Tier system flawed?

[The-Judge]

Today, I played Smash Bros Melee with my friend.

I used Pichu, he used Marth. Neither of us are bad players, being able to take 3 level 9 Bowsers. Not experts, but good players.

We first played on Final Destination. On the flat ground, it was nearly impossible to catch Marth in a defenseless pose, and it was very hard getting close. We had 3 lifes each, and he had 2 left when I had lost all 3 of mine. He had like 180 % with Marth on his second life, through...

Then, we played on Poke Floats. With no stable ground, Marth made many more openings jumping around. The unstable ground was no problem for Pichu with its great third jump and easy maneuvering. I had 2 lifes left with 50% when i defeated Marth on Poke Floats.

Later, we tried a few matches with other characters. I chose Yoshi, he chose Ice Climbers. It was a item match on Hyrule Castle. In direct combat, I stood no chance, but Yoshis good runningspeed and great jumping made it easier for me to get around and get items like Pokeballs, so i ended up defeating the confrontable more powerful Ice Climbers.

My point is that even weak characters can get uber if the type of match fits them, and strong ones can get weak compared to them if they are not in their element. So the tier system is flawed, as every character has a mode that makes it uber. Like Yoshi's true potential being in item matches, Ice Climbers's being in 1at1 itemless matches, Pichu on unstable ground, Marth on stable ground and so on.

 

[Kirbykrew]

Ice Climbers are weak to Yoshi

Just like to point that out.

 

[SuperLink9]

Thread #500.

The thing is, the tier system is based on the most fair stages, like Final Destination and Battlefield. Tournament play. That's what the tier lists are for.

 

[kitsuneboy_geoff]

Most unfortunately, the tier list is NOT, in fact, flawed. It should be obvious to anyone who plays the game that some characters are better. However, skill, guts, and a bit of ingenuity can allow weaker characters to defeat stronger ones. And yes, the stage does factor into it somewhat.

 

[kirborg]

Ofcourse some characters have an edge over others, and yes some stages give certain characters an advantage (Zelda temple + fox = ouch) but overal the tier lists still serve their purpose. You can't dismiss the whole tier system just because of some small inconsistencies.

 

[Cubemario]

You don't understand the concept of tiers, items and stages do not have anything to do with tiers. Also, stop constantly making useless topics.

EDIT: Also what the heck does this have to do with brawl?

 

[Foxy]

The tier lists are made with max-level players in mind, generally.

At the top of the game, characters are played flawlessly and theoretically identically every game.

Average smashers will never need a tier list as they have pretty random matches.

I assume you aren't the top of the pros.

 

[The-Judge]

So tournament play is not about item or stages? How do you define fair?

 

[Sideem Slingh]

Lol, a much better topic. But here's something; you allowed the influence of items in your game. That doesn't necessarily make Yoshi better than the Ice Climbers.

Other than that, tiers aren't flawed, nor are they absolute. They give the potential for the character at their maximum skill levels, which I'll mention now NO ONE HAS EVER ACHIEVED. So essentially, a Pichu can beat a Marth, and I wouldn't be too surprised. The tiers just say that under perfect, equal situations, a Marth would be more likely to beat a Pichu. Of course, perfect meaning Final Destination

Also, I think levels can really influence it too. Just the change from Final Destination to Battlefield can change things up enough. Tiers are just a loose system of rating characters from best (most potential) to worst (least potential).

 

[Stevo]

I didnt really read all the posts, but I do know that Tires don Exits.

Hope that helps

 

[The-Judge]

The tier lists are made with max-level players in mind, generally.

At the top of the game, characters are played flawlessly and theoretically identically every game.

Average smashers will never need a tier list as they have pretty random matches.

I assume you aren't the top of the pros.

Everyone can go around saying to each other they are not pros. Because my view is different dont mean i cant hang in a match againt them jedis playing smash bros on youtube. a Marth expert would kill me on Final Destination. But i would give him more than a challenge if it was a level with unstable ground. Yoshi would also lose again Marth in direct combat, but i would come up with a great fight if there was items and it was a big stage, because i as Yoshi eaiser would move around than Marth.

 

[The-Judge]

Lol, a much better topic. But here's something; you allowed the influence of items in your game. That doesn't necessarily make Yoshi better than the Ice Climbers.

Other than that, tiers aren't flawed, nor are they absolute. They give the potential for the character at their maximum skill levels, which I'll mention now NO ONE HAS EVER ACHIEVED. So essentially, a Pichu can beat a Marth, and I wouldn't be too surprised. The tiers just say that under perfect, equal situations, a Marth would be more likely to beat a Pichu. Of course, perfect meaning Final Destination

Also, I think levels can really influence it too. Just the change from Final Destination to Battlefield can change things up enough. Tiers are just a loose system of rating characters from best (most potential) to worst (least potential).

Every character got equal potential. Its just easier to use Marth's potential than Pichus, because Pichu has to move and attack all the time. Its not the potential of characters, but difficulity of controlling them. Every character got the same potential.

 

[Ja]

Tiers do ABSOLUTELY not give potential power, they give the current power as they are based on tournament results.

To understand tiers you need to understand the 1v1 tournament system as that is the data they are based on. Furthermore tiers only make claims about a characters current worth in 1v1 tournament settings (1v1, no items, neutral stages, counterpicks and bans, and current meta).

Also this thread is in the wrong forum.

Every character got equal potential. Its just easier to use Marth's potential than Pichus, because Pichu has to move and attack all the time. Its not the potential of characters, but difficulity of controlling them. Every character got the same potential.

That is completely false, some characters simply have better options than others. For example, Marth has the option to ken combo, pichu does not have a ken combo nor does he have anything remotely as powerful. Fox has the option to shinespike, pichu doesn't.

Now you'll probably want to say something like "Pichu can edgeguard differently he doesn't need a shinespike." And while that's technically true, it misses the essence of the argument as Fox can not only effectively edgeguard in more situations that Pichu, but Fox's edgeguards are also much more lethal.

Believing that all characters are equal is only being delusional. Oh and for the record, I think that a pro Marth would beat a pro Pichu (is there one? Chudat?) even if all the stages were chosen by the Pichu player and banned stages were allowed.

Remember, the tier list isn't static it can and has changed. If you think pichu has untapped potential then show us, win major tournaments with him.

 

[clace]

Actually, this is very VERY wrong. I don't mean to be egotistical but this is probably the post that will close this thread.

The tier list is based on tournament results, maps where marth, falco etc are weak are all banned, that's why they're at the top.

So no, the tier system isnt flawed.

 

[Sideem Slingh]

Every character got equal potential. Its just easier to use Marth's potential than Pichus, because Pichu has to move and attack all the time. Its not the potential of characters, but difficulity of controlling them. Every character got the same potential.

Haha, you are not going to have an easy time here. Games are always unbalanced; some characters have more and better advantages than others. No two characters in Melee have the same potential, and it will be the same in Brawl. If you think that a Pichu and Marth are equally good at the top of their game, you should train more and find out what it really is like.

I had to switch from Falco to Fox, because Fox was better, faster, and his advantages outweighed Falco's. Every character has their good points, but some have more than others.

Besides, if everyone's potential was equal, why did so many people play as Marth/Fox/Sheik?

 

[Firestorm88]

Tiers are for 1v1, no items, and in general for that type of play. Some characters have more good stages than others, ie Fox and Sheik don't really have any bad stages while Ganon sucks on stages like Final Destination. Character matchups are taken into account in general, Fox has no bad match ups really while Sheik is destroyed by Ice Climbers. Lots of different little things are taken into account. Don't take it as a rule.

Also, it's hard to say you're good when you use "can beat 3 lv9 cpus" as a measure of skill.

 

[The-Judge]

Tiers do ABSOLUTELY not give potential power, they give the current power as they are based on tournament results.

To understand tiers you need to understand the 1v1 tournament system as that is the data they are based on. Furthermore tiers only make claims about a characters current worth in 1v1 tournament settings (1v1, no items, neutral stages, counterpicks and bans, and current meta).

Also this thread is in the wrong forum.

In that case, Marth, Fox and Sheik are of course taking the top spot. But take in items, and characters like Yoshi and Kirby will most likely top them by far.Tier dont indicates what character is better than another, but which is better IN THE TOURNAMENT CIRCUMSTANCES. There is no better characters.

 

[The-Judge]

Tiers are for 1v1, no items, and in general for that type of play. Some characters have more good stages than others, ie Fox and Sheik don't really have any bad stages while Ganon sucks on stages like Final Destination. Character matchups are taken into account in general, Fox has no bad match ups really while Sheik is destroyed by Ice Climbers. Lots of different little things are taken into account. Don't take it as a rule.

Also, it's hard to say you're good when you use "can beat 3 lv9 cpus" as a measure of skill.

Not to say i am good, but so people wont start yelling I am a noob instead of actually debating.

 

[SuperLink9]

If you're not a professional level player, you can't really talk about a character's full potential first hand, with or without items.

 

[LunaEqualsLuna]

tier lists are only accurate for no-item Final destination etc battles.

These so called 'fair' stages, are only 'fair' to certain characters so especially those with strong ground games.

If you play the game the way it was balanced for (with items/all stages) then the game is more balanced and the tier lists will not be the same.. Anyway with online mode you can get in contact with the majority of smashers who do play with items and any stage, so probably their will be two tier lists in brawl:
A no item final destination one and an item/any stage one.

 

[:034:]

You annoy me so **** much.

Seriously.

Go read the Melee forums, don't post anymore.

Ever.

Please.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Of course characters are better on some stages than others..
Part of the reason why counterpicking stages is important, yes?
And some characters are better in item matches..but the tier list, to my knowledge, is based on PROPER TURNIMENT ROOLEZ LOL. That means no items. That annoys me in some respects, because having items on a level does show how good a particular player is, as it shows how the player can adapt to a situation.
That ranting aside, I hate you for posting all these topics, aaaaaaaand this belongs in the Melee thread.

 

[The-Judge]

You annoy me so **** much.

Seriously.

Go read the Melee forums, don't post anymore.

Ever.

Please.

You have a cool avatar

 

[joepinion]

Why does this thread exist? I'm pretty convinced The-Judge is a regular who is joking around... I mean, who thinks Pichu is great? EVEN THE DEVELOPERS point out Pichu's flawed nature.

Tiers are the most successful characters at tournaments given a very specific set of circumstances. No one influential is claiming that it's an absolute guide to who's the best. No one influential is claiming that no items on a small number of stages is the most fair. Those factors are just part of the tourney scene, and the tier list is a ranking of success in the tourney scene.

That is all.

 

[Cubemario]

Yes, beating level 9 cpu's especially BOWSER doesn't mean anything when it comes to skill. I can beat level 9 cpu's in my sleep, with no items on. Still doesn't change the fact I suck at melee.

 

[cHaNg-sTa]

Items do not balance the game. All the fast characters (Sheik, Fox, Falco, etc) all can grab items much faster and more easily than the slow low tier characters. Plus Fox's item throwing animation is incredibly fast.

Tiers measures a characters highest current meta-game. This just means in a straight on fight, he will have a greater advantage. Having items or wacky stages introduce doesn't magically make a character like Yoshi better than Marth.

 

[The-Judge]

Items do not balance the game. All the fast characters (Sheik, Fox, Falco, etc) all can grab items much faster and more easily than the slow low tier characters. Plus Fox's item throwing animation is incredibly fast.

Tiers measures a characters highest current meta-game. This just means in a straight on fight, he will have a greater advantage. Having items or wacky stages introduce doesn't magically make a character like Yoshi better than Marth.

No, but it gives Yoshi a bigger chance of winning than Marth.

 

[S2]

Even Final D is a stage that benefits certain characters over others. Although more subtle, even the neutral stages have character advantages/disadvantages on them.


Tiers are based on tournament results, which take all non-banned stages into consideration. They are also take into account a lot of tournament matches, as not every match is going to be a reflection of the tier list.

 

[The-Judge]

Yes, beating level 9 cpu's especially BOWSER doesn't mean anything when it comes to skill. I can beat level 9 cpu's in my sleep, with no items on. Still doesn't change the fact I suck at melee.

Just pointing out I am not a noob, not saying i am good. Childish people would otherwise come and say "noob, lol, we are right cause we are better and say so, even through we never played against you, lol, owned!"

 

[Ja]

Actually, this is very VERY wrong. I don't mean to be egotistical but this is probably the post that will close this thread.

The tier list is based on tournament results, maps where marth, falco etc are weak are all banned, that's why they're at the top.

So no, the tier system isnt flawed.

Eh sortof, not really. I honestly don't think Bowser or Pichu would suddenly become top tier if all stages were suddenly unbanned. They weren't in the early stages of smash when this was the case. Furthermore, isn't like every banned stage banned because it makes the better characters even stronger?

I mean every ledgeless walkoff stage is banned because Fox's waveshine, it is just too good there. Fox's lasercamping is just too good on Hyrule if you also aren't Fox or CF it's an autolose. Marth and Peach just totally abuse the large dividers on levels like Venom. The only case I can think of where a low tier gains an advantage would be Kirby and DK on the ledgless walkoff levels, however it certainly wouldn't make them more than midtier AND fox's waveshine is an even more lethal opponent.

Honestly, if there weren't any stage bans Fox would be God tier, as in literally unbeatable on counterpicks. So no the stage banning is not skewed in the high tier's favor, they make the game more balanced and actually give lower tiers a chance.

 

[kitsuneboy_geoff]

Items do not balance the game. All the fast characters (Sheik, Fox, Falco, etc) all can grab items much faster and more easily than the slow low tier characters. Plus Fox's item throwing animation is incredibly fast.

Tiers measures a characters highest current meta-game. This just means in a straight on fight, he will have a greater advantage. Having items or wacky stages introduce doesn't magically make a character like Yoshi better than Marth.

I can't agree with that. "Wacky" stages change the tier lists completely, as do items. For example, on the horrible abomination known as icicle mountain, Pikachu is at a horrible disadvantage; Thunder is unusable, dropping him to the bottom of the tier list. Captain Falcon's rising knee is ridiculously easy to hit people with, raising him in the tier list. In the same way, FD is bad more many characters, most notably the lower tier ones. They are, in fact, lower tier due to the conditions that the people who judge the tiers set.

That said, I still agree that Fox and Marth are far better than Yoshi and Pichu. That doesn't mean that Yoshi and Pichu are unuseable, but tournament rules do not help them become usable.

 

[bluethree]

Tiers do not matter in casual play. Stop trying to add items into the equation.

What tiers tell you is that if both characters are played to their absolute perfect potential which character has more of a chance of winning in a tournament setting. That means no items and only certain stages (though Pokefloats is a legal tournament stage).

A Marth player playing a nearly flawless game against a nearly flawless Pichu, even on Pokefloats, will win 9 out of 10 times at least. Your result with your friend doesn't matter at all. Familiarity with the character, familiarity with the stage, and how well each player was playing on the given day (I know I have days where I play poorly) could all be major factors.

I would like to reiterate, tiers absolutely do not matter in casual play. The only time they matter at all are in the highest level of tournament play.

 

[heety9]

whatever...this thread phails

 

[cHaNg-sTa]

No, but it gives Yoshi a bigger chance of winning than Marth.

How the hell does Yoshi have a better chance of winning than Marth? Items don't make the character all of the sudden better. Fox is the best character using items anyways.

Items introduce luck that is not calculated into the tier list because the tier list just measures a character's moveset and not what items he can use.

 

[bluethree]

For example, on the horrible abomination known as icicle mountain, Pikachu is at a horrible disadvantage; Thunder is unusable, dropping him to the bottom of the tier list.

The only time a Pikachu player should be using thunder is when the character is above the screen, which will still hit people on Icicle Mountain. Thunder is way too easily abused by anyone who knows what they're doing in pretty much any other situation.

</off-topic>

 

[cHaNg-sTa]

I can't agree with that. "Wacky" stages change the tier lists completely, as do items. For example, on the horrible abomination known as icicle mountain, Pikachu is at a horrible disadvantage; Thunder is unusable, dropping him to the bottom of the tier list. Captain Falcon's rising knee is ridiculously easy to hit people with, raising him in the tier list. In the same way, FD is bad more many characters, most notably the lower tier ones. They are, in fact, lower tier due to the conditions that the people who judge the tiers set.

That said, I still agree that Fox and Marth are far better than Yoshi and Pichu. That doesn't mean that Yoshi and Pichu are unuseable, but tournament rules do not help them become usable.

Characters like Fox, Sheik, Marth, and Falco can also take advantages on Icicle mountain with their speed and range. Nothing changes in this example.

 

[Hellbeing]

umm... you think pokefloats counts for tiers?

 

[loki42]

This is why there are very specific rules for who gets to pick stages and what stages are available in MLG SSBM rules.

 

[Ja]

In that case, Marth, Fox and Sheik are of course taking the top spot. But take in items, and characters like Yoshi and Kirby will most likely top them by far.Tier dont indicates what character is better than another, but which is better IN THE TOURNAMENT CIRCUMSTANCES. There is no better characters.

Items are random events so they have an equal chance of landing near character X as character Y. This leaves three factors to consider:

1. The speed of the characters. That is to say the absolute distance an item is from a character isn't the important factor, it's the relative distance (distance/movement speed) that matters. Here most of the better characters retain their advantage as they are generally speedy. Maybe CF moves up a tier and Peach down one.

2. The ability to use an item effectively. For example, characters with strong jumps can better chase people with a hammer. Falco has an amazingly high jump and he's already top tier. This would however make Samus at least a tier better as she can do all sorts of nasty exploits with hammers.

3. The ability to defend against items effectively. Since items are so random being able to survive an unlucky bomb-omb is important, this means character survivability becomes more important, stirring the tier list. However, spacies have shine and that is an extremely important defensive tool against almost every item. It also works as a type of offense as when pokeballs are thrown at their shine, they become the owner of the person's shine it hit.

The top characters excel at 1 and 3. Two is less important than one and three as most characters can use every item effectively. So this really isn't going to change the tier list that much. But I don't even have to use theorycraft here as items were used early on in tournaments and here is its tier list:
First tier list (October 8, 2002)
4.9: Sheik
4.8: Falco, Fox
4.4: Marth
4.1: Mario
4.0: Zelda, Samus, Luigi
3.9: Peach
3.8: Dr. Mario
3.5: Ice Climbers, Ganondorf
3.4: Pikachu, Link
3.2: Captain Falcon, Young Link
3.1: Jigglypuff, Ness
2.9: Yoshi, Donkey Kong
2.8: Roy
2.1: Kirby
1.8: Mr. Game and Watch
1.6: Pichu, Bowser
1.3: Mewtwo

 

[kitsuneboy_geoff]

The only time a Pikachu player should be using thunder is when the character is above the screen, which will still hit people on Icicle Mountain. Thunder is way too easily abused by anyone who knows what they're doing in pretty much any other situation.

</off-topic>

Actually, it won't in most cases. >.<

There's only a few spots in the stage where it'll hit anyone who isn't on one exact platform. Also, that isn't the only time to use thunder. Okay, well at least you said "pretty much" any other situation. XD

Characters like Fox, Sheik, Marth, and Falco can also take advantages on Icicle mountain with their speed and range. Nothing changes in this example.

Granted. I.M. doesn't change these characters. I was just pointing out that the stage can have an effect on a character's abilities.