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Tiers? (Include an explaination)
- Thread starter Nero
- Start date
StuperDuperMan
Smash Journeyman
Maybe you all are having real trouble with mastering samus... but as of currently, me nor my cousin who play Samus have not been beaten consistently... thus, i think you people underrate samus in 64 amazingly
StuperDuperMan
Smash Journeyman
i meant me and my cousin have not been beaten*
=p
=p
whitephoenix
Smash Rookie
Wow 
All this arguing over which characters are better than others. In a game of this complexity, I would be very hesitant to say any one character is better than the other.
I have seen people play very well with anyone (except maybe for the exception of DK). Now, this is not to say that there is not a true tier of some characters that are universally better than others. I just think it depends much more on how difficult a character is to be good with.
Not until recently did I think anyone could dominate with Jiggly. But then I met my friend Mike who absolutely abuses her sleep move. On the other hand, it took him a long time and lots and lots of practice to get that efficient with it. And this still doesn't change the fact that if he misses, he is setting himself up for destruction.
Now, there is one aspect that some characters are better facing certain characters than others. Some may laugh at Yoshi, but just try to beat that annoying dinosaur with Fox. Some of you have said that Kirby is incredibly awesome and that Fox sucks. But you just try facing a Fox master with Kirby.
My point is that you can master the game with pretty much anyone. Ssb is a very complex game. With enough practice, you can become effective with any character. It mainly depends on your personal point of view: What characters you are good with, and what characters your friends are good with.
All this arguing over which characters are better than others. In a game of this complexity, I would be very hesitant to say any one character is better than the other.
I have seen people play very well with anyone (except maybe for the exception of DK). Now, this is not to say that there is not a true tier of some characters that are universally better than others. I just think it depends much more on how difficult a character is to be good with.
Not until recently did I think anyone could dominate with Jiggly. But then I met my friend Mike who absolutely abuses her sleep move. On the other hand, it took him a long time and lots and lots of practice to get that efficient with it. And this still doesn't change the fact that if he misses, he is setting himself up for destruction.
Now, there is one aspect that some characters are better facing certain characters than others. Some may laugh at Yoshi, but just try to beat that annoying dinosaur with Fox. Some of you have said that Kirby is incredibly awesome and that Fox sucks. But you just try facing a Fox master with Kirby.
My point is that you can master the game with pretty much anyone. Ssb is a very complex game. With enough practice, you can become effective with any character. It mainly depends on your personal point of view: What characters you are good with, and what characters your friends are good with.
whitephoenix
Smash Rookie
Here is my "tier" showing which characters I think are easiest to master:
Medium Difficulty: (there is no "easy" in this game)
C. Falcon (very fast, lots of range, much power)
Pikachu (very fast and very powerful)
Kirby (king of jumping and lots of power)
Hard Difficulty:
Fox (extremely fast, but not very powerful)
Ness (you must learn to abuse his cheapness)
Mario (power in short range)
Very Hard Difficulty:
Yoshi (annoying and odd, yet sometimes devastating)
Luigi (slower, more strategy involved than his brother)
Samus (slow, but steady. A very well-rounded character)
Link (there is a technique to using him well)
Painful Difficulty:
DK (umm... can you say "slow"? Much power and defense though!)
Jigglypuff (extremely technical abilities, very low defense)
Usually, the faster characters are easier to learn to use well, and the slower characters are more difficult.
Medium Difficulty: (there is no "easy" in this game)
C. Falcon (very fast, lots of range, much power)
Pikachu (very fast and very powerful)
Kirby (king of jumping and lots of power)
Hard Difficulty:
Fox (extremely fast, but not very powerful)
Ness (you must learn to abuse his cheapness)
Mario (power in short range)
Very Hard Difficulty:
Yoshi (annoying and odd, yet sometimes devastating)
Luigi (slower, more strategy involved than his brother)
Samus (slow, but steady. A very well-rounded character)
Link (there is a technique to using him well)
Painful Difficulty:
DK (umm... can you say "slow"? Much power and defense though!)
Jigglypuff (extremely technical abilities, very low defense)
Usually, the faster characters are easier to learn to use well, and the slower characters are more difficult.
TheOmniAdam
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2005
- Messages
- 4
No Hardcoded Superiority
I agree with the above regarding there being no Defined best character. You can sit here and talk about stats all day long, but the truth is a character's greatest power is in the player.
I'm a link person, and all too often I have to hear about how useless he is because his stats are poor (and I'll admit, his stats are teh suck with his jumps and speed) but the true performance of a GOOD Link character is in the proper USE, not in the stats. Creating distance by damage with a flurry of well placed bombs and boomerangs, all too often overlooked moves, can be seene as nothing more than irritating, but when you're at 100% before you come within grabbing, or even reach attacks distance from Link, and he's got his sword ready and waiting... it's a whole different story.
No matter how lame you think a character is, there is always SOMEONE who has found a way to take that character above and beyond the call.
I agree with the above regarding there being no Defined best character. You can sit here and talk about stats all day long, but the truth is a character's greatest power is in the player.
I'm a link person, and all too often I have to hear about how useless he is because his stats are poor (and I'll admit, his stats are teh suck with his jumps and speed) but the true performance of a GOOD Link character is in the proper USE, not in the stats. Creating distance by damage with a flurry of well placed bombs and boomerangs, all too often overlooked moves, can be seene as nothing more than irritating, but when you're at 100% before you come within grabbing, or even reach attacks distance from Link, and he's got his sword ready and waiting... it's a whole different story.
No matter how lame you think a character is, there is always SOMEONE who has found a way to take that character above and beyond the call.
Fabrian
Smash Journeyman
The tier that was made by the ssb players online went like this
-Top-
Kirby
Pika
fox
ness
-Middle-
c.falcon
Yoshi
jiggly
mario
link - luigi (tied)
-Low-
samus
Dk
Pros and Cons
Kirby : Pros
- Can easily combo over 60% when starting the match
- has moves for almost all situations
- fast forward smash (forward smash spam can be avoided easily though)
- up A attack has A LOT OF PRIORITY!!!
- neutral aerial A can take down pikas forward aerial a
- normal down attack hits the enemies to below ground angle which kills low recovery people easily
- TEH SPIKES NEVER END
- edge guarding abilities are more remarkable than pikas
more...
Cons
- light weight
- crappy throw (can kill easily with throw in hyrule) and it can combo in hyrule too)
- turning into a stone leaves u open
- fighting lightweights causes a problem for combos
Pika: Pros
- most moves combo
- has a very good finisher (lightning)
- good edguarder and good recovery
- lightning bolt can be used to start a combo (ill explain if somone asks)
- can juggle very well
- very good grab
- he has fast moves
Cons
- recovery move leaves him open unless if u use the special triple agi (im not making it up >.>)
- down smash can be avoided too easily
- delay after b attacks are large enough to put u in big danger
- if u dont get the last hits of the forward aerial A u will be countered
- grab techinques are taken advantage by the enemy very easily
Fox: pros
- fastest attacker
- shine DUH!!!
- MOST COMBOS!!!
- his attacks mostly lead into another free hit
- laser cancel cam make it easy to rack up damage
- grab is useful when u miss an attack
- good upward smash
- neutral a (not aerial) can combo O.o
- he can shine cancel
Cons
- lagged up recovery
- weak WEAK WEAK!!!
- more useful for on stage battles (so his edguarding is less useful)
- dont do a grab game
- is easy to combo against because of his weight
- since he is a aerial comboer ground attacks will have more priority sometimes
Luigi : Pros
- he can Freakin slide grab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- good follow ups to up B
- hard to knock out since he can practicly float like peach
- down B seems useless but its VERY USEFUL for tough situations and to combo
- too deadly when well used in hyrule
- can do 2 drills in a short hop
- can make a laugh of a character that gets hit with taunt
- up B and smash up A = Powerfull
Cons
- hard to combo with
- needs time to get used to
- useless dash attack
- got to watch for upward smashers
DK : Pros
- strong
- chargable forward B
- good up B
- his aerials take a lot of space
- good and strong up A
- good throws
- heavy
Cons
- Big too big (easy to hit and grab)
- slow attacks
- only has 1 2 3 combos
- very few 1 2 3 combos
- luigi and jiggly can kill him very easily
- his moves leave him open a lot of times
Samus : pros
- distance and keep away fighter
- good back aerial kick
- fire fighter = less time for the enemy
- can kill an oponent when ur about to die as a surprise (when B charge is full)
- screw attack racks up damage
- fast front smash
Cons
- Cannot combo well
- most moves are useless
- short hop sucks for her
- people know that the back kick is coming (its her most comonly used deadly move
- screw attack leaves u open sometimes
- edge guard sucks
Yoshi : Pros
- most vital damage inflictor
- he is a threat to kirby and pika
- he can do jump cancel
- his egg sheild can be used a ultimate defence that leaves the enemy wide open
- good aerials
- good juggle
- good edgeguarder
- UP smash kills effectively
Cons
- dangerous to combo with (need to be an expert)
- easy to kill when off stage
- easy to combo against
- bad grab
- egg attack is useless at most points (excluding hyrule)
- 2 jumps
- B attacks leave him open
- 2nd jump wont protect u when u really need it ( at high percentages >.>)
Ness : Pros
- good juggling skill (includes smash moves)
- has jump cancel
- can do a long horizontal jump
- juggling air moves
- great throw
- 2nd best spiker
- pk fire and thunder can mess up peoples recovery at low percentages
- can deflect and can absorb projectiles
- longest recovery
Cons
- can easily be killed if the enemy takes the pk thunder damage when doing a recovery, making u fall straight down
- needs a lot of timing and juggling smash moves are hard to land
- smash moves leave him vulnerable
- down smash can be avoided easily because the yoyos string doesnt do damage
- has trouble coming back on stage if pk thundering near a wall
- pk thunder has lots of delay in the landing
- down b is not useful when not playing in sector z
- when playing a fox or samus they will never shoot u when ur expecting it (makes down b less useful)
- grab strategy is less effective when playing melee type players because they will try to stay in the air
Jigglypuff : Pros
- she has the best air time great for recovery
- she has the most powerful moves
- good edge guard
- drill doesnt need a z cancel
- possibly the best back throw in the game
- recovery is close to being the best in the game
- make noobs cry when u win
Neither Pros nor Cons
- lightest char (can avoid combos but can be killed easily)
- strongest attack *down b* (can kill easily but if u miss or u kill too fast they can kill u right after
Cons
- killed easily
- some useless moves
- sing isnt effective when enemy is in the air
- moves are hard to chain
- front throw is useless unless if u can use i as a first attack or a last attack
- some moves are really slow
- she can be hit easily because her best moves are best used in the air but there is no air defence
- 1 combo can kill her
- up smashers like mario or pika can kill her easily
C.Falcon : Pros
- he can juggle the aerials effectively
- his front aerial can combo
- he has a good finisher to his combos
- he can set up combos with most moves
- his falcon punch can be used as an effective recovery
- he can do a 180 degree angle push back
- has one of the best throw follow ups
- fastest runner
- all his moves are useful
Cons
- Up b is the worst recovery move (countered by a smash down tilt) because it has to grab the player
- combos can be countered at random times
- if u miss ur open for an *** whooping
- if ur down b ends right at the edge of the stage at a specific time ull be staying in the ending kick pose to ur death
- some of his moves are predictable
- he is easily comboed
- doesnt have many defensive moves
Editing soon and more additions and characters to come!!!
-Top-
Kirby
Pika
fox
ness
-Middle-
c.falcon
Yoshi
jiggly
mario
link - luigi (tied)
-Low-
samus
Dk
Pros and Cons
Kirby : Pros
- Can easily combo over 60% when starting the match
- has moves for almost all situations
- fast forward smash (forward smash spam can be avoided easily though)
- up A attack has A LOT OF PRIORITY!!!
- neutral aerial A can take down pikas forward aerial a
- normal down attack hits the enemies to below ground angle which kills low recovery people easily
- TEH SPIKES NEVER END
- edge guarding abilities are more remarkable than pikas
more...
Cons
- light weight
- crappy throw (can kill easily with throw in hyrule) and it can combo in hyrule too)
- turning into a stone leaves u open
- fighting lightweights causes a problem for combos
Pika: Pros
- most moves combo
- has a very good finisher (lightning)
- good edguarder and good recovery
- lightning bolt can be used to start a combo (ill explain if somone asks)
- can juggle very well
- very good grab
- he has fast moves
Cons
- recovery move leaves him open unless if u use the special triple agi (im not making it up >.>)
- down smash can be avoided too easily
- delay after b attacks are large enough to put u in big danger
- if u dont get the last hits of the forward aerial A u will be countered
- grab techinques are taken advantage by the enemy very easily
Fox: pros
- fastest attacker
- shine DUH!!!
- MOST COMBOS!!!
- his attacks mostly lead into another free hit
- laser cancel cam make it easy to rack up damage
- grab is useful when u miss an attack
- good upward smash
- neutral a (not aerial) can combo O.o
- he can shine cancel
Cons
- lagged up recovery
- weak WEAK WEAK!!!
- more useful for on stage battles (so his edguarding is less useful)
- dont do a grab game
- is easy to combo against because of his weight
- since he is a aerial comboer ground attacks will have more priority sometimes
Luigi : Pros
- he can Freakin slide grab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- good follow ups to up B
- hard to knock out since he can practicly float like peach
- down B seems useless but its VERY USEFUL for tough situations and to combo
- too deadly when well used in hyrule
- can do 2 drills in a short hop
- can make a laugh of a character that gets hit with taunt
- up B and smash up A = Powerfull
Cons
- hard to combo with
- needs time to get used to
- useless dash attack
- got to watch for upward smashers
DK : Pros
- strong
- chargable forward B
- good up B
- his aerials take a lot of space
- good and strong up A
- good throws
- heavy
Cons
- Big too big (easy to hit and grab)
- slow attacks
- only has 1 2 3 combos
- very few 1 2 3 combos
- luigi and jiggly can kill him very easily
- his moves leave him open a lot of times
Samus : pros
- distance and keep away fighter
- good back aerial kick
- fire fighter = less time for the enemy
- can kill an oponent when ur about to die as a surprise (when B charge is full)
- screw attack racks up damage
- fast front smash
Cons
- Cannot combo well
- most moves are useless
- short hop sucks for her
- people know that the back kick is coming (its her most comonly used deadly move
- screw attack leaves u open sometimes
- edge guard sucks
Yoshi : Pros
- most vital damage inflictor
- he is a threat to kirby and pika
- he can do jump cancel
- his egg sheild can be used a ultimate defence that leaves the enemy wide open
- good aerials
- good juggle
- good edgeguarder
- UP smash kills effectively
Cons
- dangerous to combo with (need to be an expert)
- easy to kill when off stage
- easy to combo against
- bad grab
- egg attack is useless at most points (excluding hyrule)
- 2 jumps
- B attacks leave him open
- 2nd jump wont protect u when u really need it ( at high percentages >.>)
Ness : Pros
- good juggling skill (includes smash moves)
- has jump cancel
- can do a long horizontal jump
- juggling air moves
- great throw
- 2nd best spiker
- pk fire and thunder can mess up peoples recovery at low percentages
- can deflect and can absorb projectiles
- longest recovery
Cons
- can easily be killed if the enemy takes the pk thunder damage when doing a recovery, making u fall straight down
- needs a lot of timing and juggling smash moves are hard to land
- smash moves leave him vulnerable
- down smash can be avoided easily because the yoyos string doesnt do damage
- has trouble coming back on stage if pk thundering near a wall
- pk thunder has lots of delay in the landing
- down b is not useful when not playing in sector z
- when playing a fox or samus they will never shoot u when ur expecting it (makes down b less useful)
- grab strategy is less effective when playing melee type players because they will try to stay in the air
Jigglypuff : Pros
- she has the best air time great for recovery
- she has the most powerful moves
- good edge guard
- drill doesnt need a z cancel
- possibly the best back throw in the game
- recovery is close to being the best in the game
- make noobs cry when u win
Neither Pros nor Cons
- lightest char (can avoid combos but can be killed easily)
- strongest attack *down b* (can kill easily but if u miss or u kill too fast they can kill u right after
Cons
- killed easily
- some useless moves
- sing isnt effective when enemy is in the air
- moves are hard to chain
- front throw is useless unless if u can use i as a first attack or a last attack
- some moves are really slow
- she can be hit easily because her best moves are best used in the air but there is no air defence
- 1 combo can kill her
- up smashers like mario or pika can kill her easily
C.Falcon : Pros
- he can juggle the aerials effectively
- his front aerial can combo
- he has a good finisher to his combos
- he can set up combos with most moves
- his falcon punch can be used as an effective recovery
- he can do a 180 degree angle push back
- has one of the best throw follow ups
- fastest runner
- all his moves are useful
Cons
- Up b is the worst recovery move (countered by a smash down tilt) because it has to grab the player
- combos can be countered at random times
- if u miss ur open for an *** whooping
- if ur down b ends right at the edge of the stage at a specific time ull be staying in the ending kick pose to ur death
- some of his moves are predictable
- he is easily comboed
- doesnt have many defensive moves
Editing soon and more additions and characters to come!!!
KAMillion
Smash Rookie
Fabrian's explanation is the best I read so far.
Tier's really aren't based off of how good one particular person is with that character, but all around how effective that character is when use to its full potential. One of the most accurate ways to decide this is to look at the results from several tournies and evaluate the success percentage for any one particular character.
The way Fabrian did it is good too. Just take make somthing like a poll, and have the experienced players vote on it. Eventually you'll see a trend. So far I can see that Fox, Kirby (who I heard is band from tournies), Pika and Fox are the most voted top tier's so far.
Still, I thought that Peach and Luigi were considered two of the best characters in the game? I know little about the game yet, though.
And whatz so great about Ness? I've digged him for awhile.
Tier's really aren't based off of how good one particular person is with that character, but all around how effective that character is when use to its full potential. One of the most accurate ways to decide this is to look at the results from several tournies and evaluate the success percentage for any one particular character.
The way Fabrian did it is good too. Just take make somthing like a poll, and have the experienced players vote on it. Eventually you'll see a trend. So far I can see that Fox, Kirby (who I heard is band from tournies), Pika and Fox are the most voted top tier's so far.
Still, I thought that Peach and Luigi were considered two of the best characters in the game? I know little about the game yet, though.
And whatz so great about Ness? I've digged him for awhile.
Fabrian
Smash Journeyman
ill edit my post for ness in a few minutes he has good moves but he has a great weakness that everyone takes advantage of
Also there is no peach in the game lol
thx for ur compliment though
Edit: Updated up to falcon and changed minor things
Also there is no peach in the game lol
thx for ur compliment though
Edit: Updated up to falcon and changed minor things
KAMillion
Smash Rookie
Peach not in the game... Huhh? I ment Princess Peach. She's missing from your list.
Fabrian
Smash Journeyman
i know you meant princess peach but shes in Super smash bros melee
and is not in the n64 version
and is not in the n64 version
KAMillion
Smash Rookie
Oh. Hehe.
Here I am thinking you all are disscussing the tiers for the Cube version. Where is the tier list for the cube version?
Here I am thinking you all are disscussing the tiers for the Cube version. Where is the tier list for the cube version?Fabrian
Smash Journeyman
-Top-
Kirby
Pika
fox
ness
-Middle-
c.falcon
Yoshi
jiggly
link - mario - luigi (tied)
-Low-
samus
Dk
Kirby is on top because he is easy to use well and because he has A Lot of good moves... even copy is a good move to use.
he also has good priority and he has the best recovery in the games. he has the most spikes and has really high priority moves.
he also has the potential for air fights.
Dk and samus are atlow tier because they have no follow ups to their moves and dont really have much potential but even though they can still be used well. i have seen good dks and good samuses. i play all the chracters myself and samus is one of my favorites because she is one of the best fo mind games
Pros and Cons
Kirby : Pros
- Can easily combo over 60% when starting the match
- has moves for almost all situations
- fast forward smash (forward smash spam can be avoided easily though)
- up A attack has A LOT OF PRIORITY!!!
- neutral aerial A can take down pikas forward aerial a
- normal down attack hits the enemies to below ground angle which kills low recovery people easily
- TEH SPIKES NEVER END
- edge guarding abilities are more remarkable than pikas
more...
Cons
- light weight
- crappy throw (can kill easily with throw in hyrule) and it can combo in hyrule too)
- turning into a stone leaves u open
- fighting lightweights causes a problem for combos
Pika: Pros
- most moves combo
- has a very good finisher (lightning)
- good edguarder and good recovery
- lightning bolt can be used to start a combo (ill explain if somone asks)
- can juggle very well
- very good grab
- he has fast moves
Cons
- recovery move leaves him open unless if u use the special triple agi (im not making it up >.> )
- down smash can be avoided too easily
- delay after b attacks are large enough to put u in big danger
- if u dont get the last hits of the forward aerial A u will be countered
- grab techinques are taken advantage by the enemy very easily
Fox: pros
- fastest attacker
- shine DUH!!!
- MOST COMBOS!!!
- his attacks mostly lead into another free hit
- laser cancel cam make it easy to rack up damage
- grab is useful when u miss an attack
- good upward smash
- neutral a (not aerial) can combo O.o
- he can shine cancel
Cons
- lagged up recovery
- weak WEAK WEAK!!!
- more useful for on stage battles (so his edguarding is less useful)
- dont do a grab game
- is easy to combo against because of his weight
- since he is a aerial comboer ground attacks will have more priority sometimes
Luigi : Pros
- he can Freakin slide grab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- good follow ups to up B
- hard to knock out since he can practicly float like peach
- down B seems useless but its VERY USEFUL for tough situations and to combo
- too deadly when well used in hyrule
- can do 2 drills in a short hop
- can make a laugh of a character that gets hit with taunt
- up B and smash up A = Powerfull
Cons
- hard to combo with
- needs time to get used to
- useless dash attack
- got to watch for upward smashers
DK : Pros
- strong
- chargable forward B
- good up B
- his aerials take a lot of space
- good and strong up A
- good throws
- heavy
Cons
- Big too big (easy to hit and grab)
- slow attacks
- only has 1 2 3 combos
- very few 1 2 3 combos
- luigi and jiggly can kill him very easily
- his moves leave him open a lot of times
Samus : pros
- distance and keep away fighter
- good back aerial kick
- fire fighter = less time for the enemy
- can kill an oponent when ur about to die as a surprise (when B charge is full)
- screw attack racks up damage
- fast front smash
Cons
- Cannot combo well
- most moves are useless
- short hop sucks for her
- people know that the back kick is coming (its her most comonly used deadly move
- screw attack leaves u open sometimes
- edge guard sucks
Yoshi : Pros
- most vital damage inflictor
- he is a threat to kirby and pika
- he can do jump cancel
- his egg sheild can be used a ultimate defence that leaves the enemy wide open
- good aerials
- good juggle
- good edgeguarder
- UP smash kills effectively
Cons
- dangerous to combo with (need to be an expert)
- easy to kill when off stage
- easy to combo against
- bad grab
- egg attack is useless at most points (excluding hyrule)
- 2 jumps
- B attacks leave him open
- 2nd jump wont protect u when u really need it ( at high percentages >.> )
Ness : Pros
- good juggling skill (includes smash moves)
- has jump cancel
- can do a long horizontal jump
- juggling air moves
- great throw
- 2nd best spiker
- pk fire and thunder can mess up peoples recovery at low percentages
- can deflect and can absorb projectiles
- longest recovery
Cons
- can easily be killed if the enemy takes the pk thunder damage when doing a recovery, making u fall straight down
- needs a lot of timing and juggling smash moves are hard to land
- smash moves leave him vulnerable
- down smash can be avoided easily because the yoyos string doesnt do damage
- has trouble coming back on stage if pk thundering near a wall
- pk thunder has lots of delay in the landing
- down b is not useful when not playing in sector z
- when playing a fox or samus they will never shoot u when ur expecting it (makes down b less useful)
- grab strategy is less effective when playing melee type players because they will try to stay in the air
Jigglypuff : Pros
- she has the best air time great for recovery
- she has the most powerful moves
- good edge guard
- drill doesnt need a z cancel
- possibly the best back throw in the game
- recovery is close to being the best in the game
- make noobs cry when u win
Neither Pros nor Cons
- lightest char (can avoid combos but can be killed easily)
- strongest attack *down b* (can kill easily but if u miss or u kill too fast they can kill u right after
Cons
- killed easily
- some useless moves
- sing isnt effective when enemy is in the air
- moves are hard to chain
- front throw is useless unless if u can use i as a first attack or a last attack
- some moves are really slow
- she can be hit easily because her best moves are best used in the air but there is no air defence
- 1 combo can kill her
- up smashers like mario or pika can kill her easily
C.Falcon : Pros
- he can juggle the aerials effectively
- his front aerial can combo
- he has a good finisher to his combos
- he can set up combos with most moves
- his falcon punch can be used as an effective recovery
- he can do a 180 degree angle push back
- has one of the best throw follow ups
- fastest runner
- all his moves are useful
Cons
- Up b is the worst recovery move (countered by a smash down tilt) because it has to grab the player
- combos can be countered at random times
- if u miss ur open for an *** whooping
- if ur down b ends right at the edge of the stage at a specific time ull be staying in the ending kick pose to ur death
- some of his moves are predictable
- he is easily comboed
- doesnt have many defensive moves
Link : Pros
- Good range in his attacks
- sword has good priority
- great finisher
- can go offense and defence at the same time
- most of the knockbak of his moves go upward
- good juggler
- good air comboer
Cons
- bad recovery
- bad delay
- bad grab
- hard to use in small stages
- he can be lethal but ull have to be an expert
- bombs can get in ur way sometimes
- can get killed with one hit
Kirby
Pika
fox
ness
-Middle-
c.falcon
Yoshi
jiggly
link - mario - luigi (tied)
-Low-
samus
Dk
Kirby is on top because he is easy to use well and because he has A Lot of good moves... even copy is a good move to use.
he also has good priority and he has the best recovery in the games. he has the most spikes and has really high priority moves.
he also has the potential for air fights.
Dk and samus are atlow tier because they have no follow ups to their moves and dont really have much potential but even though they can still be used well. i have seen good dks and good samuses. i play all the chracters myself and samus is one of my favorites because she is one of the best fo mind games
Pros and Cons
Kirby : Pros
- Can easily combo over 60% when starting the match
- has moves for almost all situations
- fast forward smash (forward smash spam can be avoided easily though)
- up A attack has A LOT OF PRIORITY!!!
- neutral aerial A can take down pikas forward aerial a
- normal down attack hits the enemies to below ground angle which kills low recovery people easily
- TEH SPIKES NEVER END
- edge guarding abilities are more remarkable than pikas
more...
Cons
- light weight
- crappy throw (can kill easily with throw in hyrule) and it can combo in hyrule too)
- turning into a stone leaves u open
- fighting lightweights causes a problem for combos
Pika: Pros
- most moves combo
- has a very good finisher (lightning)
- good edguarder and good recovery
- lightning bolt can be used to start a combo (ill explain if somone asks)
- can juggle very well
- very good grab
- he has fast moves
Cons
- recovery move leaves him open unless if u use the special triple agi (im not making it up >.> )
- down smash can be avoided too easily
- delay after b attacks are large enough to put u in big danger
- if u dont get the last hits of the forward aerial A u will be countered
- grab techinques are taken advantage by the enemy very easily
Fox: pros
- fastest attacker
- shine DUH!!!
- MOST COMBOS!!!
- his attacks mostly lead into another free hit
- laser cancel cam make it easy to rack up damage
- grab is useful when u miss an attack
- good upward smash
- neutral a (not aerial) can combo O.o
- he can shine cancel
Cons
- lagged up recovery
- weak WEAK WEAK!!!
- more useful for on stage battles (so his edguarding is less useful)
- dont do a grab game
- is easy to combo against because of his weight
- since he is a aerial comboer ground attacks will have more priority sometimes
Luigi : Pros
- he can Freakin slide grab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- good follow ups to up B
- hard to knock out since he can practicly float like peach
- down B seems useless but its VERY USEFUL for tough situations and to combo
- too deadly when well used in hyrule
- can do 2 drills in a short hop
- can make a laugh of a character that gets hit with taunt
- up B and smash up A = Powerfull
Cons
- hard to combo with
- needs time to get used to
- useless dash attack
- got to watch for upward smashers
DK : Pros
- strong
- chargable forward B
- good up B
- his aerials take a lot of space
- good and strong up A
- good throws
- heavy
Cons
- Big too big (easy to hit and grab)
- slow attacks
- only has 1 2 3 combos
- very few 1 2 3 combos
- luigi and jiggly can kill him very easily
- his moves leave him open a lot of times
Samus : pros
- distance and keep away fighter
- good back aerial kick
- fire fighter = less time for the enemy
- can kill an oponent when ur about to die as a surprise (when B charge is full)
- screw attack racks up damage
- fast front smash
Cons
- Cannot combo well
- most moves are useless
- short hop sucks for her
- people know that the back kick is coming (its her most comonly used deadly move
- screw attack leaves u open sometimes
- edge guard sucks
Yoshi : Pros
- most vital damage inflictor
- he is a threat to kirby and pika
- he can do jump cancel
- his egg sheild can be used a ultimate defence that leaves the enemy wide open
- good aerials
- good juggle
- good edgeguarder
- UP smash kills effectively
Cons
- dangerous to combo with (need to be an expert)
- easy to kill when off stage
- easy to combo against
- bad grab
- egg attack is useless at most points (excluding hyrule)
- 2 jumps
- B attacks leave him open
- 2nd jump wont protect u when u really need it ( at high percentages >.> )
Ness : Pros
- good juggling skill (includes smash moves)
- has jump cancel
- can do a long horizontal jump
- juggling air moves
- great throw
- 2nd best spiker
- pk fire and thunder can mess up peoples recovery at low percentages
- can deflect and can absorb projectiles
- longest recovery
Cons
- can easily be killed if the enemy takes the pk thunder damage when doing a recovery, making u fall straight down
- needs a lot of timing and juggling smash moves are hard to land
- smash moves leave him vulnerable
- down smash can be avoided easily because the yoyos string doesnt do damage
- has trouble coming back on stage if pk thundering near a wall
- pk thunder has lots of delay in the landing
- down b is not useful when not playing in sector z
- when playing a fox or samus they will never shoot u when ur expecting it (makes down b less useful)
- grab strategy is less effective when playing melee type players because they will try to stay in the air
Jigglypuff : Pros
- she has the best air time great for recovery
- she has the most powerful moves
- good edge guard
- drill doesnt need a z cancel
- possibly the best back throw in the game
- recovery is close to being the best in the game
- make noobs cry when u win
Neither Pros nor Cons
- lightest char (can avoid combos but can be killed easily)
- strongest attack *down b* (can kill easily but if u miss or u kill too fast they can kill u right after
Cons
- killed easily
- some useless moves
- sing isnt effective when enemy is in the air
- moves are hard to chain
- front throw is useless unless if u can use i as a first attack or a last attack
- some moves are really slow
- she can be hit easily because her best moves are best used in the air but there is no air defence
- 1 combo can kill her
- up smashers like mario or pika can kill her easily
C.Falcon : Pros
- he can juggle the aerials effectively
- his front aerial can combo
- he has a good finisher to his combos
- he can set up combos with most moves
- his falcon punch can be used as an effective recovery
- he can do a 180 degree angle push back
- has one of the best throw follow ups
- fastest runner
- all his moves are useful
Cons
- Up b is the worst recovery move (countered by a smash down tilt) because it has to grab the player
- combos can be countered at random times
- if u miss ur open for an *** whooping
- if ur down b ends right at the edge of the stage at a specific time ull be staying in the ending kick pose to ur death
- some of his moves are predictable
- he is easily comboed
- doesnt have many defensive moves
Link : Pros
- Good range in his attacks
- sword has good priority
- great finisher
- can go offense and defence at the same time
- most of the knockbak of his moves go upward
- good juggler
- good air comboer
Cons
- bad recovery
- bad delay
- bad grab
- hard to use in small stages
- he can be lethal but ull have to be an expert
- bombs can get in ur way sometimes
- can get killed with one hit
top:
Fox: fats and deadly. I can easily get combos with him without the opponent being able to fight back. I also like to use his reflector.
Samus: She has decent speed and I also like to spam her screw attack alot. It irritates people.
middle:
Captain Falcon: fast and deadly. His slow falcon punch and reletively uncontrolable falcon kick place him lower.
-rest except for Ness and Jigglypuff
lower than the lowest of the lowly low:
Jigglypuff-slow, light, and weak. She doesn't have a recovery move and her sleep moves can prove deadly...to her.
Ness-his recovery mov requires both skill and space. He is extremely vulnerable.
Fox: fats and deadly. I can easily get combos with him without the opponent being able to fight back. I also like to use his reflector.
Samus: She has decent speed and I also like to spam her screw attack alot. It irritates people.
middle:
Captain Falcon: fast and deadly. His slow falcon punch and reletively uncontrolable falcon kick place him lower.
-rest except for Ness and Jigglypuff
lower than the lowest of the lowly low:
Jigglypuff-slow, light, and weak. She doesn't have a recovery move and her sleep moves can prove deadly...to her.
Ness-his recovery mov requires both skill and space. He is extremely vulnerable.
Fabrian
Smash Journeyman
I disagree with almost everything AvikaW just said
... fox is fast but not deadly... his moves are weak that is also why he can combo.
jigglypuff isnt weak or slow and she has a recovery move
c.falcon`s falcon punch can be used for many combo finishers and falcon kick can be used on many occasions while playing even it is hard to combo with.
samuses screw attack leaves her vulnerable When DI comes in effect. it is not a move to rely on
... fox is fast but not deadly... his moves are weak that is also why he can combo.
jigglypuff isnt weak or slow and she has a recovery move
c.falcon`s falcon punch can be used for many combo finishers and falcon kick can be used on many occasions while playing even it is hard to combo with.
samuses screw attack leaves her vulnerable When DI comes in effect. it is not a move to rely on
What I think the Tier List is.
This is what I think the tier list is:
Top:
Pikachu
Kirby
Ness
Middle:
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Fox
Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Low:
DK
Samus
Link
Pikachu - He has amazing priority with his Fair and can combo well. His Up tilt and Uair are very good as well, and his tail is a disjointed hitbox. He has the best recovery in the game, and he can use Thunder to help KO an opponent after an Up Smash. He is also very quick and nimble. However, his projectile is pretty useless.
Kirby - He has a great Dair spike, and can combo well. His boots aren't a part of his body, and he has good recovery. However, he is very light and so he can be killed at low percentages.
Ness - He can double jump cancel and has great priority in the air. His grab has great priority and his throw is extemely powerful. His Yoyo is good for edgeguarding and juggling. However, he has a terrible recovery.
Captain Falcon - He can combo very well and very easily. He has a very good throw. Also, he has good power, amazing speed, and his Falcon Punch can be used to end combos. However, he is comboed very easily as well and is a fast faller. His recovery is very bad as well.
Jigglypuff - She has fairly easy 0-death combos, and a good throw. She also has a very good horizontal recovery. However, she is as light as a feather and be killed by Mario's Up Smash at 54 percent.
Fox - He has weak attacks and can combo very well. His Uair is great for juggling and sometimes killing. His short hop double laser is a good approach method. He also has good 0-death combos, but they are tough to do. He is very quick, but he is a fast faller. He is easily edgeguarded.
Mario - He is fairly good at comboing, and has a great projectile in his fireball. His Uair can be weakened for long combos. His Up Smash is very strong and can kill Kirby at 58 percent. He doesn't really have any outstanding strengths, but no outstanding weaknessed either.
Luigi - Many people think Luigi is alot worse than Mario, but I don't think so. Luigi has slightly better range than Mario, can combo better than him, and has a great kill move in his Flaming Jump Punch and shares Mario's Up Smash. However, Luigi is slow in the air, and slightly lighter than Mario. Also, his projectile isn't nearly as useful as Mario's. I think they are about even.
Yoshi - He can double jump cancel, and he can parry incoming attacks. Also, his Up tilt has amazing priority and can easily lead into the super damaging Dair. His lack of a third jump really hurts, though.
DK - He has long limbs, and so he has good range. His back throw is very powerful, and with his forward throw he can infinitely grab the opponent. However, he is slow, can be comboed easily, and has no real combos.
Samus - She has no real combos, and is very slow. But, she has a short recovery time, and her Fair can be used to set up short strings of attacks. Also, her Bair is very powerful when she first extends her leg out. It can be comboed into after a ground bounce from her Dair. She also has decent range and a decent recovery with her floatiness and bombs.
Link - He has an amazing offense with his bombs and boomerang. He has good range with his sword, and can combo into a deadly Spin Attack with his Up Smash. His Dair is a very good weapon when short-hopped and Z-canceled. However, he has a bad recovery time and the worst recovery (to the stage) in the game, making him sink to last place.
This is what I think the tier list is:
Top:
Pikachu
Kirby
Ness
Middle:
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Fox
Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Low:
DK
Samus
Link
Pikachu - He has amazing priority with his Fair and can combo well. His Up tilt and Uair are very good as well, and his tail is a disjointed hitbox. He has the best recovery in the game, and he can use Thunder to help KO an opponent after an Up Smash. He is also very quick and nimble. However, his projectile is pretty useless.
Kirby - He has a great Dair spike, and can combo well. His boots aren't a part of his body, and he has good recovery. However, he is very light and so he can be killed at low percentages.
Ness - He can double jump cancel and has great priority in the air. His grab has great priority and his throw is extemely powerful. His Yoyo is good for edgeguarding and juggling. However, he has a terrible recovery.
Captain Falcon - He can combo very well and very easily. He has a very good throw. Also, he has good power, amazing speed, and his Falcon Punch can be used to end combos. However, he is comboed very easily as well and is a fast faller. His recovery is very bad as well.
Jigglypuff - She has fairly easy 0-death combos, and a good throw. She also has a very good horizontal recovery. However, she is as light as a feather and be killed by Mario's Up Smash at 54 percent.
Fox - He has weak attacks and can combo very well. His Uair is great for juggling and sometimes killing. His short hop double laser is a good approach method. He also has good 0-death combos, but they are tough to do. He is very quick, but he is a fast faller. He is easily edgeguarded.
Mario - He is fairly good at comboing, and has a great projectile in his fireball. His Uair can be weakened for long combos. His Up Smash is very strong and can kill Kirby at 58 percent. He doesn't really have any outstanding strengths, but no outstanding weaknessed either.
Luigi - Many people think Luigi is alot worse than Mario, but I don't think so. Luigi has slightly better range than Mario, can combo better than him, and has a great kill move in his Flaming Jump Punch and shares Mario's Up Smash. However, Luigi is slow in the air, and slightly lighter than Mario. Also, his projectile isn't nearly as useful as Mario's. I think they are about even.
Yoshi - He can double jump cancel, and he can parry incoming attacks. Also, his Up tilt has amazing priority and can easily lead into the super damaging Dair. His lack of a third jump really hurts, though.
DK - He has long limbs, and so he has good range. His back throw is very powerful, and with his forward throw he can infinitely grab the opponent. However, he is slow, can be comboed easily, and has no real combos.
Samus - She has no real combos, and is very slow. But, she has a short recovery time, and her Fair can be used to set up short strings of attacks. Also, her Bair is very powerful when she first extends her leg out. It can be comboed into after a ground bounce from her Dair. She also has decent range and a decent recovery with her floatiness and bombs.
Link - He has an amazing offense with his bombs and boomerang. He has good range with his sword, and can combo into a deadly Spin Attack with his Up Smash. His Dair is a very good weapon when short-hopped and Z-canceled. However, he has a bad recovery time and the worst recovery (to the stage) in the game, making him sink to last place.
- Joined
- May 31, 2005
- Messages
- 834
why does it even really matter? smash 64 is ridiculously well balanced relative to any other fighting game i've played, even better than melee in my limited experience playing it. also, the tiers vary a bit depending on what type of game you're playing (one on one, ffa, team, team with team attack on, etc). at any rate, the skill of the player is much more important than the character he or she chooses to use. this tiers discussion should be changed from the characters to the players, starting with me at the top, as the undisputed reigning universal champion of everything. also, anyone who uses smilies will not only not be ranked in the tiers, he or she will be promptly executed by means of a bludgeoning instrument. smilies make me want to go on a bloody, bloody, killing spree. with all my undying, darkly obsessive love. joe.
m3gav - the tiers are applied to 1v1, not FFA or anything because those have more random elements. And yes, skill > tiers but that odesn't mean tiers don't exist in some fashion, even if it isn't that major. For tiers to not exist, every character would have the same hitboxes, same delay, same damaging attacks, same weight, etc. SSB64 is very balanced though so tiers really shouldn't matter if you're good at pwning the other guy
geouuuuuuu - i didn't know you came here
geouuuuuuu - i didn't know you came here
Top:
Falcon - Fastest runner in the game by FAR (have him race Fox, the 2nd fastest, to see what i mean). Lack of defense? Nah. CF can run away and run back in a split second. Can't touch him. When opponent jumps, time your run so you run back at him just as he lands. Grab, forward throw, up+A a few times, aerial flip kick twice, then air grab== 50% combo started by other guy jumping. Great juggling, great range on smash move (flame kick). Poor recovery, but that's why you stay on the ground and only jump to juggle, and only use up+B to finish a combo. Best up+A smash in the game (elbow punch). B moves are slow and risky (don't use them). IMO, the best 1v1 character simply b/c of running speed.
Ness - Maybe the best overall character. The sitdown (aerial down+A) move is brutal and leads to dribbling and juggling combos (and did you know, can block projectiles). Bat is a weak smash move.
Pika - Quick, grabs have high priority. Good aerial juggling. Small target but NO SITDOWN MOVE. (Some people call a sitdown a "spike", but we call it a sitdown. When you send them down into the pit you can say, "Sit down")
Kirby - Easy and cheap. One of the better smash moves in the game (roundhouse kick)-- powerful and has a long range. You can win doing nothing but drill kicks (aerial down+A) which also function as a sitdown.
Middle:
Jigglypuff
Fox
Mario
Yoshi
Low:
DK
Samus
Link
Luigi
Falcon - Fastest runner in the game by FAR (have him race Fox, the 2nd fastest, to see what i mean). Lack of defense? Nah. CF can run away and run back in a split second. Can't touch him. When opponent jumps, time your run so you run back at him just as he lands. Grab, forward throw, up+A a few times, aerial flip kick twice, then air grab== 50% combo started by other guy jumping. Great juggling, great range on smash move (flame kick). Poor recovery, but that's why you stay on the ground and only jump to juggle, and only use up+B to finish a combo. Best up+A smash in the game (elbow punch). B moves are slow and risky (don't use them). IMO, the best 1v1 character simply b/c of running speed.
Ness - Maybe the best overall character. The sitdown (aerial down+A) move is brutal and leads to dribbling and juggling combos (and did you know, can block projectiles). Bat is a weak smash move.
Pika - Quick, grabs have high priority. Good aerial juggling. Small target but NO SITDOWN MOVE. (Some people call a sitdown a "spike", but we call it a sitdown. When you send them down into the pit you can say, "Sit down")
Kirby - Easy and cheap. One of the better smash moves in the game (roundhouse kick)-- powerful and has a long range. You can win doing nothing but drill kicks (aerial down+A) which also function as a sitdown.
Middle:
Jigglypuff
Fox
Mario
Yoshi
Low:
DK
Samus
Link
Luigi
MarthMaster2
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2005
- Messages
- 83
This is my opinion.
Top
Fox
Falcon
Kirby
Fox is probably the best with the speed, power, and specials to back it up.
Falcon has the best speed but his attacks are slow and there are no projectiles.
Kirby has great specials and the ability to use his opponents powers but is a little slow and has slightly poor endurance
Middle
Ness
Pickachu
Link
Samus
Luigi
Mario
Ness is a very good character but dificult to master. Pikachu is fast and furious but lacks in endurance and specials. Link is kinda basic okay specials and great power but he is a little slow and has some lag. Samus is good but i was never really good with this character. Luigi is a good character with good specials and a great throw but isn't much better than mario. Mario isn't much diferent from luigi.
Low
Dk
Jigglypuff
Dk is just raw power and endurance but is very slow.
Jigglypuff has poor speed and endurance but some really high prority attacks.
Top
Fox
Falcon
Kirby
Fox is probably the best with the speed, power, and specials to back it up.
Falcon has the best speed but his attacks are slow and there are no projectiles.
Kirby has great specials and the ability to use his opponents powers but is a little slow and has slightly poor endurance
Middle
Ness
Pickachu
Link
Samus
Luigi
Mario
Ness is a very good character but dificult to master. Pikachu is fast and furious but lacks in endurance and specials. Link is kinda basic okay specials and great power but he is a little slow and has some lag. Samus is good but i was never really good with this character. Luigi is a good character with good specials and a great throw but isn't much better than mario. Mario isn't much diferent from luigi.
Low
Dk
Jigglypuff
Dk is just raw power and endurance but is very slow.
Jigglypuff has poor speed and endurance but some really high prority attacks.
clonedlink
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2005
- Messages
- 2
Link
I thought this was tier opinions not smash on link
I think if link is used by a capable character he is definately top because I've heard some of the best fox players say they don't want to face link because of his strong high priority attacks.
AND as for links recovery it can be one of the best especially if u learn bomb recovery, it will give u a chance to get in one final b up or grapple a wall
LINK CAN OWN ALL
I thought this was tier opinions not smash on link
I think if link is used by a capable character he is definately top because I've heard some of the best fox players say they don't want to face link because of his strong high priority attacks.
AND as for links recovery it can be one of the best especially if u learn bomb recovery, it will give u a chance to get in one final b up or grapple a wall
LINK CAN OWN ALL
MarthMaster2
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2005
- Messages
- 83
I'm a decent fox player. I have never been scared of link. I know what he's capable of (atleast on the 64 version) cause i play as him quite often.
yshikllr
Smash Apprentice
Anyone who doesn't put pikachu at the top is just plain WRONG. Pikachu is far better than any other character, to the point where it's disgusting and imbalanced. Fair to Uair cannot be avoided if done properly, amazing Utilt juggle, ridiculous grab range, but all of this doesn't compare to the fact that Pikachu is by far the best at edge guarding, if the enemy if off the edge, there is no excuse for a pikachu to not finish (via Bair) with his UpB range. Here is my tier list:
Top:
Pikachu
Middle:
Yoshi
Kirby
Ness
Fox
Jigglypuff
Link
Bottom:
Mario
Captain Falcon
DK
Luigi
Samus
*Note that DK moves to top tier if his chain throw nonsense is used
Yoshi is 2nd with amazing combo ability, as with link though, must hit all your L/Z cancels........and also must use his djc extensively. And i don't remember who it was but someone posted that his eggs were useless on every stage except hyrule, all i gotta say is "wow, guess you don't believe in edge-guarding", i'll just put it this way, yoshi moves to bottom tier without his eggs.
Top:
Pikachu
Middle:
Yoshi
Kirby
Ness
Fox
Jigglypuff
Link
Bottom:
Mario
Captain Falcon
DK
Luigi
Samus
*Note that DK moves to top tier if his chain throw nonsense is used
Yoshi is 2nd with amazing combo ability, as with link though, must hit all your L/Z cancels........and also must use his djc extensively. And i don't remember who it was but someone posted that his eggs were useless on every stage except hyrule, all i gotta say is "wow, guess you don't believe in edge-guarding", i'll just put it this way, yoshi moves to bottom tier without his eggs.
MarthMaster2
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2005
- Messages
- 83
Oooooo please i thought you were an experienced player. Fox is better than the others on the 64 version by so much they practically kneel down and pray that they won't get their butts whooped before every match with fox.
But you are half right i forgot that pikachu was a top tier by accident. He is pretty annoying in some matches i've fought but still i don't fear link or pika. Also have you seen picka's specials they aren't very good. Thunder is hard to hit the opponent with and his b up needs some time to mater. His b move is to similar to mario's and can easily be countered by a reflector leaving pikachu temporarily paralyzed and open to one of fox's strong smashes.
But you are half right i forgot that pikachu was a top tier by accident. He is pretty annoying in some matches i've fought but still i don't fear link or pika. Also have you seen picka's specials they aren't very good. Thunder is hard to hit the opponent with and his b up needs some time to mater. His b move is to similar to mario's and can easily be countered by a reflector leaving pikachu temporarily paralyzed and open to one of fox's strong smashes.
Captain_Obvious
Smash Journeyman
I disagree with your comments about Pika. He isn't the top of the top (either Falcon or Ness goes there), but he is still very dangerous in the hands of a skilled player.
Firstly, you should know that specials don't make a character, and, even if they did, Pikachu's specials augment his other skills, making him substantially more dangerous. Usmash didn't quite send them out of the arena? No problem! Short-hop and B-down = dead. That B-up move, though it does take time to master, is amazing for someone who knows what they're doing. The best recovery in the game, Pika can recover from low/medium damage spikes, long, near-KO wall hits, and can pretty much be wherever he wants to be. And though you can hit him out of the move, if he's good and hard to predict, you can't touch him. The neut. B attack as well is not a spam weapon. It is used to shake up your opponent, to give them something else to think about besides the yellow electric death heading their way. If it hits, fine, you can throw them. If they shield, reflect or absorb, it's combo time! AND that neut. B also goes around corners, making it a ***** of an edgeguarding weapon.
Fox IS an excellent character, but don't confuse an inexperienced Pikachu with the real thing.
- Captain R.D. Obvious
Firstly, you should know that specials don't make a character, and, even if they did, Pikachu's specials augment his other skills, making him substantially more dangerous. Usmash didn't quite send them out of the arena? No problem! Short-hop and B-down = dead. That B-up move, though it does take time to master, is amazing for someone who knows what they're doing. The best recovery in the game, Pika can recover from low/medium damage spikes, long, near-KO wall hits, and can pretty much be wherever he wants to be. And though you can hit him out of the move, if he's good and hard to predict, you can't touch him. The neut. B attack as well is not a spam weapon. It is used to shake up your opponent, to give them something else to think about besides the yellow electric death heading their way. If it hits, fine, you can throw them. If they shield, reflect or absorb, it's combo time! AND that neut. B also goes around corners, making it a ***** of an edgeguarding weapon.
Fox IS an excellent character, but don't confuse an inexperienced Pikachu with the real thing.
- Captain R.D. Obvious
DeeDoubleU
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2005
- Messages
- 407
In old school SSB, Ness was a bloody murder because his Dair was instantly pulled out, had massive priority, and could not be recovered from... coupled with his ability to throw the opponents out at 0 damage and without any trouble grabbing, a good Ness player was almost guaranteed one hit kills against anyone. Also, while his slow recovery would make him a sitting duck for FFA games, the actual distance he could recover from made him have much less risk for spiking than you would have for captain Falcon.
cfalcon
Smash Apprentice
kirby
pikachu
ness
Fox
Falcon
jigglypuff
Yoshi
samus
Link
Mario
Luigi
DK
pikachu
ness
Fox
Falcon
jigglypuff
Yoshi
samus
Link
Mario
Luigi
DK
Man theres a lot of link bashing going on here, and its really making me laugh. All of that are putting Link anywhere other than top tier have not seen what a true link master can do.
Top:
Kirby
Link
Pikachu
Samus
Middle:
Yoshi
Ness
Fox
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Bottom:
Mario
DK
Luigi
Well theres my list, all the I didnt put too much thought into it. Without a doubt Kirby and Pikachu are characters that are far superiour in the hands of an average player. That is just how the characters are set-up Id hate to say it, but those are unfairly stacked. Then Samus because well her incredible weight and jump combined with her power make her unstoppable, and of course Link, when used correctly Link can completely mop the floor against anyone other than an equally skilled Link player.
Top:
Kirby
Link
Pikachu
Samus
Middle:
Yoshi
Ness
Fox
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Bottom:
Mario
DK
Luigi
Well theres my list, all the I didnt put too much thought into it. Without a doubt Kirby and Pikachu are characters that are far superiour in the hands of an average player. That is just how the characters are set-up Id hate to say it, but those are unfairly stacked. Then Samus because well her incredible weight and jump combined with her power make her unstoppable, and of course Link, when used correctly Link can completely mop the floor against anyone other than an equally skilled Link player.
Captain_Obvious
Smash Journeyman
Why do you believe that Link is such a good character? Give us the breakdown.
- Captain R.D. Obvious
- Captain R.D. Obvious
vidjogamer
Smash Master
top tier is definitely like this: Pikachu, Kirby, Falcon. There is no way that jigglypuff isnt at the top of mid tier. she is too good. Maybe the people you guys play just suck with her. Jiggs > you.
Christ, half of you are putting your favorite character as top tier...
That's not how it works. It doesn't matter how good you are with a character, it matters how good the character is by itself.
Why not just put every fuċking character top tier and forget about it? Yeah, thought not.
I don't claim to know where to put all the characters, I'm just sick of what I saw in this topic.
That's not how it works. It doesn't matter how good you are with a character, it matters how good the character is by itself.
Why not just put every fuċking character top tier and forget about it? Yeah, thought not.
I don't claim to know where to put all the characters, I'm just sick of what I saw in this topic.
UltimateYoshi
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2004
- Messages
- 33
I think most Yoshi players will agree that that's the worst disadvantadge that Yoshi has. If you get knocked off the stage, and then you use your jump, and they edgeguard you, you're screwed, even at really low percentages. This is the only thing preventing me from winning most of my games. I really, really hope that they change that in SSB Revolution, because that really hurts my game in both SSB and SSBM.Fabrian said:
Well after a lot of reading of this thread, I still haven't managed to find out what a tier is. HOWEVER, I have managed to come up with what a Tier list is:
Tier list:
- Characters you can play with at the top.
- Characters you can't play with at the very bottom.
- Characters you use sometimes go in the middle.
Regardless of this, however, I'd like to point out that due to the fact that all of the tier lists are differing by A LOT (except maybe Luigi and DK which seem to be at the bottom a lot), I don't think a proper list could be composed. Characters have their strengths and weaknesses. Some characters may be better than others. That doesn't put them straight at the top, though.
I noticed Kirby in there a lot. But for god's sake I've been playing online for a WEEK and only TWO decent Kirby players have shown up. Come on guys? Where's the rest of them. What about Pikachu players? He's at the top a lot too, but where are they?
What I HAVE seen a lot of online, however, are Foxes, Links and C. Falcons. Ness' show up here and there - I don't think I play a FFA game without at least ONE of these.
UltimateYoshi here's one of the two Yoshi players I've come across (but the other one was just cheap, UltimateYoshi here actually knows what he's doing)
DK players are rare, and all they try and do is throw you which is just so EASY to avoid against him.
Only good Mario player I've seen was TODAY. His name's JaimeHR but IMO I just think he's good with all characters but chooses Fox and Link mainly.
Jigglypuff... no comments. The only one I fought just fooled around (I even think that might have been me).
So, based on my experience over this past week, here's my tier list, judged not what I play with, but what I usually play againts:
-Top-
Fox (too fast and too many combos)
Captain Falcon (same as above, but with extras: easy grabs, natural cheapness and good air moves)
Link (OMG who cares if he doesn't jump? If he's on you, you're just doomed)
-Middle-
Ness
Yoshi
Kirby <--- I play here.
Mario
Pikachu <--- I play here sometimes.
-Bottom-
Samus <--- Sometimes...
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff
Tier list:
- Characters you can play with at the top.
- Characters you can't play with at the very bottom.
- Characters you use sometimes go in the middle.
Regardless of this, however, I'd like to point out that due to the fact that all of the tier lists are differing by A LOT (except maybe Luigi and DK which seem to be at the bottom a lot), I don't think a proper list could be composed. Characters have their strengths and weaknesses. Some characters may be better than others. That doesn't put them straight at the top, though.
I noticed Kirby in there a lot. But for god's sake I've been playing online for a WEEK and only TWO decent Kirby players have shown up. Come on guys? Where's the rest of them. What about Pikachu players? He's at the top a lot too, but where are they?
What I HAVE seen a lot of online, however, are Foxes, Links and C. Falcons. Ness' show up here and there - I don't think I play a FFA game without at least ONE of these.
UltimateYoshi here's one of the two Yoshi players I've come across (but the other one was just cheap, UltimateYoshi here actually knows what he's doing)
DK players are rare, and all they try and do is throw you which is just so EASY to avoid against him.
Only good Mario player I've seen was TODAY. His name's JaimeHR but IMO I just think he's good with all characters but chooses Fox and Link mainly.
Jigglypuff... no comments. The only one I fought just fooled around (I even think that might have been me).
So, based on my experience over this past week, here's my tier list, judged not what I play with, but what I usually play againts:
-Top-
Fox (too fast and too many combos)
Captain Falcon (same as above, but with extras: easy grabs, natural cheapness and good air moves)
Link (OMG who cares if he doesn't jump? If he's on you, you're just doomed)
-Middle-
Ness
Yoshi
Kirby <--- I play here.
Mario
Pikachu <--- I play here sometimes.
-Bottom-
Samus <--- Sometimes...
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff
Break down here:Captain_Obvious said:
Boomerang: Do I really have to explain? This is like the best B move there is and Link can probably just spam this. You can throw it, then dash A the player for easy damage. Or throw for some combos - the player sometimes can't recover if you're doing short distances. AND you can AIM the **** thing! HELLO edgeguarding? *blinks* Plus the fact that you can just throw it anywhere and it has a chance of hitting someone you didn't intend to hit.
Bomb: Free items in a non-item world, with this endless supply you can not only edgeguard but also get opponents above you... or in front, or back, or in the background - only place it won't go is OUTSIDE the screen.
Aerial f+A: OMG priority against almost everything. -_- They use and abuse this for victory. This is pretty much THE move that doesn't let me win.
Down+A: This will stop people rolling around you. And it has a BLOODY FAST RECOVERY! Also why I can't win.
Aerial d+A: Has its uses, but also high priority. Hard to aim though.
Up+A: Free combos! :D
Aerial u+A: GAH! There's almost no way you can try and get Link from above with this.
F+A: The smash move that reaches above and in front, there are several areas where this move can just TEAR you apart.
Last but not least, his throw, which is SO GOOD because it is SO BAD, and because of this it allows you to make combos with it against walls.
So, in short:
You can't roll or he d+As you.
You can't jump or he ***** you.
You can't wait for him to come down on you, or you get ***** again.
Assuming the guy is good, he'll have PERFECT precision and he'll counter all you got and basically smash you at the right times and combo you to death.
I'm not saying he's the best, but he's on guy I've been seeing played a LOT, and most of the time they beat, and I don't lose a lot (except against Link, C. Falcon and Fox which is what most people play. If it's not one of those 3, I almost always win).
GoVonzell
Smash Apprentice
Here's how I think the tiers should go. This is in free-for-all mode with 4 players (which I tend to play more)
TOP TIER
Mario - Has combos that can hit multiple opponents at once (Examples: Mario Tornado and Coin Attack)
Kirby - The more opponents equals the more powers to steal. You can adapt to any situation easier
Samus - With everyone else fighting each other, this gives you time to fully charge the charge shot. The screw attack can also juggle multiple opponents (just like Mario's coin attack)
C. Falcon - The other players can be fighting each other, then you come up and do a Falcon Punch or something and blow them all away
MIDDLE TIER
DK - Same reasons as Falcon but considerably slower
Pikachu - Fast, quick strikes and a couple good finishing moves. This can be taken advantage of in 4-player matches more than 2-player since you can be quick and stealthy
Link - Does significantly better in 4-player matches. Bombs and endless sword slashes are put to better use.
Luigi - An inferior version of Mario as said by many. His Dash A is slightly more useful against multiple players (It's still useless though)
Jigglypuff - Attacks with the puffster work wonders when in the fray, especially sleep and Giant Punch; Sing can put multiple enemies to sleep
Yoshi - A couple good in the fray attacks, but otherwise a weak player; no third jump, and the second jump is so easy to see coming that it can be edgeguarded against easily
BOTTOM TIER
Fox - Lousy attacks, great speed; play like Pikachu without the big finisher
Ness - Ness should stick to 2 player battles. His attacks either leave him wide open for a counter, or are just not strong enough to cut it. His absorb and PK Fire are the only 2 useful attacks in his repertoire.
Any thoughts?
TOP TIER
Mario - Has combos that can hit multiple opponents at once (Examples: Mario Tornado and Coin Attack)
Kirby - The more opponents equals the more powers to steal. You can adapt to any situation easier
Samus - With everyone else fighting each other, this gives you time to fully charge the charge shot. The screw attack can also juggle multiple opponents (just like Mario's coin attack)
C. Falcon - The other players can be fighting each other, then you come up and do a Falcon Punch or something and blow them all away
MIDDLE TIER
DK - Same reasons as Falcon but considerably slower
Pikachu - Fast, quick strikes and a couple good finishing moves. This can be taken advantage of in 4-player matches more than 2-player since you can be quick and stealthy
Link - Does significantly better in 4-player matches. Bombs and endless sword slashes are put to better use.
Luigi - An inferior version of Mario as said by many. His Dash A is slightly more useful against multiple players (It's still useless though)
Jigglypuff - Attacks with the puffster work wonders when in the fray, especially sleep and Giant Punch; Sing can put multiple enemies to sleep
Yoshi - A couple good in the fray attacks, but otherwise a weak player; no third jump, and the second jump is so easy to see coming that it can be edgeguarded against easily
BOTTOM TIER
Fox - Lousy attacks, great speed; play like Pikachu without the big finisher
Ness - Ness should stick to 2 player battles. His attacks either leave him wide open for a counter, or are just not strong enough to cut it. His absorb and PK Fire are the only 2 useful attacks in his repertoire.
Any thoughts?
sirpsycho85
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2005
- Messages
- 6
I'll tier them assuming RANDOM BOARDS and FREE FOR ALL, and then give a little breakdowns for each guy.
GOOD
-----
Pikachu - fast attacks, fairly good priority in air. only problem is that his air moves are mostly damage dealing instead of impact moves.his save move is fast, which is much more important than his already good range because it makes it harder for someone to just run up and throw you again.
Captain Falcon - would be best character except he isnt fantastic at dealing damage on the ground in a one on one fight. the falcon punch actually becomes good when there are a lot of people cluttered, but otherwise his specials arent that good. His save is excellnt because its got solid range and moves quicky.
Fox - the best character if not for a slow save move. however, if its any board of decent size, hes my first pick. best d+A smash move because it hits both sides simultaneously. not the most powerful throw, but **** quick.
Mario - a trade off in speed with fox for a faster save move and a better shot, still one of the best.
Kirby - probably the best save overall. 99% of the time i go for the edge on a save even if i can make it back on to a platform, just so they can't throw right away. the segmented save move is best for this, because you can let yourself fall more below the edge, and just barely reach it and grab on.
Donkey Kong - save move is fine rangewise because the fat-*** doesnt fly far anyway. very often if they smash you out of the air they get hit at the same time, and then you have a second to recover and land w/o their presence. throw is fairly incredible, and the f+A air move (the flipping punch down). Also, because he skids a little on his save move, its safer with DK than with most characters to land on the actual platform when you save yourself. This is very important in boards where you cannot grab on to the edge. If i know for certain i am going to play one of those boards, i think DK is my pick.
USABLE
-------
Link - Just don't go off the edge in one on one. Might as well just die. Obviously he has a lot of power, and so for 2v2, he is exponentially better. Pairing him on a smaller board with any first tier character is better than 2 first tier guys because they can stay close enough together to cover for his slow throw, and otherwise link is very strong.
Ness - again, dont fall from the edge, but he has power.
Yoshi - same story as ness, but he doesnt have the PK fire. Better smash moves tho, and the quickest of the ranged throws by far.
DON'T USE SERIOUSLY
---------------------
Samus - if you're really good with him, pair him with a top character in 2v2 and you'll be fine. in one on one with nobody to cover for his throw, he has no chance. Its unfortunate because his u+B is easily the best on any board with grabable edges.
Jigglypuff - just weak. no point to use him over somebody like kirby.
Luigi - terrible and inferior mario
GOOD
-----
Pikachu - fast attacks, fairly good priority in air. only problem is that his air moves are mostly damage dealing instead of impact moves.his save move is fast, which is much more important than his already good range because it makes it harder for someone to just run up and throw you again.
Captain Falcon - would be best character except he isnt fantastic at dealing damage on the ground in a one on one fight. the falcon punch actually becomes good when there are a lot of people cluttered, but otherwise his specials arent that good. His save is excellnt because its got solid range and moves quicky.
Fox - the best character if not for a slow save move. however, if its any board of decent size, hes my first pick. best d+A smash move because it hits both sides simultaneously. not the most powerful throw, but **** quick.
Mario - a trade off in speed with fox for a faster save move and a better shot, still one of the best.
Kirby - probably the best save overall. 99% of the time i go for the edge on a save even if i can make it back on to a platform, just so they can't throw right away. the segmented save move is best for this, because you can let yourself fall more below the edge, and just barely reach it and grab on.
Donkey Kong - save move is fine rangewise because the fat-*** doesnt fly far anyway. very often if they smash you out of the air they get hit at the same time, and then you have a second to recover and land w/o their presence. throw is fairly incredible, and the f+A air move (the flipping punch down). Also, because he skids a little on his save move, its safer with DK than with most characters to land on the actual platform when you save yourself. This is very important in boards where you cannot grab on to the edge. If i know for certain i am going to play one of those boards, i think DK is my pick.
USABLE
-------
Link - Just don't go off the edge in one on one. Might as well just die. Obviously he has a lot of power, and so for 2v2, he is exponentially better. Pairing him on a smaller board with any first tier character is better than 2 first tier guys because they can stay close enough together to cover for his slow throw, and otherwise link is very strong.
Ness - again, dont fall from the edge, but he has power.
Yoshi - same story as ness, but he doesnt have the PK fire. Better smash moves tho, and the quickest of the ranged throws by far.
DON'T USE SERIOUSLY
---------------------
Samus - if you're really good with him, pair him with a top character in 2v2 and you'll be fine. in one on one with nobody to cover for his throw, he has no chance. Its unfortunate because his u+B is easily the best on any board with grabable edges.
Jigglypuff - just weak. no point to use him over somebody like kirby.
Luigi - terrible and inferior mario