Toad/Toadette debate

[OysterMeister]

This post is about Toad and Toadette as an Ice Climbers type character for Brawl. I know popular opinion is against me on this one, but I figured the idea had its merits, so I'm going to argue the case in favor of Toad/Toadette. If you disagree, tell me why. And list some reasons. 'Toadette sucks' and 'Toad is better alone' is fine, but only if you back it up with something concrete.

Okay, the argument for:
1) It's interesting. Toad has always stuck me as sort of plain, and therefor undesirable as a Brawl character, but team characters are by nature interesting.

2) It could be funny. Imagine if they could use eachother as sheilds, like Peach does. Hilarious!

3) It better represents them. Toad is just one of many loyal servants/subjects of Princess Peach. Representing him as a dual character would better represent this feature.

Okay, that should be enough to start things off, lets do this.

 

[Pikminshallruleoverall]

If and only if Toadette gets in, it should be a costume or a trophy. Toadette has only appeared in three Games. Paper Mario:The Thousand Year Door, Mario Party 6, and Mario Party 7. She was only a filler character for the Mario Party's and in Paper Mario, she only taught Mario how to use some of his moves. Toad is a loyal subject and has been in many more games. I'd love for him to be in Brawl but Toadette, not really.

 

[Stryks]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92735&highlight=toad+toadette

Yeah sorry tu rain on ur parade...

 

[Flamestar666]

isn't she in MK:DD?

 

[Pikminshallruleoverall]

isn't she in MK:DD?

I knew I forgot a game. Yeah, 4 games now >.> She was still a filler.

 

[SubparSmashBrother]

I'm sick of all these Ice Climbers characters. Why can't we just let Popo and Nana do their thing, adding more clones of them would take away from their originality of using two characters at once. In my opinion, the only way the creators would even consider it is if they took out the Ice Climbers and replaced them. Furthermore, they wouldn't do it with something lame like Toad/Toadette, but with a much more deserving duo (one which I can't think of at the moment). If Toad were to make it into the game at all, which is a slim chance since there are far better characters to add, he would be a solo. Few people have heard of Toadette anyway.

Side note: I had a dream that I was playing Melee, and Toad was playable. He was awesome and almost made me reconsider my stance at him making into Brawl. Then I realized it was a dream, and remembered that although his moves made sense and were awesome in my dream, so did the fact that there were two old married Donkey Kongs that transformed into Peaches which you had to seduce with your body odor. (I have weird dreams)

Please Toad, just remain Peach's B move.

 

[Bolshoi]

Peach needs a better B move, her current one is sucky. And Toad would be awesome for Brawl!

There are a couple good possible team characters. Diddy & Dixie, Bub & Bob, Masa & Mune...but that's about it. And there really shouldn't be any more than 2-3 doubles characters, to keep it a unique feature.

 

[Croco]

I knew I forgot a game. Yeah, 4 games now >.> She was still a filler.

8 actually..

She first appeared in "Mario Kart: Double Dash!!"
Then in Mario Party 6, Mario Superstar Baseball, Mario Party 7, Mario Party 8, Mario Power Tennis, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, and Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix.

 

[King_cobra3600]

Toad not in brawl is like chocolate withuot cocoa

 

[Croco]

Toad not in brawl is like chocolate withuot cocoa

Cocoa is Chocolate.. lol

 

[Pikminshallruleoverall]

8 actually..

She first appeared in "Mario Kart: Double Dash!!"
Then in Mario Party 6, Mario Superstar Baseball, Mario Party 7, Mario Party 8, Mario Power Tennis, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, and Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix.

Mario Party 8 isn't out yet, and I'm pretty sure that she isn't in Mario Power Tennis. I've gotten really far in it. I never did play DDR:MM. I forgot Baseball also. Oh, but wasn't she in the Soccer game also. Too many games. She was still a filler though, my reason holds.

 

[Croco]

Mario Party 8 isn't out yet, and I'm pretty sure that she isn't in Mario Power Tennis. I've gotten really far in it. I never did play DDR:MM. I forgot Baseball also. Oh, but wasn't she in the Soccer game also. Too many games. She was still a filler though, my reason holds.

I agree with you on that part.. that "She is a Filler."

There isn't much we that we know about her either.. except she and "Jolene" have been the only seen female toads in the Mario series.
Which makes me think.. Why are there more males then females?
Wait..

I don't even want to know now..

 

[Bolshoi]

There are tons of female toads in Paper Mario.

 

[Croco]

There are tons of female toads in Paper Mario.

Paper mario 1?
Never played that one sadly.

 

[HiddenTiger]

Toadette is possibly the only Mario character more useless than Waluigi. >_> Let Toad show up of his own accord. He doesn't need a stupid knock-off character tagging along just to please her 3 overall fans. T_T

But, I would like to say to everyone who has used 'IC clone' as an argument, that you're very wrong. IC-esque teaming does not equal "OMG cloan!" They would have different attacks, as neither of the mushroom peoples have hammers nor ice powers. The idea still sucks, I'm just tired of people writing off all possible teams as IC clones.

 

[Icetrash]

Why am I against Toad/Toadette teaming up? We don't need any more Mario characters! We need to expand the franchises of DK series (K.Rool, Diddy), Kirby Series (King Dedede), Metroid series (Ridley) and 3rd party characters (Sonic, Megaman) before we even THINK of putting more Mario series characters.

 

[OysterMeister]

I don't think Toad/Toadette apearing in Brawl would lessen the chances of anyone you mentioned, Icetrash.

And to everyone in general, Toadette being filler is exactly my point. Because, truthfully, when you get down to it, Toad himself is filler. Aside from that Doku Doku Panic remake (Mario 2), Toads every appearance has been as just another face. Peach is often seen with at least two Toad's flanking her at all times, and it's true he often appears as guides in the Mario games, but often there will be more than just one Toad to do this.
Toad is just one of many servants/subjects of the Mushroom Kingdom, and on his own I don't see enough of a reason for him to be in Brawl as his own character.

But suppose he was paired with another character.... well, that changes everything. Team characters are interesting, and I'd love to see more than just the Ice Climbers in Brawl. Sure, it would make the IC less unique, but that's no reason not to do it. Sheik is really fast, does that mean there can be no more fast characters?
And being a team character just works for Toad. He usualy appears with other Toads anyway. But two Toads running around would just look weird, so why not use Toadette for the second team member? She's even more generic than Toad, but considering why she's being added, that doesn't really matter.

Toadette isn't being added to satisfy the three Toadette fans out there, she's being added to give Toad purpose.

 

[Stryks]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92735&highlight=toad+toadette

Yeah sorry tu rain on ur parade...

Do I need to quote this?...

 

[Starmanclock]

This brings back memories of the Toad rumor, but I like your thinking.

 

[Red Exodus]

No because Popo and Nana are doing a fine job on their own, we don't need a bunch of double team characters coming in. It kills the original idea.

 

[Pikminshallruleoverall]

I don't think Toad/Toadette apearing in Brawl would lessen the chances of anyone you mentioned, Icetrash.

And to everyone in general, Toadette being filler is exactly my point. Because, truthfully, when you get down to it, Toad himself is filler. Aside from that Doku Doku Panic remake (Mario 2), Toads every appearance has been as just another face. Peach is often seen with at least two Toad's flanking her at all times, and it's true he often appears as guides in the Mario games, but often there will be more than just one Toad to do this.
Toad is just one of many servants/subjects of the Mushroom Kingdom, and on his own I don't see enough of a reason for him to be in Brawl as his own character.

But suppose he was paired with another character.... well, that changes everything. Team characters are interesting, and I'd love to see more than just the Ice Climbers in Brawl. Sure, it would make the IC less unique, but that's no reason not to do it. Sheik is really fast, does that mean there can be no more fast characters?
And being a team character just works for Toad. He usualy appears with other Toads anyway. But two Toads running around would just look weird, so why not use Toadette for the second team member? She's even more generic than Toad, but considering why she's being added, that doesn't really matter.

Toadette isn't being added to satisfy the three Toadette fans out there, she's being added to give Toad purpose.

Have you ever played Super Mario 2? Where Peach got her floating ability from. He attacked in there. He was in Super Mario RPG and attacked. Peach and Zelda never attacked but were only saved. Toad may need to be saved sometimes but he has moves they can make.

 

[OysterMeister]

Have you ever played Super Mario 2? Where Peach got her floating ability from. He attacked in there. He was in Super Mario RPG and attacked. Peach and Zelda never attacked but were only saved. Toad may need to be saved sometimes but he has moves they can make.

I already mentioned Super Mario 2. And if he has moves they can use, what are they? Seriously, what can Toad do? I truely want to hear it.

Red Exodus: It kills the original idea? How? Because now we see more of it? I for one liked the idea of a team character, but I don't want the Ice Climbers to be my only choice.
Right now, Samus is the only know character who could truly be considered ranged. Do we not allow any more ranged characters because Samus has already been there, done that? Hell no. We want more ranged characters so Samus doesn't have to be the only choice. It's the same with heavy characters, transforming characters, light character, fast characters, and team characters.

Stryks: Stop trying to kill the thread. I already know about that other thread you keep pushing, but it was about replacing the ice climbers as well, something I am wholy against. THIS thread is supposed to be a debate about the possibility of Toad making an appearance as a team character.

 

[Stryks]

Thats pretty much the same thing, the other thread, u can argue over there if they should replace the ICs and if they should be a team... so if I put : Wolf should repalce fox thread, it will get closed because u can argue that in the wolf thread... use common sense...

 

[OysterMeister]

Thats pretty much the same thing, the other thread, u can argue over there if they should replace the ICs and if they should be a team... so if I put : Wolf should repalce fox thread, it will get closed because u can argue that in the wolf thread... use common sense...

No, I can't talk about Toad/Toadette in the other thread, because it became almost wholly about replacing the Ice Climbers. No room for even considering the character possibility. It's a 'replace Ice Climbers' thread first, and a 'Toad/Toadette' thread second. Imaging going to a thread about replacing Fox and trying to pitch the idea of Wolf as a character. Thank anyone would listen, or even care? And besides, it's near impossible to argue the case for a character when the idea is so closely locked in with the removal of a popular charcter by the title of the thread.
Now if you have something relevent to add, feel free, and if not, stop bumping this thread with posts about going to another thread. Thank you.

 

[Stryks]

oh man thats... man u have 0 reasoning, if u put toad/toadette as a team and dont even bring up the replace thing, nothin is going to happen, a sign wont appear: "sorry u gotta talk about the replacement thing" or something like that, people wont go "oh he thinks they should be a duo, wait he didnt say anything about the replacement, meh screw him then!", sure its a replace ICs for the toads, but u can pretty much talk about the duo in there too... If i make No wolf for brawl, they'll close it caus eu cant talk about not want wolf in brawl, u can say u dont want the ICs to be replaced but u want the Toads in brawl... that simple!...

 

[Pikminshallruleoverall]

I already mentioned Super Mario 2. And if he has moves they can use, what are they? Seriously, what can Toad do? I truely want to hear it.

I don't like the color.
He can take Peach's B down and giove her something else. Side B can be Spore. I haven't played as much games though. I can't say. Now how about you giving me a moveset for Toadette and Toad. Please, enlighten me.

 

[Bolshoi]

Someone made a move list for Toad, based off Mario Kart. It was pretty cool...

 

[Iggy K]

I already mentioned Super Mario 2. And if he has moves they can use, what are they? Seriously, what can Toad do? I truely want to hear it.

He can use attacks from SMB2 like throwing vegetables and using that backflip they do when they charge up for a third jump, and he is also pretty strong, he can use bombs, he can use items and attacks from the Mario Kart series, like a golden mushroom or using his kart to attack and he has arms and a very big head, so it's not like he can't punch or headbut, and Sakurai's team could make up some moves for him, they've done it before.

 

[psykoplympton]

The fact of the matter is this: Toad is only a suitable character for beating the crap out of, a punching bag if you will. He is annoying has a wierd voice and is aggrivating. He is a pissant and only people who are sick of what they already ahve that is 10 times better than toad and toadette would want them in it.

 

[SpendusWorks]

The only arguement I have for toad being paired with Toadette is that toad is a *****. He wouldn't be able to make it on his own as a character!

...but together, they are strong!

 

[dotdotdot!]

Personally, I don't like the idea of Toad and Toadette teaming up, and I'll tell you why. It's not faithful to the games. The Ice Climbers weren't just paired up for their health after all. They were paired up because it was faithful to the teamwork aspect of the 2-player game of Ice Climber. That sort of teamwork has never happened in a mainline Mario game, and in the Spinoffs, could only really be in reference to Mario Kart: Double Dash, a lukewarm entry in the MK series using a not entirely successful add-on to the system. Morover, Toadette was created specifically as a shadow which could be implemented or discarded at the whim of the developers, and because of that I don't think that she is at all deserving of a spot, NOR does she deserve to take a spot on equal terms with Toad, seeing as how he is much more recognizable, has more moveset potential, and, lets face it, was actually playable in a mainline Mario game (The first and only place that Peach was Playable before her recent DS game, I might add), AND in his own spinoff game, fighting Wario.

Because of this, I feel that Toad is more than deserving of an independent slot, and has ample room to have moves made for him.

Having said this, It is true that Toad seems to have become a "Species" more than a character, Although, that's not technically true. The people of the Mushroom Kingdom are known simply as "Mushroom People" and have been since Mario 1. Calling them "Toads" is a common misnomer that most fans make when they see little guys that look like Toad. But I can't argue how much Toad's image has been used as a "Tutorial" or "Shopkeeper."

Hows this for a compromise? Instead of Having a Team-up character, lets do it like this:

Toad is arguable the "Main" Mushroom person, so it goes without saying that he'd be the face-man. Then, when Toad uses his special moves, other Mushroom guys(Toadsworth, Toadette, Toadofsky, etc.) come out and do attacks. It could sort of represent the entire Mushroom population in one awesome character.

 

[OysterMeister]

Okay, dotdotdot! you raise some good points.

I can agree that Toad has never paired up with another Mushroom Person in any standard game, this is true. Truthfully, the only characters who could really be said to have done that are the Ice Climbers, and were they not in Smash Bros I would not have suggested that Toad should have done the same. But the Ice Climbers ARE in Smash Bros, and as such belong to their own type of character: The Team character.
Now, Samus right now is the only character who could truly be considered a ranged character in Smash Bros, and I'm hoping Brawl will have more diversity, because I want more options for when I want to play a ranged character. Similarly, I hope Brawl has more Team characters, because I like the idea but don't want my options limited to just Ice Climbers or nothing.

However since possibilities for team-up characters are rare, you've got to get a little creative. Toad, I feel, is a prime candidate for being a Team character without being unfaithful to the games. Because, as I've said before, Toad is himself just one of many near-identicle Mushroom people who act as servants and subjects to Princess Peach. Thus, being part of a team would represent that part of Toads nature which is just one of many.

I have another idea before I give up on this Team character possibility:
What if Toad was no longer paired with just Toadette exclusively? What if, as alternate costumes and/or colors, Toad was always the leader, with any one of many possible Mushroom people in the 'Nana' posistion backing him up? That way, the character is still Toad, can even still be called Toad, but also gets the benefit of being a Team Character?

So it would be a Toad and Toadette/Toadsworth/Toadington/etc.. character. It's still mostly Toad, except now he gets the benefit of another character providing support. Toad lovers get the spotlight on their beloved character, and the gamers get a brand new team character to play as. Everybody wins.

 

[dotdotdot!]

See, but that would pretty much trivialize the role of the "nana" characters to such an extent that there would be no real point to including them in the first place. Remember, the entire point of having characters be in Smash Bros. in the first place is for the character to be showcased. Having a tag along that changes with each costume would both misrepresent Toad as he's been traditionally portrayed, and would force him to share his slot with another character.

The debate for whether or not Toad & Toadette(Or any lesser Toad) should be a team is not really about the "Hey, wouldn't it be cool to have a duo character" factor, it's about the "Is that character honestly important enough to share a slot with this character" and "Is this character being portrayed in a way that gives fanservice to the majority" factors.

Not that I'm against the idea of a team character in Smash. I do think that is a fantastic concept that would do well to be explored further. If you check out some of the movesets i've done, I've done a Team character that allows you to switch back and forth (Rebecca chambers & Billy Coen From RE0), and a character that takes the team element and multiplies it by about 20 (Captain Olimar, flanked by his army of Pikmin), and also a few characters that use or summon partners with their B moves (Red the pokemon trainer, The Ouendan). Team characters are a good thing, but I just don't think they are appropriate for Toad.

 

[shadenexus18]

If the Ice Climbers don't come back, they should be replaced with a tighter duo or just as tight. Toad & Toadette fail in this category. They would just.....seem really out of place.

 

[OysterMeister]

Well, yes, having Toad as part of a team would indeed force him to share his slot with another character, I can't argue with that. But I don't see that as a negative thing, myself. In my opinion, Toad just isn't important enough for his own character slot. He's been a filler character since day one, where his job was as the mushroom person who told you that Peach was in another castle. This was in the infancy of the Mario series, and his role as being one of the only four non-enemy characters (the others being Mario, Luigi, and Peach) designed was all it took to nab him a spot in Mario 2, and he's been riding that wave ever since.
Aside from two solo appearances(Mario 2, whispy woods), Toad is traditionaly portrayed as either A) a filler character (like in mario cart) or B) a minion (like in Mario 64 and the original Mario).
In this light, I see Toads appearance in a team as fitting with his portrayal in the rest of the series: as a notable part of the setup, but not as a major character in his own right.

Yes, having several different 'nanas' would trivialize them, but why would you want these characters to have equal representation? Toadsworth and the rest are trivial flashes in the pan, and don't deserve much more than this kind of second billing in the way of being characters. They're purpose would be only to support Toad, and to help better represent his own qualities as the greatest of the filler characters in Mario.

In a nutshell, I don't think Toad is important enough to NOT share a character slot. And I also think that a Team character is the best way to represent his unique past.

 

[dotdotdot!]

Well, yes, having Toad as part of a team would indeed force him to share his slot with another character, I can't argue with that. But I don't see that as a negative thing, myself. In my opinion, Toad just isn't important enough for his own character slot. He's been a filler character since day one, where his job was as the mushroom person who told you that Peach was in another castle. This was in the infancy of the Mario series, and his role as being one of the only four non-enemy characters (the others being Mario, Luigi, and Peach) designed was all it took to nab him a spot in Mario 2, and he's been riding that wave ever since.
Aside from two solo appearances(Mario 2, whispy woods), Toad is traditionaly portrayed as either A) a filler character (like in mario cart) or B) a minion (like in Mario 64 and the original Mario).
In this light, I see Toads appearance in a team as fitting with his portrayal in the rest of the series: as a notable part of the setup, but not as a major character in his own right.

I suppose, but he is still quite a bit more important than the other remaining Mario candidates. Daisy and Waluigi are the very definition of Filler characters, and Wario has already been announced, and that does leave Toad as the final "Playable" hero that Sakurai could possible want to put in, and I'm confident that at least one more Mario character will get in. That leaves him as quite a bit more important that any other Mushroom person that's come along in the past 20 years.

And also, that wasn't "Toad" in Mario 1. It was 8 different "Mushroom people." Toad doesn't make his first appearance with a name until Mario 2.

Yes, having several different 'nanas' would trivialize them, but why would you want these characters to have equal representation? Toadsworth and the rest are trivial flashes in the pan, and don't deserve much more than this kind of second billing in the way of being characters. They're purpose would be only to support Toad, and to help better represent his own qualities as the greatest of the filler characters in Mario.

I don't think that they should have equal representation, that's why I thought that Toad would be a stronger character on his own, or with the other 'shrooms represented in his attacks. What would justify the mechanic of the "Follow the leader" character with Toad and a lesser Mushroom person? Mushroom people don't help eachother. They help Princess Peach. That's why Peach uses Toad in her neutral B move. It would be more appropriate for Peach to have Toad Follow her than Toad have another Toad follow him. There's no precedent for that sort of Team-up character in the games like there is in Ice Climbers, or in the other Team characters that I did move sets for that I mentioned.

In a nutshell, I don't think Toad is important enough to NOT share a character slot. And I also think that a Team character is the best way to represent his unique past.

Alright, but why are the lesser toads important enough to warrent sharing Toad's slot? Even if Toad isn't as important as, say, Peach or Wario, he's still fairly important to the Mario canon, what with two games in which he's playable (Mario 2, Wario's(not wispy) Woods) And several other playable appearances which you seem to attribute to being "Filler" (Such as his roles in Mario Kart and the Sports games). I don't believe those appearances are filler. Toad has been playable in Mario Kart from the beginning (since the SNES), and has been playable in every Mario Kart since then. If he were truly Filler, he wouldn't have appeared until recently, when the character choices were beginning to wear thin, (That is more recognized in characters such as Waluigi and Daisy) Or would have been dropped in a later game (Like Toadette, Birdo, and Donkey Kong Jr.).

I believe that Toad is more than deserving of a solo slot, and teaming him up with Joe random Mushroom person would simply take away from his awesomeness. I'm not sure why a team-up would represent his "Unique past" as Toad has only ever teamed up with a Mushroom person once in a Mario Kart game, in which she was quickly dropped in the next game. Toad has nearly always acted alone when he was playable, Which should be the main focus of Smash Bros, Playable appearances.

 

[OysterMeister]

that wasn't "Toad" in Mario 1. It was 8 different "Mushroom people." Toad doesn't make his first appearance with a name until Mario 2.

Oops. Well, it looked like him, and he never really identified himself, so I just sort of assumed...

What would justify the mechanic of the "Follow the leader" character with Toad and a lesser Mushroom person? Mushroom people don't help eachother. They help Princess Peach. That's why Peach uses Toad in her neutral B move. It would be more appropriate for Peach to have Toad Follow her than Toad have another Toad follow him. There's no precedent for that sort of Team-up character in the games like there is in Ice Climbers, or in the other Team characters that I did move sets for that I mentioned.

You got me there, Toad has no real precedent for teaming up with another mushroom person (well, except for that one time but even I won't say that counts).
But precedent is really only half the battle in Smash Bros. So far as I can tell, neither Fox nor Captain Falcon were ever capable of spontaneously erupting into flames, but they somehow managed it anyway. And I'm pretty sure that Ness is supposed to be using PSI powers, not PK abilities. And where exactly did Peachs exploding butt (peach bomber) come from? Riddle me that, Batman.

Mostly, I just think Toad should have a partner not because he's done it often, but because of the characters most likely to make the cut he's one of the rare few who even concieveably could become a team character. Olimar might, but most likely his Pikmin will make him into a whole new type of character, and I'm not even sure who most of those other characters you mentioned are. Except for Red, and man, if you want to talk about escaping precedent and ignoring playable appearances, then you need look no farther than a pokemon trainer for Brawl.

However, you raise many good points, and I'll admit that I'm less sure of things now than when I started, but I still say that a team Toad would be a lot more fun to play than a solo Toad.

 

[dotdotdot!]

But precedent is really only half the battle in Smash Bros. So far as I can tell, neither Fox nor Captain Falcon were ever capable of spontaneously erupting into flames, but they somehow managed it anyway. And I'm pretty sure that Ness is supposed to be using PSI powers, not PK abilities. And where exactly did Peachs exploding butt (peach bomber) come from? Riddle me that, Batman.

Well, they kinda had to make up moves for Fox and Falcon, simply because at the point where Smash 64 came out, they had never done anything outside of their vehicles, so they literally had no place to really go to draw moves. Ness is an anomaly, but not for the reason you think. PSI is the English name used in Earthbound, and PK (which is essentially the same thing) is what they use in the Japanese "Mother"(Earthbound in J-pan) series. He is still an anomaly because the moves he uses in Smash(with the exception of PK Flash) actually belong to Paula and Poo. Peach Bomber? I don't know, But several characters have silly moves that don't really mean anything.

but I still say that a team Toad would be a lot more fun to play than a solo Toad.

That's fine. I can respect that.

Also, just sos you know:

Rebecca Chambers and Billy Coen: From Resident Evil 0. They are a team, and you can switch between them.
Ouendan: Basically the Japanese name for "Elite Beat Agents"