Tipper SHDB to Advancing Nair and Upward Reel Animations

[LGameTales]

Disclaimer: The following contains information that I will seem to regard as revolutionary despite it actually being no more than mere trivia. I will also be assuming that this is all brand new information so I will indeed feel silly when someone reveals it is all old news.

I was playing around with Nair after short-hop Dancing Blade and I discovered that Marth can quickly strafe a bit toward the opponent as soon as Nair activates. If you tip a short-hop Dancing Blade, the opponent will be sent upward with a fair amount of knockback (and in turn, a fair amount of hitstun), and Marth will glide ever-so-slightly toward them due to the nature of Dancing Blade. If you Nair here, strafing inward with the control stick, the Nair will successfully combo after the Dancing Blade, and place you underneath the enemy—who will die from a true-combo Forward Smash, Up Smash, Forward Tilt, or Up Tilt.

Spoiler: Gifs

These are all true if the enemy doesn't DI or DIs toward Marth. Di-ing away will unfortunately allow them to evade the smashes, but Up Tilt will still be able to hit them.

Furthermore, this only worked at 122% or above. 121% somehow launched the enemy too high! (How is that possible?) The enemy Marth was getting a special reel animation at 122%, rather than his normal knockback animation at 121%. I did some math and found that, with the enemy at 121%, Dancing Blade's tip deals 79.9 units of knockback. At 122% it deals 80.3. If we're familiar with reel animations (like the untechable spin animation), we may know that they're random—but this one isn't. At 80 or more units of upward knockback, the enemy is always forced into this special upward reel animation. That's what allows these combos to work. Some characters (like Marth, here) have significantly lower hurtboxes than in their normal knockback animations.

There may be more possible combos than we think for our characters. I don't think we've been recognizing that this special reel animation can extend or create combos at higher percentages.

 

[Vipermoon]

You aren't holding inwards before or during your Nair input, correct? That's only possible if you Nair with the C-stick. I'm assuming you instead press A then hold forward as soon as possible.

Anyway, yes 80 knockback is the threshold for tumble knockback.

It was known informally that tipper DB1 set-up well for these because of its higher knockback and its more vertical knockback angle.

 

[LGameTales]

You aren't holding inwards before or during your Nair input, correct? That's only possible if you Nair with the C-stick. I'm assuming you instead press A then hold forward as soon as possible.

I personally utilize "aerial input lock" to buffer Nair while strafing in, but using the right stick is of course also possible.

Yes 80 knockback is the threshold for tumble knockback.

You say this like it's well-known(?) It's a shame how many facts are understood yet not popularized.

Advancing Nair is a staple exhibit of my post. Its body hitbox is perfect for combing from tipper SHDB and, afterward, into a smash or tilt for a true-combo kill (given Nair was executed correctly). Landing tipper SHDB at any percent beyond 120% (or earlier with rage) is essentially a kill confirm for Marth. If the enemy DIs in or not at all, they can get true-comboed with a smash, Forward Tilt, or Up Tilt after advancing Nair. If (s)he DIs away, Up Tilt after Nair still true-combos for the kill.

 

[Vipermoon]

I personally utilize "aerial input lock" to buffer Nair while strafing in, but using the right stick is of course also possible.

You say this like it's well-known(?) It's a shame how many facts are understood yet not popularized.

Advancing Nair is a staple exhibit of my post. Its body hitbox is perfect for combing from tipper SHDB and, afterward, into a smash or tilt for a true-combo kill (given Nair was executed correctly). Landing tipper SHDB at any percent beyond 120% (or earlier with rage) is essentially a kill confirm for Marth. If the enemy DIs in or not at all, they can get true-comboed with a smash, Forward Tilt, or Up Tilt after advancing Nair. If (s)he DIs away, Up Tilt after Nair still true-combos for the kill.

Ah yes, forgot about aerial input lock. It's well known among frame data guys at least.

Stuff to think about: The body hitbox of Nair is size 2.0 which is extremely tiny so you never know which characters' hurtbox sizes or certain areas of their tumble animation this will whiff on. We don't know the exact percents this move puts other characters in tumble either. Then there's rage which can accelerate this by a good amount.

By the way the fresh move damage bonus in a real game would bring your calculated 79.9 training mode knockback to 80+ on a Marth at 121%.

 

[LGameTales]

The body hitbox of Nair is size 2.0 which is extremely tiny so you never know which characters' hurtbox sizes or certain areas of their tumble animation this will whiff on. We don't know the exact percents this move puts other characters in tumble either. Then there's rage which can accelerate this by a good amount.

By the way the fresh move damage bonus in a real game would bring your calculated 79.9 training mode knockback to 80+ on a Marth at 121%.

Of course all these things are considered by me and those who read the opening post (I trust). Math will tell us Training Mode's tipper Dancing Blade (with no staleness considered) will start supplying 80 knockback units between 107% and 148% without rage, or between 90% and 125% with 100% rage. (Jigglypuff's and Bowser's weights were used for these numbers.)

This is surely a flexible range and indeed we don't have the information on which characters will get comboed by advancing Nair, but this is all trivial, anyhow. I don't expect anyone to find this practical as a kill confirm. Perhaps, though, more things can be done after advancing or retreating Nair (after any SHDB hit) or preexisting things can be extended or tipped more easily depending on the desired location of the enemy (which would influence how to use Nair)—for those who enjoy SHDB.

 

[GusTurbo]

I personally utilize "aerial input lock" to buffer Nair while strafing in, but using the right stick is of course also possible.

You say this like it's well-known(?) It's a shame how many facts are understood yet not popularized.

Advancing Nair is a staple exhibit of my post. Its body hitbox is perfect for combing from tipper SHDB and, afterward, into a smash or tilt for a true-combo kill (given Nair was executed correctly). Landing tipper SHDB at any percent beyond 120% (or earlier with rage) is essentially a kill confirm for Marth. If the enemy DIs in or not at all, they can get true-comboed with a smash, Forward Tilt, or Up Tilt after advancing Nair. If (s)he DIs away, Up Tilt after Nair still true-combos for the kill.

Could you explain the aerial input lock thing a bit?

 

[ElementUser]

Could you explain the aerial input lock thing a bit?

Beefy Smash Doods explains it nicely in a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUc4M80Sh_I

For Marth's case in the OP, after you input aerial Side-B, you would return the analog stick to neutral and then press A to lock the aerial input of Nair. After that, you would return the analog stick to drift towards the target and then mash A to keep the Nair input locked.