Thoughts on the Design of PM Yoshi

[Ssbm_Jag]

I would preferably like input mainly from people who play yoshi in melee and PM. I am pretty good at PM yoshi and have been playing PM for at least a year now. Here are some concerns I have about PM Yoshi. Feel free to discuss and talk if you have other concerns.

1. His model is too big. For recovery purposes, I feel this is a huge disadvantage when comparing it to recovering in melee. Maybe it just so happens the top tiers in melee aren't good at edge-guarding yoshi, but trying to recover against pm ganon who has quite large, I'd even say disjointed hitboxes, on his fair, bair, and not-so-much his dair can be ridiculous, but luckily you can always recover high. Recovering against Ike can be ridiculous too. Yeah yoshi in brawl had to struggle with being bigger in brawl as well, but at least egg toss gave height and clanked with grounded moves. If he's not bigger in pm, and I'm seeing things, tell me. But I'm certain he is. Getting knocked out of double jump is a necessary problem for yoshi in melee and brawl, but in brawl if you were hit off stage, you could recover with up-b and float a bit and grab ledge. In pm, you're bigger/likelier to be hit out of your second jump, and you pretty much have to play it like melee and wiggle out of tumble or egg-roll which is not good imo because:

2. Egg roll is terrible and gimmicky and not the best design for a recovery imo. I might even say worse than melee in some regards. I could be wrong about this so correct me please if I am, but if you are hit off stage and you try to egg roll back, you don't get your dbl jump even if you never used it. If that's true, it's ridiculous. Even if it's not, egg roll still isn't that great of a recovery due to how obvious it is, because recovering smartly with dbl jump, dj+airdodge, or dj+bomber ledge snap always beat dj jump+egg roll unless you're already over the stage and you want to land in a tricky way, but melee egg roll is better for that because I'm pretty sure your fall acceleration in your egg is quicker than in pm and the main thing is that when you initiate egg roll, you stall your momentum. Superarmor on egg roll startup could possibly make this move better in neutral and for recovery, but I'm not going to advocate for that. The only practical use I see this move having is ledge hop egg roll, but that's it and abusing this is gimmicky play.

3. Egg lay, for the most part, is gimmicky, not good, better than melee, but not as bad as egg roll imo. In melee, egg lay has 3 uses. 1. Prevent sheik from shielding all the time. 2. Separate the ice climbers. 3. Desperate fast fall+egg-lay against fast fallers to cheese them out. That's it. Yeah it's longer in range in this game, and it's harder to punish as a result, but it doesn't rank with the other command grabs in PM, which is fine. I believe egg lay mechanics should work like smash 4, where the amount of time you're in the egg scales with your percent, even at the price of less range.

4. Grab. I don't really care that they took away grabbing aerial opponents, that's fine. What annoys me is how in project m, if you run and grab someone, it takes about a half-second worth of "eating" animation before allowing you to act. In melee, if you run and grab, it virtually warps the opponent into your mouth instantaneously and you can buffer down-throw quicker so they get less time to DI. In brawl, I don't think follow-ups existed, so the speed at which the grabbing animation grabbed the opponent didn't matter.

5.Down tilt. Still a great move in melee and pm. In melee, you can only get a guaranteed follow up if you perfect wave dash. In PM, you might be able to grab with a wave-dash dash grab as a follow up, but I think it'd be for the best if the move had lower set kb. If they never change this move, I won't care.

6. Down-b. I'm not sure it was fixed but in 3.5 the move's hits didn't always link. As for damage this move is fine.

7. Rising aerials. They're a good concept for yoshi offensively, but I feel they are very unsafe when not guaranteed. Even edge-guarding with them is unsafe I feel. If you jump out and try a rising aerial against falcon, and you get grabbed by his grab box, I'm pretty sure you're dead. In melee, djcs are great because you can land quickly with an aerial and if you get hit, you've probably touched the ground and can recover. If you throw out a rising aerial and miss, you better land smart or else you're dead.

8. Combo game. Not really gonna complain too much about this, it's pretty straight forward. If the pm devs think egg roll is an integral part of it, I think they're wrong, unless there's some godlike setup for egg roll that actually makes the risk low of using egg roll. Melee up-air was the best thing to happen to PM yoshi as I felt he was suffering from having few combo tools on regular speed-fallers.

9. No Parrying. This is honestly the reason I think PM yoshi is worse than melee yoshi. You have a giant model for yoshi and you can't use it to your advantage. Yoshi's roll is sooooooo bad, and I'm pretty sure if you let go of shield at the end of your roll, you still get exiting-shield animation, whereas in melee you are free to act immediately and d-tilt/jab/parry. I could be wrong about this mechanic not also being in pm. Parrying is so necessary to yoshi being good, I honestly think it's a reason aMSa didn't main pm yoshi. I think falco in pm is a worse matchup for yoshi in pm than in melee solely because this mechanic is gone.

10. Try being in full run and down-smashing in melee, then try it in pm. I'm pretty sure it's longer/harder to do in pm because you have to wait until your crouch is fully over to d-smash or else you'll dash attack, which is not a mechanic in melee. Why is down-smashing out of run important? In melee and I'm assuming brawl, yoshi is one of, if not the only character who's run is faster than his dash animation, I believe this way made because of how crucial run-> down-smash is to melee yoshi's follow up game while dash dancing with yoshi's giant model is mostly pointless in pure neutral, but whether or not yoshi was program this way for a purpose or by accident in melee, it works this way to yoshi's benefit. D-smash is slower in PM by one frame. The whole thing that makes yoshi's d-smash so good it that it's fast with a terrible frame disadvantage on shield. Make it slower and it's more risk more reward and that makes yoshi less consistent and ultimately a worse character. I'm pretty sure it's stronger in terms of kb though, and that helps but I don't think it was necessary at all. Wave-dash d-smash is still amazing, but d-smash doesn't edge guard falcon as good as it did in melee, as in pm if you d-smash falcon at the wrong time, his grab box literally warps you into his up+b and it's really janky and absurd. Overall, his up-smash and f-smash are fine.

11. The amount of freedom and control you get on egg toss is less than in melee, but the eggs are supposedly "high in priority" according to the pm site, but do 8 damage as opposed to 12 in melee. I think the move is worse and I think edge cancelled eggs suffers because of this. Still a good move. Running off stage and snapping to ledge with egg toss is harder to do in pm than in melee, but this specifically might be one of the many cases of pm yoshi just being different than melee yoshi and me not knowing this, just like the visual cues for wavelanding in pm and melee are different.

12. Pivot grab is great and even though it was nerfed, it's certainly better than melee's pivot grab.

My personal conclusion: PM 3.6 Yoshi has been given many tools to succeed and even lower the skill floor from melee so that he's more accessible. Unfortunately, his advanced techniques (ECE is worse imo and Parrying) have been removed and has been given high damage output on some attacks and some novel yet seemingly unimportant brawl tactics for a melee engine (rising aerials are really good but risky/not consistent). I think we will not be seeing consistent high level PM Yoshis until necessary changes are made to make yoshi more consistent, yet still technical, like Game&watch and Ike...or even melee yoshi (who's dair is better than 3.6 yoshi!). Made to be OP on a beginner level and lacking on a mid-high level is how I see pm yoshi. One of melee yoshi's flaws is lacking the ability to combo floaties (says on the wiki too, not just me), and this problem hasn't really been addressed in PM other than having rising aerials and f-air which are extremely inconsistent to land, whereas most characters in the game have better setups. At the end of the day, no one's forcing me to use rising aerials, so I don't, except for up-air and fair in select cases. Yoshi's still an ok character and I believe he ranks in the mid-low tier region while mostly benefiting from people not knowing the match-up, but it's really hard for me to say he's really good or better than melee yoshi at a high level of play. I really have wondered who on the pm team conceptualized yoshi's design for pm. I'm ok if his neutral is bad, as playing around the standard neutral is what makes yoshi so hard to fight and so good, but pm 3.6's yoshi's style by the nature of his design is very random and inconsistent.

If you read this all, thanks. From reading old melee boards, I know people are going to argue egg lay and egg roll are good moves, and that the gimmicks work for them so therefore they are objectively good. But I won't criticize you for it as my opinions are here, and if you can tell me how they actually work well as opposed to what I see are more consistent and reliable options, please let me know. Also, I'm pretty sure the recent nerf is a direct result of hamyojo beating strongbad, but I'm not saying it was.

 

[pugwishbone17]

3. The move has a few more uses than that. It allows for pretty fast air to ground tech chases, as well as a pretty dramatic momentum change via b-reverse and wavebounce, which mixes up movement, and even recovery if you choose to go the high route over stage. It also basically gives free stage positioning if you land it. For a command grab with the speed, range, and mobility it provides, I would say it's very good.

4. The only times I find this a problem is when using standing grab and one of the very last hitboxes are the ones that land. At that point I would be pretty grateful just to get the grab lol. Pivot grabbing (which you should pretty much use exclusively) has a much faster "grab-to-throw" animation where most of the people I play end up not DIing on reaction.

6. It's quite the opposite now. It was changed in 3.6 from being a guaranteed frame 3 kill move basically to something where the strong hit will only connect off the pop up if they're actively DIing in and not crouch cancelling (which wasn't possible in 3.5). It was dumb the way it was before and the changes are pretty justified.

7. Well, you get your jump back if you get hit by falcon's up b, but it's only an unsafe edge guard option if you're fighting a character that makes it that way (you wouldn't go do a rising nair on a PK thunder recovery or firefox)

8. I assume you say this based off the project m website's description of Yoshi, which is based on 3.0, where egg roll was a braindead, safe move that comboed into anything and everything on the ground.

9. Parrying is not in this game because as of right now it's not possible to program correctly, and if it was fully in the game then that combined with being able to jump out of shield would be broken. Parrying was "so necessary to yoshi being good" simply because yoshi out of shield options were literally non-existent because he couldn't jump. In PM, Yoshi however still has secretly some of the best oos options in the game thanks to double jump landing.

10. I don't really get it, you can down smash out of run like you can with any other character in this game. You might just be trying to do it out of dash, which no one can. It might just feel harder for Yoshi because his dash is decently long. The thing with falcon doesn't look like it happens in melee because yoshi's tail does not extend nearly as long as it does in PM. Yoshi shares a hurtbox with his hitbox, and grabboxes > hitboxes, so naturally the grab will just go to where you're at. This happens with every hitbox, yoshi just has some horizontally large hitboxes.

11. I can't remember right now, but I believe Yoshi's eggs do 12% at first and decay to 8% like any other move in the game. It's like this in Melee too. If I'm wrong then trust me, priority >>>>>> damage. Yes, running off with egg throw is significantly harder than melee and it's probably an oversight that PMDT might not have noticed, since I don't think there are many actual Yoshi mains in there. The subtle differences can be annoying, but the timings are just something you have to get used to.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the response although I disagree with a lot.
The egg toss damage I got off the 3.6 frame data thread and afaik it's only 8%. No, I'm not going to trust you when you say priority beats damage if its a 4% difference when you can throw eggs smartly in the first place so that they hit.
I figured your reply to 10 was the case with falcon.

I would gladly take parrying over jumping out of shield. Not receiving shield stun is godlike and most smart players don't throw unsafe things on shield. I feel this is one of the many reasons melee yoshi is viable at high level play. This is just my opinion and I feel melee yoshi wasn't able to jump oos for a reason. If the reason parrying is not in because of programming, I will be very sad. I bet ill still be hearing from every pm player until the end of time, "oh yeah yoshi can parry in this it's just like melee" because of the website statement stating the return of parrying when it was just parrying grabs. Lol I bet yoshis model is so big his jump squat doesn't even duck under grabs like it does in melee. So even when you could parry grabs I bet it didn't work if you tried to jump during the opponents grab box active frame.

Egg roll was dumb in 3.02, l agree with that. But not as dumb as pk fire. You didnt see top yoshis in 3.02 anyways, and I feel if given the time, the meta could find easy solutions to 3.02 egg roll. I feel yoshi should be able to come out of egg roll as fast as 3.02 but the player should have to time the egg breakout like melee, very preemptively.I still think its a bad move against any smart player.
One thing you say that confuses me is that yoshi should exclusively pivot grab. Do you not play melee yoshi? There are times you have to dash grab.
I'll respect your opinion on egg lay since pm yoshis I see like to abuse it to oblivion, and most yoshis here will probably disagree with my opinion egg lay isn't not that good. I haven't tried tech chasing with egg lay but I feel in most cases wavedash dash grab is better.

 

[pugwishbone17]

Having priority on eggs is way better for covering yourself or edge guarding. Not to mention the fact that the eggs don't break on a timer means that you can actually control space meaningfully while in melee literally everyone and their mom's aerial will break it. 4% does mean much anyway since Yoshi is pretty known for his damage output on his other moves mixed with his combo potential.

Parrying is only really amazing on paper. Not everyone can be aMSa for good reason, and even he's still not 100% consistent at it. There are also easy ways to beat parry in melee, like multihit moves. I'm sure if you did the math, you would find that double jump landing out of shield after taking shield stun from an attack in PM is faster than no shield stun and going through the frames of dropping shield in Melee. Also why would you even jump out of the parry frames when you parry a grab in 3.5 when you can just jump out of shield after the fact? his jump squat was completely irrelevant when it came to parrying grabs in older versions of PM.

Comparing egg roll to pk fire doesn't really make sense since PK fire was rightfully changed too. The reason you never saw top level Yoshi players in 3.0 is because for one, Yoshi is historically seen as a subpar character with a tech ceiling not worth going through the trouble of learning, and two, because most people will want to stick with what they know instead of trying something new. Most of the players that did pick up Yoshi in 3.0 resorted to the degenerate egg roll style of play which didn't work at a high level.

I dont' find myself making dash grab attempts from max range that often, that's way too unsafe and just a bad idea in neutral. any spot closer is pretty much in pivot grab range. Just because I play Yoshi in Melee doesn't mean I have to have habits and force myself to only using dash grab when there is an objectively more safe option.

What I meant by tech chasing with egg lay is pretty specific in that you can get a down throw to full hop fair on some characters, but if they tech roll then follow ups are near impossible unless you use neutral b. It's very good for this purpose. Footstool techrolls are the same way.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

"Parrying is only really amazing on paper. Not everyone can be aMSa for good reason, and even he's still not 100% consistent at it."
-I don't think you come close to understanding why parrying is so good. Of course amsa isn't going to be 100% consistent at it, but he's definitely consistent at it and makes it work at a high level of play. Your dj land idea is nice, but I haven't seen a single pm yoshi become even 1% consistent at it, so unless I see that it can truly replace parrying, I will have to disagree. Everyone can be aMSa if they practice and understand that parrying is not as reactionary/physical as people think/commentators say, but more of positioning, awareness, and reading/mental. Amsa literally parries in the same scenarios in the same matchups, you just haven't noticed yet. If you truly think parrying is only good on paper, I'd encourage you to try fighting good falcos in melee as yoshi without parrying. In melee, one thing that makes yoshi's shield drops amazing is his platform control and the fact that he receives no shield stun. With shield stun in pm, I feel yoshi's standing grab is worse. I would really like to write pages of why I believe you are wrong about this, but if you prefer jumping out of shield, I'll respect that.

If you will take more priority over less damage and less control over egg trajectory (which I know you didn't say, but it's how it currently is in PM), that's fine. I agree with you that the eggs not exploding is pretty nice. I personally believe yoshi's combo game is good and bad. Good in that if you start something you can combo hard, but bad in that his neutral suffers and setup typically requires a punish or movement tricks, unless you want to fish for fairs.

That's actually a pretty good statement you made about why we didn't see top pm yoshis, as people don't like picking yoshi up. However, even if egg roll was susceptible to spamming at a low level of gameplay, that doesn't necessarily make it great at a high level of play. Regardless of whether 3.02 egg roll was broken or not, my opinion is that 3.6 egg roll is not that good. :/

You didn't specify you were talking about neutral with that pivot grab exclusively statement. When I said you need to dash grab, I meant mostly as a tech chasing tool. We were on two different pages. I think we both can agree dash grab in neutral isn't the best idea unless they shield a lot, and pivot grab is better in neutral.

I notice some yoshi's like down-throw to fair, but personally I prefer down-throw to up smash and then follow up with eggs or grab (depends if they're floaty/fast faller), yeah it's not stylish and it's too easy to do, but it gets the job done. Down-throw to up-smash is a true combo on someone as light as zss from 0-95% with no di (or at least that's what it says in my personal data stash for zss, I could be wrong but I doubt it since the move has a kbg of 25.) There are other some other tricks yoshi has off throws, but those are my secret techniques :x.

 

[pugwishbone17]

I'm fully aware of how parrying works and I do implement it when I play in the same way you say aMSa does through prediction and just overall pattern recognition. That said, parrying is still useless on several moves like fox's down air, or drill shine in general. It's also absurdly difficult to parry ground moves even if you see them coming. The pros to parry are nice and all and it's really satisfying when pulled off, but having to actively think more than your opponent just to play on the same level is a pretty big con in my opinion. Like I said, parrying is good on paper because on a TAS level ever single move with hitboxes more than 8 frames apart will be parried. Shield dropping is really the only other amazing thing to come out of Yoshi's lack of shield stun in melee besides being able to punish unsafe attacks, but shield dropping is still just as viable PM. I'm one of the only Yoshi players I can think of right now that fully uses double jump landing oos, I have no idea why others don't because it is extremely easy with tap jump on.

Yeah I guess it's just a difference in play style. I don't really use grabbing for tech chases that much, which is where I can see how dash grabbing is most useful.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I guarantee you 100% as a friend, if you do not use dash grab for tech chasing in melee, you cannot be playing melee to its fullest, or at least the falco, falcon, and fox matchups for that matter. Leffen once said to those thinking like you with regards to multi-hit moves, in an angry tone, The reason parrying is so good is because it forces the opponent to throw out multi hit moves! Think about that and let it settle in. I can't really say why that's extremely, extremely, non-intuitively profound, but I'm sure if you give it enough thought, you can understand how. Because there's even better things to come from that info rather than just forcing your opponent to throw out multi hit moves. There are more secrets/tricks like that that come with parrying you just need to realize them. Other benefits that come with lack of shield stun include parry grabbing as well as being able to perfect shield dairs like ganondorf/samus/falcon that are extremely hard to parry consistently, yeah you have a little lag coming out, but I usually get the follow-up. Also, with shieldstun, I forget that I can lightshield which I never forget in melee lol, but that's a personal problem.

I'll definitely lab up dj-landing though, so thanks for the concepts. If I have to work with jumping out of shield, I might as well get the most out of it.

 

[pugwishbone17]

Talking in theory like Leffen isn't really something I care about. Once the opponent realizes you're baiting out multihit move or any other anti-parry tech, then they can adapt and counter you just as well, except the chance of their character having more tools than yoshi is far more likely. This is what's keeping yoshi from having actual positive matchups in Melee. Going off that, Yoshi in PM has several more tools than he ever did in melee, trading just parry and the rest of his shield properties for them puts PM yoshi at an equal or greater level without the difficulty of needing to learn how to parry to stand a chance.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

If that's how you see it, then I don't think we can convince each other otherwise.

 

[Feral Cadence]

Personally, I'd like to try a more Melee-style Yoshi, balanced for PM. I like what the PMDT is trying to do with balance, but I fear it comes at the cost of too much homogenization. Melee characters feel more unique because they have to work their neutral around completely different moves that are all unsafe in a lot of situations. I know it's bad to compare both games like that, and I frequently discourage it from a lot of my own Melee-centric scene, but Melee Yoshi feels way more unique, and just needed a few adjustments to make him really viable without needing to devote your life to getting his tech consistent.

This is all going to just be my opinion, some subjective conjecture, but I wish I could play with the idea. I like the idea of a smaller model. Yoshi also feels too rubbery in PM, and I'd like to see his down-tilt, bair, and down-smash have a nerf in range, while having a small disjoint so they don't get flat out beat like they now do sometimes. I don't want them as small as they were in Melee, necessarily, but right now the range feels a bit absurd.

Parrying would be cool, but the PMDT would need to be able to fix Yoshi's current shield issues AND reinstate light shielding in order for Yoshi to have any decent shield options.

I'm not really sure why Yoshi is so much floatier in PM. I think it has to do with his rising aerials. I don't think I'd change that, as I don't know all the context for its change. Maybe this paragraph is unnecessary, but I'm keeping it anyway!

Side B definitely needs a change, and I doubt you'll find anyone who likes it the way it is. It just needs a solid reason for existing. Is it a recovery move? Great, make it more useful in the air. Is it a tech-chase tool? Alright, make it safer to break out of close to the opponent. 3.0 was both of those, as well as too safe in neutral, so it was naturally OP, but they nerfed its use in all situations.

I'm not exactly an expert on design and balancing, of course. I just think the idea of playing around with more unique designs has some merit.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Absolutely, I forgot how important light-shielding is for yoshi! It's a great escape tool and sets yoshi up for ECE.

 

[Getsafe]

Yoshi doesn't need Parry and Light Shield in PM because he can jump out of shield now and, by extension, DJL OoS which is broken af. They should fix the poke bug though.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not agreeing either.

I'm just curious, what great applications could come from DJL OoS? I feel like it'd be very situational and djc nair is a better combo tool so you might as well just jump OoS with a djc nair. I feel dropping shield and grabbing or djc nair always beats this option. The only reason I could think this tech beats the other options is for d-smash or a very situational jab combo, and I wouldn't call it broken, just good. Regardless, I see no PM yoshis using this, but I sincerely hope one will and go far with it.

 

[Getsafe]

DJL is faster than dropping shield which is a big plus.

DJL Dsmash and Down B are really great kill punishes for laggy moves on your shield (13 and 11 frames respectively)

DJC Nair is great out of shield too, but different situations call for different things.

DJL jab OoS is 9 frames, same as SH Nair which is 2 frames faster than DJC Nair along with more/better follow ups and being less committal. If Nair will kill though obviously just do that/Dsmash/down b depending on character, %, positioning, etc.

Being able to do any move out of shield with 6 frames of start up (and one frame of armor on the last frame) is a big advantage. Yeah 6 plus the start up of your move isn't super fast, it's great considering grab is ridiculously slow and you can do any move you want.

Ftilt and Utilt are frame 12 out of shield which, again, isn't particularly fast but is still a great option.

It's obviously not as good as the parry, but he still doesn't need it

 

[Feral Cadence]

I was only making the point that if parry were to be implemented, then jump oos would probably have to go, and by extension, light shielding would have to implemented as well. Otherwise it's too easy to pressure Yoshi's shield. It's not a necessary change, and I think it's probably too drastic a change considering how much work it would take to program in there. I just like the idea of a Yoshi with completely different options compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[Damp]

The biggest reason why Yoshi can't compete in PM is because he can't do any quick defensive options. He can't jump out of shield for 6 frames, there's no parrying, and his shield only works half the time anyway.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

his shield only works half the time anyway

?

 

[Feral Cadence]

Yoshi turns invisible while in shield, so you can't see that his foot pokes out of his egg on the bottom front side. Not to mention the fact that if you get hit during the first 6 frames of shield animation (before he's in the egg) Yoshi sometimes just gets hit anyway. That last part might have been patched when they got rid of grab parrying, but idk. I haven't tested it.

 

[Getsafe]

Yoshi turns invisible while in shield, so you can't see that his foot pokes out of his egg on the bottom front side. Not to mention the fact that if you get hit during the first 6 frames of shield animation (before he's in the egg) Yoshi sometimes just gets hit anyway. That last part might have been patched when they got rid of grab parrying, but idk. I haven't tested it.

Dude that's normal anyways. Shield is frame 7 for the entire cast. Unless you're saying his has 13 frames of startup? But I doubt it

 

[pugwishbone17]

*sigh*

Okay, in 3.5 and before Yoshi had that parry problem on the first 6 frames of shielding. 3.6b fixed that where if Yoshi is hit during the first 6 frames, he just automatically goes into shield anyway. This is the same on every character. Shield is active frame 1 for everyone. The difference yoshi has is that he has a 6 frame animation he does that cannot be jumped out of, no one else has such an animation, and can jump out of their shield on frame 1. Yoshi has to wait until his shield is physically visible (frame 7) for him to jump out. Really the only disadvantage is, is that Yoshi has to wait longer than anyone to do anything after a shield-stop. That's it.

 

[Damp]

Overall, PMDT decided that PM Yoshi is supposed to play like Melee Yoshi,but didn't take into account that he's like double the size in PM and floatier. So basically we're playing Melee Yoshi on Giant Melee and Slowmo mode without parrying or lightshielding, but we can jump out of shield...after 6 frames.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

pugwishbone17 I think you were right about eggs being better in project m than melee. That being said I still wish the trajectories could be like melee. Just a little update. I think the fact that Yoshi is given so much stage control and pressure on flat stages with eggs that don't pop really help his neutral game on stages without platforms, which is arguably parry or bust in melee. I have a strong feeling some aspect of this will get patched in the future.