Thunder's Combo Question

[[TIM]]

I've been wondering.. Is it possible for Fox to potentially thunder's combo all the cast that get knocked down from shine? And if not.. What do you guys think are the most optimal options out of a landed waveshine on the cast that can't be Thunder's comboed?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

To be real... it can just be smash Di'd up. What that means is, instead of a jab reset, they just pop up. How good is this for the whole cast? Idk, but with this knowledge, its possible, to never get a jab reset/thunder combo.

To find the most optimal stuff on people who don't do it, you could probably just find that on the melee boards. Most if not all of his melee stuff, transfers right over to PM.

 

[[TIM]]

To be real... it can just be smash Di'd up. What that means is, instead of a jab reset, they just pop up. How good is this for the whole cast? Idk, but with this knowledge, its possible, to never get a jab reset/thunder combo.

To find the most optimal stuff on people who don't do it, you could probably just find that on the melee boards. Most if not all of his melee stuff, transfers right over to PM.

I see what you're saying. But what i'm asking more specifically is if there are characters (without smash DI), in PM that slide too far for thunders combo to be executed. Also sure, it may be similar to Melee, but the cast is much bigger.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I see what you're saying. But what i'm asking more specifically is if there are characters (without smash DI), in PM that slide too far for thunders combo to be executed. Also sure, it may be similar to Melee, but the cast is much bigger.

These characters get knocked down by shine, sorted by slide distance from highest to lowest
Squirtle, Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, Game and Watch, Diddy Kong, Ivysaur, ZSS, Fox, Falco, Pit, Sonic, Toon Link, Wolf, Kirby, Pikachu, Meta Knight, Jigglypuff
[/SPOILER]
From the pure distance it should be possible from ZSS on (including her), there are some practical difficulties though.
ZSS and Toon Link knockdown animation is too low to get hit by the jab.
Multiple characters are too floaty to reach the ground again until (including) frame 13 of getting hit by the jab (if the connecting hit is frame 1), then they will not reset but simply land.

Spoiler

Not quite sure with the frame number, here is where it derives from:

Chesstiger2612:
I've got a question regarding resets.
Like in Melee, the resets are happening if a character who failed to tech and is still in his respective "failed tech" animation gets hit and now lands during a "got hit in his failed tech animation" animation which seems to last 13 frames (like in Melee iirc).
In theory the same is true if you hit a character on the ground who isn't in his failed tech animation anymore if he doesn't buffer a roll, getup or getup attack anymore. The animation has the same length but in this case the resets never seem to work.
Do you receive less knockback when hit in the failed tech animation, is there some kind of automatic DI in the second case or is the landing detection different?
This also might be the reason why resets work different in PM.
As example: While Marth can jab reset a Marth with no DI (inner hitbox) until 35%, it doesn't even work with 0% if he isn't in the failed tech animation anymore.
[...]

tauKhan:
I played around a bit with resets, so i'll post some observations:

If you get hit during DownBound (the missed tech animation that lasts 20+ frames) or DownWait (The state after DownBound during which you can do gu options) by a move that doesn't knockdown, you'll be put into the 13(?) frame DownDamage. In melee you would be put to DownDamage if the move does less than 7.00% damage, so that's a bit different. So in pm you can reset with any spike or move that doesn't send you too high that doesn't cause knockdown. Other difference is that if you get hit during DownDamage, you'll be put into regular hitstun, while in melee the DownDamage simply starts over again. This means that resetting with more than one hit, for example hitting twice with foxes drill doesn't work anymore, and neither does double jab counter sdi out of reset, because the second jab won't put you in DownDamage.

This last part includes a bit of guessing: If you are grounded on the last frame of DownDamage, you'll be forced to do a gu action. If you are still in the hitstun while the DownDamage ends, you can choose the gu action which the happens after the hitstun ends. If the hitstun ends before DownDamage, you'll do a gu stand. I don't know whether the end of DownDamage while you are in the air cancels hitstun like in melee. Also I think kb works normally on char that's in DownWait or DownBound.

I tried that marth jab reset on marth, and I was able to get the jab reset at 34% on DownWait consistently. It was a bit hard to hit with the weaker hitbox because in the DownWait the marth lies so low that you'll have to be at a specific spacing. It's easier to hit with the weak hitbox during DownBound.

[...]

It should work on: Fox, Falco, Wolf, Meta Knight (at percents which aren't too high)

Funny (and useful) fact: You can use f-tilt sourspot to reset characters like ZSS and Toon Link at low %s, because resets work a bit different in PM. You can also extend the range with it and hit Ivysaur (and Diddy Kong on imperfect timing or sloppy DI). Now if it is officially the Thundertiger combo, heard it here first. It would also be thinkable of to use dair as reset tool but it seems the additional jumpsquat frames allow a way out for most of the characters, and the characters that can be comboed by it can also be comboed by the traditional Thunder or the Thundertiger combo. Characters slippier than Diddy Kong will probably get the timing even if they missed tech and or DI, so techchasing makes more sense here.

@ Hinichii.ez.™ 's comment is also true, Thunder's combo always builds on missed SDI, so if you see an opponent avoid it once (so they don't get reset but instead land normally), punish the no-tech with a shine or an up-smash or techchase it if that's not possible.

Hope that answers your question.

 

[[TIM]]

These characters get knocked down by shine, sorted by slide distance from highest to lowest
Squirtle, Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, Game and Watch, Diddy Kong, Ivysaur, ZSS, Fox, Falco, Pit, Sonic, Toon Link, Wolf, Kirby, Pikachu, Meta Knight, Jigglypuff
[/SPOILER]
From the pure distance it should be possible from ZSS on (including her), there are some practical difficulties though.
ZSS and Toon Link knockdown animation is too low to get hit by the jab.
Multiple characters are too floaty to reach the ground again until (including) frame 13 of getting hit by the jab (if the connecting hit is frame 1), then they will not reset but simply land.

Spoiler

Not quite sure with the frame number, here is where it derives from:

Chesstiger2612:
I've got a question regarding resets.
Like in Melee, the resets are happening if a character who failed to tech and is still in his respective "failed tech" animation gets hit and now lands during a "got hit in his failed tech animation" animation which seems to last 13 frames (like in Melee iirc).
In theory the same is true if you hit a character on the ground who isn't in his failed tech animation anymore if he doesn't buffer a roll, getup or getup attack anymore. The animation has the same length but in this case the resets never seem to work.
Do you receive less knockback when hit in the failed tech animation, is there some kind of automatic DI in the second case or is the landing detection different?
This also might be the reason why resets work different in PM.
As example: While Marth can jab reset a Marth with no DI (inner hitbox) until 35%, it doesn't even work with 0% if he isn't in the failed tech animation anymore.
[...]

tauKhan:
I played around a bit with resets, so i'll post some observations:

If you get hit during DownBound (the missed tech animation that lasts 20+ frames) or DownWait (The state after DownBound during which you can do gu options) by a move that doesn't knockdown, you'll be put into the 13(?) frame DownDamage. In melee you would be put to DownDamage if the move does less than 7.00% damage, so that's a bit different. So in pm you can reset with any spike or move that doesn't send you too high that doesn't cause knockdown. Other difference is that if you get hit during DownDamage, you'll be put into regular hitstun, while in melee the DownDamage simply starts over again. This means that resetting with more than one hit, for example hitting twice with foxes drill doesn't work anymore, and neither does double jab counter sdi out of reset, because the second jab won't put you in DownDamage.

This last part includes a bit of guessing: If you are grounded on the last frame of DownDamage, you'll be forced to do a gu action. If you are still in the hitstun while the DownDamage ends, you can choose the gu action which the happens after the hitstun ends. If the hitstun ends before DownDamage, you'll do a gu stand. I don't know whether the end of DownDamage while you are in the air cancels hitstun like in melee. Also I think kb works normally on char that's in DownWait or DownBound.

I tried that marth jab reset on marth, and I was able to get the jab reset at 34% on DownWait consistently. It was a bit hard to hit with the weaker hitbox because in the DownWait the marth lies so low that you'll have to be at a specific spacing. It's easier to hit with the weak hitbox during DownBound.

[...]

It should work on: Fox, Falco, Wolf, Meta Knight (at percents which aren't too high)

Funny (and useful) fact: You can use f-tilt sourspot to reset characters like ZSS and Toon Link at low %s, because resets work a bit different in PM. You can also extend the range with it and hit Ivysaur (and Diddy Kong on imperfect timing or sloppy DI). Now if it is officially the Thundertiger combo, heard it here first. It would also be thinkable of to use dair as reset tool but it seems the additional jumpsquat frames allow a way out for most of the characters, and the characters that can be comboed by it can also be comboed by the traditional Thunder or the Thundertiger combo. Characters slippier than Diddy Kong will probably get the timing even if they missed tech and or DI, so techchasing makes more sense here.

@ Hinichii.ez.™ 's comment is also true, Thunder's combo always builds on missed SDI, so if you see an opponent avoid it once (so they don't get reset but instead land normally), punish the no-tech with a shine or an up-smash or techchase it if that's not possible.

Hope that answers your question.

This is exactly what I wanted! Thank you.

 

[Boomhound]

I've been F-tilt resetting from shine for over a year and I'll continue caling it an Ftilt reset..

It's quite easy to do tho and is still useful when your opponent's % is too high to reset as it can set up an edge-guard- I down angle these.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It was a joke man

Also, to be helpful, here are the maximum percentages for the f-tilt reset (before the f-tilt hits, so if you view the entire Thunders' combo you also have to account for the shine) on all characters on that Thunders' combo with f-tilt reset works:

Spoiler

Jigglypuff: 5%
Meta Knight: 24%
Pikachu: 22%
Kirby: 13%
Wolf: 48%
Toon Link: 26%
Sonic: 27%
Pit: 20%
Falco: 50%
Fox: 61%
ZSS: 38%
Ivysaur: 7%
Diddy Kong: 32%

 

[lain]

The most optimal thing to do against characters like squirtle and lucas who slide WAY too far is just run that direction. At least that's what I do. Most people who get shined down like that typically roll away so just start running after them to keep pressure up. After that they might get wise and try to mix it up so be aware of this; if they start standing up, get up attacking, or even rolling inwards then that just makes it easier to follow something up!

Probably the best option imo on characters that you can thunders' combo is to waveshine into a running upsmash. It's a great combo starter at low percents and can also kill at high