Raijinken
Smash Master
Hello everyone, Raijinken here with a new ruleset discussion.
This has been mentioned frequently in the Suicide Clause thread as of late, so I'd like to start an independent discussion.
Currently, in the event of a time-out, winner is determined by stock (a ruling the game applies itself), and then, for dislike of Sudden Death, by percent (before going to the potential tiebreaker round). However, as any Smash player is likely aware, percent is not a reliable indicator of who is in the lead. This is especially relevant in Smash4 with the presence of Rage, and the occasional odd mechanic like Little Mac's KO Punch.
Currently, a lot of people settle for the Percent Rule because it beats entrusting your tiebreaker to a torrent of bob-ombs. The purpose of this thread is to discuss potential options for an alternate tiebreaker.
I, personally, am interested in considering some of the Results Screen stats as potential sources of this tiebreaker.
The stats provided are as follows, in order:
Highlighted in Orange are stats that I, personally, do not reflect directly on the skill of the player.
Highlighted in Yellow are stats that are directly used when determining the winner of a match, and thus don't make sense (to me) as tiebreakers.
Highlighted in Green are stats I believe are directly skill-related and could be useful in breaking ties.
Self Destructs, as defined by the game, depend on the player having taken no damage from other players for the last three minutes, or since they spawned, whichever is shorter. This means you have to literally goof up really hard before you get hit. It also means that unless you spawn and hit the enemy with a suicide move before they can knick you for 1%, your "suicide" was actually their kill, as far as the game knows.
And now for the breakdown. All of these essentially assume (as is necessary when discussing time-outs) that the game is being deliberately drawn to time by one player or the other.
[collapse=Damage Given/Taken]
Damage Given and Taken don't differ very much from the current percent ruling. The key distinction is that this stat remembers all stocks, and Damage Taken includes things like bubble damage or stage hazards (when relevant).
Pro
[collapse=Peak Damage]
Peak Damage directly corresponds to survival, and is essentially the inverse of your opponent's ability to end the stock. These pros and cons assume higher damage is the "winning" side in this tiebreaker.
Pros
[/collapse]
[collapse=Hit Percentage]
Attacks made divided by attacks landed. Multi-hitting moves, including multi-hit projectiles like Needle Storm, or regular multi-hitting moves like Mario Tornado or Marth's nair, count as a single hit, and are scored as a hit if any part of them deals damage. Hitting a shield does not count as a hit, even if the shield breaks. This includes killing Jigglypuff with a shield break.
Pros
[/collapse]
[collapse=Longest Drought]
This measures the maximum time a player went without attacking. Shielding, jumping, taunting, rolling, and spot-dodging do not reset the timer. Balloon Trip (as well as its exploding cousin) do not reset the timer, but Flip Kick () does even if you don't use the second kick part. Grounded Spring (no hitbox) does not reset the timer, but aerial does.
Pros
Given a look at all of these, I don't think any one of them gives us a clear solution, as each has drawbacks no matter how you look at them. If I had to pick one, I would go for accuracy, simply because it directly penalizes the two most-dominant methods of safely stalling to time.
A combination of some of these could work. Or none of them could work. A TO may find doing some weird math combination of these measures to be too troublesome.
Well, those are my thoughts. What are yours?
This has been mentioned frequently in the Suicide Clause thread as of late, so I'd like to start an independent discussion.
Currently, in the event of a time-out, winner is determined by stock (a ruling the game applies itself), and then, for dislike of Sudden Death, by percent (before going to the potential tiebreaker round). However, as any Smash player is likely aware, percent is not a reliable indicator of who is in the lead. This is especially relevant in Smash4 with the presence of Rage, and the occasional odd mechanic like Little Mac's KO Punch.
Currently, a lot of people settle for the Percent Rule because it beats entrusting your tiebreaker to a torrent of bob-ombs. The purpose of this thread is to discuss potential options for an alternate tiebreaker.
I, personally, am interested in considering some of the Results Screen stats as potential sources of this tiebreaker.
The stats provided are as follows, in order:
- KOs (integer by victim)
- Falls (integer by source)
- Self-Destructs (integer)
- Damage Given (integer percent)
- Damage Taken (integer percent)
- Damage Recovered (integer percent)
- Peak Damage (integer percent)
- Launch Distance (integer feet)
- Ground Time (integer seconds)
- Air Time (integer seconds)
- Swim Time (integer seconds)
- Hit Percentage (integer percent)
- Ground Attacks (integer)
- Air Attacks (integer)
- Smash Attacks (integer)
- Grabs (integer)
- Throws (integer)
- Edge Grabs (integer)
- Projectiles (integer)
- Items Grabbed (integer)
- Max Launch Speed (integer mph)
- Max launcher speed (integer mph)
- Longest Drought (integer seconds)
- Transformation Time (integer seconds)
- Final Smashes (integer)
Highlighted in Orange are stats that I, personally, do not reflect directly on the skill of the player.
Highlighted in Yellow are stats that are directly used when determining the winner of a match, and thus don't make sense (to me) as tiebreakers.
Highlighted in Green are stats I believe are directly skill-related and could be useful in breaking ties.
Self Destructs, as defined by the game, depend on the player having taken no damage from other players for the last three minutes, or since they spawned, whichever is shorter. This means you have to literally goof up really hard before you get hit. It also means that unless you spawn and hit the enemy with a suicide move before they can knick you for 1%, your "suicide" was actually their kill, as far as the game knows.
And now for the breakdown. All of these essentially assume (as is necessary when discussing time-outs) that the game is being deliberately drawn to time by one player or the other.
[collapse=Damage Given/Taken]
Damage Given and Taken don't differ very much from the current percent ruling. The key distinction is that this stat remembers all stocks, and Damage Taken includes things like bubble damage or stage hazards (when relevant).
Pro
- A dominant first stock makes it FAR harder for the opponent to stall and win the tiebreak thus, especially for characters like Villager or Sonic who can struggle to actually approach. They have to not only take the lead in the present stock, but also make up for the previous stock.
- Early kills via gimps contribute little to your tiebreaking value.
- Heavy/survivable characters with high kill power (Lucario, for instance) may take more damage, kill their opponent early via a strong hit, then finally lose their stock, and have little damage output to fall back on for the tiebreaker. Similar to gimp issues.
- Can result in different types of runaway play. A Fox who takes the stock lead may well run and shoot, racking damage in case he loses his stock, instead of attempting to close the stock out.
- Still relies on damage dealt, which again, isn't an accurate measure of lead.
[collapse=Peak Damage]
Peak Damage directly corresponds to survival, and is essentially the inverse of your opponent's ability to end the stock. These pros and cons assume higher damage is the "winning" side in this tiebreaker.
Pros
- Direct measure of survival.
- Rewards early kill secures or gimps with tiebreaking power (enemy has lower max-damage).
- Not necessarily clean-cut on what's "better." To have survived longer, or to have taken less maximum damage to begin with? Could deserve some discussion.
- Games going to time can involve high damage on both players, overriding on any given stock any amount of "good performance" on another stock.
- Still relies, to an extent, on percent.
- Can be unfairly distributed due to character properties. Good recoveries/high weight/low kill power/etc influence this directly, without being related to player skill.
[/collapse]
[collapse=Hit Percentage]
Attacks made divided by attacks landed. Multi-hitting moves, including multi-hit projectiles like Needle Storm, or regular multi-hitting moves like Mario Tornado or Marth's nair, count as a single hit, and are scored as a hit if any part of them deals damage. Hitting a shield does not count as a hit, even if the shield breaks. This includes killing Jigglypuff with a shield break.
Pros
- Direct measure of player accuracy.
- Discourages "throwing out hitboxes" and projectile walling.
- Consequently penalizes characters who depend heavily on these strategies, including Villager, Samus, and some playstyles of other characters.
[/collapse]
[collapse=Longest Drought]
This measures the maximum time a player went without attacking. Shielding, jumping, taunting, rolling, and spot-dodging do not reset the timer. Balloon Trip (as well as its exploding cousin) do not reset the timer, but Flip Kick () does even if you don't use the second kick part. Grounded Spring (no hitbox) does not reset the timer, but aerial does.
Pros
- Forces certain types of stalling to approach. Villager-style planking will not increase the drought, while his opponent simply standing on the other end of the stage builds up power, forcing Villager to give up some security in order to build tiebreaking power.
- Could be disproportionately effective on Sonic, who is already good at stalling to time. Run away, stand still a moment, wait for approach, repeat.
- Standing skill is very hard to call a "skill".
Given a look at all of these, I don't think any one of them gives us a clear solution, as each has drawbacks no matter how you look at them. If I had to pick one, I would go for accuracy, simply because it directly penalizes the two most-dominant methods of safely stalling to time.
A combination of some of these could work. Or none of them could work. A TO may find doing some weird math combination of these measures to be too troublesome.
Well, those are my thoughts. What are yours?
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