 2.5D game, it's not going to matter much unlike what Steve Fox can do in Tekken. Bob and weave, bob and weave. This would be the same case for Ike who steps forward before swinging Ragnell up.

So, for me, Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot, Ike, Link, Yoshi?, the Villager's Dash Attacks; Little Mac's Jolt Haymaker and Side Smash, Samus's Up Smash and Fair; and Bowser's? Side Smash are more of how they're animated rather than actually missing out right. Everything else is more of an issue of the animation not having a hitbox for some reason.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Falco's Up Smash will miss at pointblank for two major reasons: where Falco's facing and character height. If Falco uses it facing towards his opponent, then it's fine on anyone tall, short, fat, or skinny, but if he uses it while facing away, then it's likely going to miss, especially if they're short or crouching like WFT. Falco foot will literally phase through someone at pointblank like that if they're standing.

It might be the case with Yoshi's and Fox's, but it's less apparent since they cover a larger arc than Falco despite the animation and hit effects showing that Falco's Up Smash looks like it covers a 270 degree arc around him; it's more like 240 degrees or even worse...

Samus's Up Smash and Fair are more of how she hits rather than them not having hitboxes. As people know, her Up Smash arcs from her head to the back of her head. That means anyone below that are unaffected and since Samus is tall, it's much worse. Kirby, Pikachu, and maybe even Mega Man can get away scot-free because of how she attacks. Fair is the same case more so of trying to hit grounded, short targets.

The Pits' Up Smashes can whiff at pointblank for some reason. I think shorter characters are more effected since the Pits jump up to attack.

Meta Knight is the biggest offender of this since his sword is already short while DK has longer arms and other characters with dead zones either have one or two attacks with dead zones or have range and speed to compensate for the dead zones. Meta Knight's Ftilt has like half the range that it looks like. It won't miss pointblank, but it'll miss in most cases. I think his Nair has issues too where it shows Meta Knight covering around him, but sometimes the parts of his sword will phase through.

Greninja's Side Smash, Ftilt?, and I believe Fair have issues with one of the axis. I think it's the z-axis.

Not pointblank, but Link's claw on his Clawshot has no hitbox when he grabs. I don't know about his Zair, but his pivot grab might not have this issue for some reason.

As for Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot missing at pointblank, it's the animation like Link, Yoshi?, and the Villager's Dash Attack, and, I think, Bowser's Side Smash where they're in the air for a bit. Ganondorf jumps towards for his flying sidekick meaning there's no hitbox there. It sort of makes sense, but a sour-spot at the beginning could have worked since his entire body probably makes contact with people from transitioning to standing and kicking. Captain Falcon doesn't have this problem since he just sets up and launches like a rocket.

Link's Dash Attack involves a leap which isn't an attack and then the Jump Attack, so he'll jump over stuff - miss - and then hit. Same thing with Villager's Dash Attack and Little Mac's Jolt Haymaker.

Little Mac's Side Smash whiffs at pointblank because he's probably side stepping first before hitting. Watch the animation and you'll see Little Mac sort of turning into before landing a straight, uppercut, or body shot. It's a neat thing that boxers do too, but since this is a 2.5D game, it's not going to matter much unlike what Steve Fox can do in Tekken. Bob and weave, bob and weave. This would be the same case for Ike who steps forward before swinging Ragnell up.

So, for me, Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot, Ike, Link, Yoshi?, the Villager's Dash Attacks; Little Mac's Jolt Haymaker and Side Smash, Samus's Up Smash and Fair; and Bowser's? Side Smash are more of how they're animated rather than actually missing out right. Everything else is more of an issue of the animation not having a hitbox for some reason.

Thank you for your input. I couldn't have said it better for the characters with wonky F smashes. Anyway.... can someone sticky this? We need some evidence with a pic at least like Lavani provided too. I want to become as evident as possible so casuals, and pros realize this problem. If possible, make Nintendo know about this problem.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Ness's Fsmash whiffs against Robin point-blank, during most of his idle animation. It can still hit, but only if Robin has stood still long enough. There's a point where he turns his body to look at his tome.

I've tried it against numerous other "tall and skinny" characters, but he appears to be the only one it whiffs against.

 

[roymustang1990-]

I hate how the back end of Marth's fair whiffs.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eqSbMsLxCWM

Edit : video has been made public.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I hate how the back end of Marth's fair whiffs.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eqSbMsLxCWM

For me, the video appeared as private. Please make it public.

Edit: @ roymustang1990-
Sorry if I'm asking too much, but could you slow it down? I know I could do that myself if my PC actually wanted to work, but it doesn't (I use my phone all day)....thanks. And can you possibly compare it to when Kirby is standing up? It's just that I've never experienced/heard/seen of this and I WANT MORE!!!!!

 

[Man Li Gi]

BUMP:
Is there no videos of you hugs in struggle to land a hitbox?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't have a video to substantiate it but I can confirm that Yoshi's fsmash whiffs at point blank at least against slim chracters like WFT.

 

[Ffamran]

BUMP:
Is there no videos of you hugs in struggle to land a hitbox?

Don't bump or double post. If you need to add info, just edit your post. Just let some one curious post to be safe from infractions.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Added Giant Punch vid. Please put some images or vids.

 

[doyouknowbobby]

I will try and get a video later, but trying to throw Bonus Fruit as Pac-Man, opponent cannot be right next to you or you will throw it past him.

 

[YoPoYo9100]

Pac Mans grab, Forward Smash, and Down Smash all miss most of the narrow profile cast members if to close.

 

[Piford]

Shulk's FSmash can miss if the opponent is right next to you.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser's default side B, the flying slam, is an extremely short range command grab with one active frame. But there are bizarre moments where the opponent is not even crouching or doing anything noteworthy where the move whiffs. This video provides good evidence. Pikachu was in shield, which is pretty much a neutral standing position.

In case you didn't see it, it happens precisely at the 8:03 mark. It was so subtle that neither the pikachu player nor commentators noticed.

It stinks because Flying Slam is already a bugged move since Bowsercide no longer works depending on the stage. A bugged hitbox makes it even riskier to begin with. I want to score early kills on Battlefield like the designers intended, but it just won't work!

 

[Raijinken]

This video pretty much sums it up.

Of course, that's trying to hit a tiny crouching hitbox. But it gets the point across - hitboxes are weird sometimes.

 

[Man Li Gi]

This video pretty much sums it up.

Of course, that's trying to hit a tiny crouching hitbox. But it gets the point across - hitboxes are weird sometimes.

I'm meaning in neutral. Crouching is excluded simply because we know what moves miss.

 

[Nammy12]

Shulk's ftilt misses on Sheik but its at really specific distances and only if Sheik isn't moving so it shouldn't really be happening.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Added Shulk Ftilt and Dr. Mario Fsmash.

 

[Piford]

Here's footage of Shulk's F-Smash missing

 

[Man Li Gi]

Here's footage of Shulk's F-Smash missing

I had to watch that many times to see if in fact the move missed when the active frames in play. Seems like a legit miss though.

 

[UnownLegend]

I'll just chime in on the Zelda blind-spot claims. Ask just about any Zelda player and they'll know what you mean if you ask about point blank Ftilt or Phantom blind spots. They're both very apparent, and the Phantom one is actually rather large. ^^'

was coming in to chime in about this exactly haha

 

[ShortcutButton]

When right up in the face, Pit's nair either misses entirely or sour-spots for an astonishing 0%.